The Forgotten JFK Assassination tapes

The Forgotten JFK Assassination tapes

A couple of days ago now a thread appeared on ATS called: New video of JFK's shooter? (Grassy Knoll footage) this thread authored by ATS member MentalPriapism. Now, admittedly, I was a bit surprised to see some of the posts in this thread, particularly from those not already aware of this film - one which is very well known already, probably the second most famous film captured of the assassination of JFK, second only to the film captured by none other than Adrian Zapruder.

Due to this however, the fact people don't seem to be aware of any film coming out of the JFK assassination other than the Zapruder film, I thought It would be a pretty good idea to start up this thread and bring forward the other films specifically from the witnesses on the ground - with a little but if discussion about each film thrown in there too.

Before I do this though, let me explain that yes, unfortunately there is still only 1 film that has managed to capture the entire series of events from start to finish and that's the film already previously mentioned, the Zapruder film. And none of the other films show us anything overly "ground-breaking" as well otherwise, quite frankly, they would be a very vocal point of discussion today...

But, the ones we do have tell us something very interesting still. Many of the witnesses captured the events leading up to the assassination as well as the events just afterwards so the fact we have quite a few of those films will give us a good insight into the suspected shooting positions for example - especially as many of the films show witnesses running up the knoll. In fact, watching the aftermath of the assassination can tell us more about where the shots came from than if we were to actually see it for ourselves.

I also assumed that since people don't seem to be aware of any other film other than Zapruders one, the other "forgotten about" films would at least be something they'd like to be given an opportunity to see, even if nothing that breaks the case is shared. This is an analysis I hope I'm right in..

So, bearing this in mind, here are some of the other JFK Assassination tapes...

The Zapruder Film

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Abraham Zapruder can be seen in the famous Nix film (this film is shown below). This image of Abraham is shown here:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/9146482a480a.jpg[/atsimg]

Here is some information about his film:

On 22nd November, 1963, Abraham Zapruder filmed the motorcade of President John F. Kennedy. He later explained to Wesley J. Liebeler about the background to the filming. "I didn't have my camera but my secretary (Lillian Rogers) asked me why I don't have it and I told her I wouldn't have a chance even to see the President and somehow she urged me and I went home and got my camera."

According to Jim Marrs: "Zapruder made a fourteen-mile round trip drive home to pick up his camera.By the time he returned, crowds were already gathering to watch the motorcade." Zapruder told the Warren Commission: "I thought I might take pictures from the window because my building is right next to the building where the alleged assassin was, and it's just across 501 Elm Street, but I figured - I may go down and get better pictures, and I walked down. I believe it was Elm Street and on down to the lower part, closer to the underpass and I was trying to pick a space from where to take those pictures and I tried one place and it was on a narrow ledge and I couldn't balance myself very much. I tried another place and that had some obstruction of signs or whatever it was there and finally I found a place farther down near the underpass that was a square of concrete I don't know what you call it maybe about 4 feet high." Zapruder decided to take his receptionist, Marilyn Sitzman, with him to Dealey Plaza.

Abraham Zapruder went on to tell Wesley J. Liebeler: "I heard the first shot and I saw the President lean over and grab himself like this (holding his left chest area)... I thought I heard two (shots), it could be three, because to my estimation I thought he was hit on the second - I really don't know. The whole thing that has been transpiring - it was very upsetting and as you see I got a little better all the time and this came up again and it to me looked like the second shot, but I don't know. I never even heard a third shot."

On his return to his office he told Lillian Rogers " to call the police or the Secret Service... I just went to my desk and stopped there until the police came and then we were required to get a place to develop the films. I knew I had something, I figured it might be of some help - I didn't know what." Zapruder's colour film shows the entire assassination sequence and became an important part of the evidence looked at by those investigating the assassination.

By 25th November, 1963, Zapuder's film had been sold to Life Magazine. In charge of the purchase was C. D. Jackson, a close friend of Henry Luce, the owner of the magazine. According to Carl Bernstein, Jackson was "Henry Luce's personal emissary to the CIA". When appearing before the Warren Commission, Zapruder claimed he received $25,000 and then gave this money to the Firemen's and Policemen's Benevolence. However, when the contract was eventually published it showed that Zapruder received $150,000 for the eighteen-second film.

Zapruder later testified before the Warren Commission, and the CBS: The Warren Report. The Zapruder Film was also an important part of the evidence used by the Warren Commission.

Abraham Zapruder died of cancer in Dallas on 30th August, 1970.

(Source)

Please see the above image once again to see the exact location of Adrian.

For research purposes, I've also added this video here with all the frames numbered. It's proven to be a good research tool for myself in the past and I'm sure it will for others in the future.

This is yet another interesting link on the famous film that some may find interesting: The Zapruder Film

The Nix Film

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Here's the original picture from the Nix film, allegedly showing a shooter, which has caused so much discussion over the past years:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/cfb3d4f200b6.jpg[/atsimg]

Here, if we look at the home movie captured by Mark Bell for example, one captured of the exact same spot on the knoll just from a slightly different angle (further to the right), we can see that the alleged figure is simply no such thing. It's the light reflecting off the wall due to the large tree to the left obstructing the light from the sun causing the illusion of "something", or "someone" if you will, present here.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/760b7fa7bf4b.jpg[/atsimg]

Due to this we need a theory for why we're seeing a figure. So, is there one? Yes. A theory I propose is called Pareidolia. Now, pareidolia is something I've discussed in a separate thread on ATS before but instead of explaining it all in full detail here and now (read the thread for that), the best explanation I can give of what it does is this: Pareidolia is something that everyone reading now will experience at some point today - It's that common.

Pareidolia, simply put, is seeing familiarity in everyday objects. It's the sole reason why we see familiar shapes in clouds for example, It's the reason why we can see familiar shapes in other everyday objects too. It's the brain "making sense of chaos" if you will. And, IMO, It's the reason why many people can see a figure in the original nix film - the light is reflecting in such a way to fool the brain into thinking something is there - It's the making sense of the chaos. Please do read the above thread though for a longer explanation into the nature of Pareidolia.

A source on Pareidolia: Pareidolia

To further try and debunk the theory of a shooter being present here, try having a look at the famous Moorman Photo, approximately 0.2 seconds prior to the fatal shot struck:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/7007bff6702b.jpg[/atsimg]

No shooter can be seen. It's also worth highlighting that JFK in his limousine is further down than Moorman taking this picture. If a shooter was present here, he would have to be elevated in such a way he would show up in this photo, but as we can't see him here and this is roughly at the exact same time JFK was struck, the only conclusion we can come to is he isn't there which is then where the theory of Pareidolia comes in.

The "Nix shooter" theory is what I consider debunked.

Now, these are the two main films of the assassination. Moving on, and already speaking of the Bell film however..

The Bell Film

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The above is the film captured by U.S. mail carrier Mark Bell. Unfortunately he hasn't managed to capture the assassination itself, but he did manage to capture just prior to it, as well as the events just after. I assume he turned his camera off after seeing the president, saw the assassination take place, then immediately turn it back on again as it looks quite frantic.

This film, to me anyway, is particularly interesting as he managed to capture the entire series of events after the assassination. In other words, he captured the reactions of the witnesses, and when/how they reacted. For JFK researchers this is potentially very important. Also, and as I highlighted above when discussing the Nix film, the Bell film also gives us another great view of the Grassy knoll, but from a slightly different angle. This enables us to debunk the theory of a gunman in plain view as some believe when seeing the Nix film.

Towards the end of this film we also have a glimpse at the TSDB, this being in the aftermath of the assassination.

The Hughes Film

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This is the film captured by witness Robert Hughes. According to some, at around 25 seconds in, this film was tampered with to hide the reaction from Kennedy of the first shot fired - as we can allegedly see him pulling back his hand and minor reactions from others.

This theory has been given a slight bit of credibility as other films, ones shown below, have seemingly been tampered with, or have missing frames, in the exact same place as this film again, potentially hiding the very first shot which took place as the car was turning onto Elm street.

The Robert Hughes film, much like the Bell film, seemingly shuts off after seeing the president only to be turned back on again upon hearing shots as Hughes has missed the assassination itself and captured the aftermath, particularly the sheer amount of witnesses running to the knoll in search of a shooter. Unfortunately this film also seems to malfunction towards the end making viewing it much harder.

The Bronson Film

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This is the film captured by JFK Assassination witness Charles Bronson. Nothing special was captured apart from the moments leading to the assassination but from a afar. If anything, it's an interesting perspective.

Here's an interesting snippet about him and his film:

For 45 year-old engineer Charles Bronson, November 22, 1963 was the culmination of a lifelong goal to see a president of the United States in person. Along with his wife, Frances, he traveled to Dealey Plaza with not one but two cameras, a Leica Model III for taking still photographs and a Keystone Olympic K-35 for filming color home movies.

The Bronsons stood atop a concrete pedestal in Dealey Plaza at the southwest corner of Main and Houston streets. When an ambulance arrived in the plaza to pick up an epileptic seizure victim a few minutes before the motorcade reached the area, Bronson filmed a short sequence “to capture that little bit of excitement,” not realizing that he also captured a portion of the Texas School Book Depository building on film.

As the presidential limousine drew near, Bronson filmed another brief sequence with his home movie camera before switching to take two still photographs as the car approached the turn onto Houston Street. Switching cameras again, Bronson filmed the limousine as it traveled north on Houston Street. He was holding his Leica camera, ready to take another still, when the first shot was fired and he instinctively snapped a photograph.

Within seconds, as the shooting continued, Bronson raised his home movie camera. His two-second clip captured the fatal shot to President Kennedy. Frances Bronson was watching through binoculars and did not realize what was happening. “I didn’t pay any attention to it,” she recalled in her 1996 oral history. “In fact, it didn’t register on me until Charles said, ‘Let’s get out of here. That’s a gun.’ ” The Bronsons immediately left the scene, and it was not until he returned to work that afternoon that he learned the president was dead.

(Source)

The Muchmore Film

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This is the film captured by Mary Muchmore, and what I primarily find interesting about this film occurs towards the very end. We can see just how slow the car is going by the time Kennedy is struck, we can also see SS agent Clint Hill frantically running to the aid of Jackie and John.

Again, please read an interesting snippet:

Marie M. Muchmore (August 5, 1909, Ardmore, Oklahoma – April 26, 1990, Dallas, Texas) was one of the witnesses to the assassination of U.S. President John F. Kennedy in Dallas, Texas, on November 22, 1963. A color 8 mm film that Muchmore photographed is one of the primary documents of the Kennedy assassination. The Muchmore film, with other 8 mm films taken by Abraham Zapruder and Orville Nix, was used by the Warren Commission to investigate the assassination and to position the presidential limousine in a forensic recreation of the event in May 1964.

Muchmore was born Marie Mobley in Ardmore, Oklahoma. Her mother was half Chickasaw Indian. One of her sisters, Aurelia, became a noted operatic soprano under the name Lushanya Mobley (1906–1990). Marie had no children.

Muchmore was an employee of "Justin McCarty Dress Manufacturer" in Dallas (707 Young Street which was four blocks south of the Texas School Book Depository), and was in Dealey Plaza with five other employees, including Wilma Bond, who had a still camera. She set up her 8 mm Keystone movie camera near the northwest corner of Main Street and Houston Street and awaited the president’s arrival. The Muchmore film consists of seven sequences: six before the assassination, and one during the shooting. Muchmore began filming the presidential motorcade with her movie camera from her initial location near the northwest corner of Main Street and Houston Street as the motorcade turned onto Houston Street into Dealey Plaza. She then turned and walked with Wilma Bond several yards northwestward to again film the President's limousine as it went down Elm Street. Her film then captured the fatal head shot, seen from about 138 feet (42 m) away. The film ends seconds later as Secret Service agent Clint Hill, attempting to protect President Kennedy, runs to, then, quickly climbs board the accelerating limousine.

Muchmore sold the undeveloped film to the Dallas office of United Press International on November 25, 1963, for $1,000. It was processed by Kodak in Dallas, and flown to New York City. It appeared the following day on local television station WNEW-TV. The film now belongs to the Associated Press Television News, which restored it in 2002.

While visiting her family in Oklahoma for Thanksgiving, Muchmore told them about the film she had taken of the assassination; her family then told the FBI about the film. The FBI initially interviewed Muchmore in December 1963, during which she admitted she had a camera with her but denied that she took any pictures of the assassination scene. The FBI was unaware of the film's existence until a frame enlargement was published in the UPI book Four Days: The Historical Record of the Death of President Kennedy in January 1964. A subsequent FBI interview in February 1964 says:

Mrs. Muchmore stated that after the car turned on Elm Street from Houston Street, she heard a loud noise which at first she thought was a firecracker but then with the crowd of people running in all directions and hearing the two further noises, sounding like gunfire, she advised that she began to run to find a place to hide.

(Source: Wikipedia: Mary Muchmore)

The Towner Film

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This is the film captured by 13 year old Tina Towner from the corner of Elm and Houston Street. Here is the position of Tina Towner as seen in the famous Zapruder film to have an idea of her approximate position:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/c4382aa0327d.jpg[/atsimg]

And here's an image captured by amateur photographer, Hugh Betzner, Jr., of her exact location:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/36b74d83b58c.jpg[/atsimg]

This film is very interesting as, according to some researchers, it shows the exact timing of when the first shot was fired. Unfortunately though, the film is damaged at this exact time - the previous film I discussed, the Hughes Film, was damaged at the exact same time as the Towner film also.

Here's an interesting source discussing the film:

At 13 years old in 1963, Tina Towner was already experienced in using her father’s Sears Tower Varizoom home movie camera. “He let me take all of the photographs,” she remembered in her 1996 oral history. “I took quite a few movies with that camera.”

Excused from school on November 22, 1963, Tina accompanied her parents, James and Patricia, to Dealey Plaza to view the presidential parade. Around 11 a.m., the family positioned themselves in Dealey Plaza on the southwest corner of Elm and Houston streets, across from the entrance to the Texas School Book Depository. Jim Towner took a still photograph while Tina, standing to his right, used the family’s home movie camera to capture a film of the motorcade as it turned onto Elm Street, seconds before shots were fired.

Having served in the military, Jim Towner recognized gunfire immediately. He later recalled, “Pat said, ‘Oh mercy, some fool is shooting firecrackers.’ I said, ‘That’s no firecracker. That’s a .30-06 rifle.’ ” Minutes after the shooting, Tina filmed a few additional seconds of footage. “When I finished shooting the pictures of him coming around the corner, I hadn’t heard the film finish up. So, I took a few more pictures or frames after that.” This final sequence showed the grassy knoll in the aftermath of the assassination.

(Source)

The Paschall Film

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This is the film captured by Patsy Paschall. Much like the Bronson film, this film gives us yet another view of the moments leading up to the assassination, as well as the chaos which ensues after it, but from afar.

It's an interesting perspective on the witnesses in the aftermath.

It's also worth noting that Patsy Paschall shot this home movie from the northwest corner of the Old Courthouse building, across Houston Street from Dealey plaza.

The Darnell Film

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This is the film captured by James Darnell. In the beginning of the video we can see he captures the immediate aftermath of the assassination, particularly the Newman family sitting on the other side of the road. Later we can see Darnell filming of the scenes on-going behind the knoll shortly after the assassination tad taken place.

We can, in particular see a policeman and a man being moved along by this policeman - this man wearing a fedora. What's interesting is this man, upon seeing James Darnell and his camera, attempts to shield his face from it. I find this particularly interesting this image has been circulating of a suspicious man behind the Knoll by some witnesses, I believe before the assassination had taken place but I could be mistaken:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/289dca5f3483.jpg[/atsimg]

The image of this man and the one seen in the Darnell film isn't too different and quite possibly could be the very same gentleman.

I went onto re-watch this fascinating interview with witness Gordon Arnold also. He notes that before the assassination he was told to move away from his position (behind the knoll), by a man in a suit - whether it's the man in question though, who knows. Something to ponder over though. hat he claims after is very startling as well and is certainly worth a watch.

The Jefferies film

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This is the film captured by George Jefferies of the moments leading up to the assassination of Kennedy. He gives us a glimpse into the amount of people present on Main street as well as a good view of John and Jackie. Towards the end of this film we get a very good view of the Texas School Book Depository building as well - I believe this view is from the very next day though.

The Wiegman film

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Dave Wiegman Jr. was a cameraman in one of the follow up cars in the presidential limousine. After the assassination we can see him, in the above video, jumping from his car and running towards the knoll, presumably in search of a shooter.

We can then see him run back and film the Newman family situated on the knoll - both of them on the floor fearing more shots.

Here's a picture taken by witness Richard Bothun. In it we can see the exact position of cameraman Dave Wiegman, the man taking the above video:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/a75661159312.jpg[/atsimg]

The Daniels Film

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This is the film captured by Witness Jack Daniels. He managed to capture his film while being situated on the other side of the triple overpass with his sons, in it we can see the car travelling at quite a speed - this time the president has been shot. Oddly though, we can also see some of the witnesses waving. They're seemingly oblivious to the fact the president had just been shot multiple times despite the shooting taking place just a couple of hundred yards away from them.

Unfortunately we can't see much inside the car though as 1.) He hasn't managed to point his camera there adequately and 2.) He stopped filming as the car is going past him.

Here's a snippet which attempts to explain why we can see someone waving in the above film though:

Jack W. Daniel hoped to capture a home movie of President Kennedy against the picturesque backdrop of Dealey Plaza, especially the area now known as the grassy knoll. “My original plan was to go across the street about even from where... [Abraham] Zapruder was, so I could film back towards the Dealey Plaza, being the most photogenic place,” he recalled in his 1997 oral history.

However, even more important to Daniel than a natural green background was the opportunity for his three young sons to have a clear view of President Kennedy—and vice versa. At the last minute, he instead selected a less crowded area on the west side of the triple underpass. He recalled, “I thought it would be a little more personal thing—the boys waving at the president, and the president waving back.”

Armed with his pistol-grip Argus home movie camera, he purposely stood several feet behind his children so that they could be captured on film waving at the president. “I told my boys, ‘Now when the motorcade turns off of Main Street, start waving because he’ll be here in seconds.’”

Seconds later, Daniel and his sons heard shots being fired, but two of his sons continued to wave as the motorcade emerged from the triple underpass. As the limousine sped past their position in a blur, Daniel captured the confusing scene on film.

(Source)

The Mentesana film

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This is the famous film captured by Ernest Charles Mentesana of the aftermath of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. In this film we can clearly see policeman talking among themselves seemingly deciding what steps they need to take in the assassination aftermath.

The Dorman Film

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This is the film catured by Elsie Dorman - quite possibly one of the worst camera users on the day of the assassination. Due to the poor control of the camera we can't really see much at all. In fact, the only thing this film does give us is the approximate position of Tina Towner holding her camera on the corner of Houston and Elm street.

The Martin Film

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This is the film captured by witness Jack Martin. He's seemingly in a position in-between Tina Towner and Robert Hughes at the time he's filming the president on Houston street. We can also, for a brief moment, see President Kennedy on Elm street.

In this film we can't see much else other than the reaction of some of the witnesses in the immediate aftermath of the assassination.

The Couch Film

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Much like Dave Wiegman Jr., Malcolm Couch, the man taking the above film, was also in one of the follow up cars filming the events take place. What he shows us is a scene of utter chaos. People are running around not sure what to do, others are looking scared and so on.

Towards the end of this video we can see a policeman park his motorcycle by the street, presumably to later run up the knoll.

What's interesting about this video however is something which appears towards the beginning just after the assassination had taken place. We can see a policeman who's seemingly running into the Texas School Book Depository. Now, on record we have the name of this policeman - his name is Police officer Marion Baker. Here are some screenshot's from the above couch film of him seemingly running to this building and I'll explain why this is significant soon:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/aace99cbc1bd.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/082fae8a8e84.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/d3e43f79c66e.jpg[/atsimg]

The blue arrow pointing towards the TSDB - his apparent route.

Now, upon entering the building, Baker originally claimed to have come across Oswald on the second floor lunchroom - This lunchroom being the very same one where Carolyn Arnold saw him before the assassination at approximately 12:25 (the assassination taking place at 12:30).

Other witnesses around Dealey Plaza though, witnesses such as Howard Brennan for example claim that the person they saw on the 6th floor - the person whom was in the position Oswald is claimed to have been in during the assassination itself was taking place, stuck around for a few seconds after the assassination, seemingly watching the car speed away. Also, the fact we can see Baker running into the building in the Couch film means he was running in around 10 seconds before the Warren Commission claimed.

He also came across Oswald around 90 (now 80 it seems) seconds after the assassination. But, the fact he went in earlier, and the fact witnesses saw a gunman remaining on the 6th floor window looking out means Oswald has by far less time to run down to the 2nd floor lunchroom, gain his breath and stand around "looking relaxed". And all this without being seen by anyone..

Here is what witness to a 6th floor shooter, Howard Brennan, claimed btw:

Even as I hit the ground, my first instinct was to look back up to that man on the sixth floor. “Was he going to fire again?” I wondered. By now the motorcade was beginning to speed up and in only a couple of seconds the President’s car had disappeared under the triple underpass. To my amazement the man still stood there in the window! He didn’t appear to be rushed. There was no particular emotion visible on his face except for a slight smirk. It was a look of satisfaction, as if he had accomplished what he had set out to do. He seemed pleased that no one had realized where the shots were coming from. Then he did something that puzzled me. Very slowly and deliberately he set the rifle on its butt and just stayed there for a moment to savor what he had done, like a hunter who has “bagged his buck.” Then, with no sense of haste, he simply moved slowly away from the window until he disappeared from my line of vision.

(Source)

Not a single witness saw Oswald outside of this 2nd floor Lunchroom as far as I'm aware. I'd hazard a guess and say he didn't even leave it while the assassination was going on outside. I certainly don't feel he has enough time to achieve what's claimed of him.

Anyway, thanks for reading this thread and thanks to those who took the time to watch very short videos, ones people are seemingly not aware of. There's only 1 truly famous film, but It isn't the only one we have...

Thoughts?

Originally posted by Rising Against
This film is very interesting as, according to some researchers, it shows the exact timing of when the first shot was fired. Unfortunately though, the film is damaged at this exact time - the previous film I discussed, the Hughes Film, was damaged at the exact same time as the Towner film also.

Thanks for all this important footage and information my friend, I will go look into it all when I have more time for it.
But I find it on the forehand already quite remarkable if not very suspicious that both films seem to be unfortunately damaged at that same exact moment.

reply to post by spacevisitor


It's also worth noting that some claim to have heard a noise resembling a "firecracker" at the moment the car turns onto Elm from Houston street. This being the moment where both films are damaged. Here's a snippet from the OP:

Mrs. Muchmore stated that after the car turned on Elm Street from Houston Street, she heard a loud noise which at first she thought was a firecracker but then with the crowd of people running in all directions and hearing the two further noises, sounding like gunfire, she advised that she began to run to find a place to hide.

When the shots occurred is so difficult to work out. We have multiple witnesses claiming to have heard 2 shots in quick succession towards the very end of the assassination, we have some claiming to have heard shots before any struck JFK and so on.

For all we know there was at least 5 all in all. Or any other number even.

reply to post by Rising Against


Many thanks for taking the trouble to put this together - I remember the day well (I was at boarding school, we didn't have access to TV or radio, and our housemaster explained what had happened while we listened in silence). I thought I was pretty well informed, but I never knew there were so many cameras working on the day. Star & flag, of course.

I wonder if there could be a way of highlighting solid factual resources like this so members can easily find them? If we search only by numbers of flags or stars we're likely to find some terrible nonsense, but material like this has lasting value, and goes beyond speculation and opinion.

Good compilation. The only thing I'd add is a better version of the Hughes film, because this one seems to be cropped. The interesting thing for me on this film is he caught a couple seconds of the "sniper's nest" just before the assassination.

I couldn't find a good copy on YouTube, but here's one on Daily Motion (you have to watch a 30 second ad first)

www.dailymotion.com...

Wow RA I had no idea there were so many films from that day. Excellent work and as always first class thread. Thanks to you I have learned more about this fateful day than I have ever known. Thank you. I remember that day, I was in a classroom in Nashville when a teacher rushed into the room and made my teacher turn on the television. There in black and white was a news report on the assassination. We kids couldn't believe it was true.S&F

reply to post by NIcon


Now that is a great version of the Robert Hughes film. It's soo much clearer too.

Star for bringing forward such a great version of that video. I hope one of the mods hand out an applause for you too.

reply to post by Rising Against


I want to thank you so much for the time and effort you put into these. I feel I have learned more about this day from you then I ever did in school. I wonder if even the teachers I had are aware of all you have come up with and I went to some very good schools.

I agree with the poster above about the oddity that two films are damaged in pretty much the same time frame. That surely can not be a coincidence. A shame most of the world or this country at least are so clueless about the depth of what actually went on that day.

Again thank you for taking the time to give me a proper education. S&F obviously.

reply to post by lonegurkha


Thanks LG and to onehuman as well.

It's such a fascinating conspiracy theory really, It's hard not to become entranced in it I guess. Anyway, thanks for the kind words and I'm glad you guys feel like you've been able to learn something from these JFK themed threads I continually write up. It's, and always will be, the intention.

Excellent job as always, RA.

You need your own JFK forum at this point. There's so much content here to explore.


S+F.

there still hasn't been created a JFK forum at ATS yet? i remember a thread concerning the creation of one and everyone was totally on board with the idea, come on ATS - get on the ball

sorry had to mention that as i noticed this was in the 'general conspiracy' forum.

very interesting thanks for the post, i'll have to look further into this

Thank you, RA, for putting all of these films in one place. Some I had not been aware of before this. I was unable to watch the last one, but will later.
After all these years, I STILL get choked up over this tragedy. Perhaps because this event was the marker for the "death of the age of innocence"? Perhaps because this event was when my country noticeably took a downward spiral? I'm really not sure why, but I can state that his assassination still affects me deeply.
S&F

Aside from the apophnia of all the footage. One thing that blows my mind is to see the limo slow for what alledgedly would be the perfect shot from the knoll. The drivers foot had to have been on the brake at perfect timing with the head shot..

I really love your threads Ra. You seek the bottom, long past where I have become so discouraged and disheartened by the loss we suffered that day. I think John Fitzgerald Kennedy deserves hero status in
the heart of every american. A war veteran who must have known he was making enemys that would take him out.Obviously he was moved by the love of the people. I was four years old when he went down and I still mourn the man. Evil certainly had it's day. R.I.P. John, God love ya.



Just click you tube link underneath the vid. I don't understand why they think disabling does a G-D thing. Drives me nuts.

reply to post by Rising Against


A star and flag doesn't do this thread justice! Great work and thanks!

reply to post by Habit4ming

I was unable to watch the last one, but will later.

The screen shots of who we suspect to be Police officer baker which I added underneath are the main points of discussion from that film anyway.

They prove, if it really is him, that the Warren Commission was off by 10 seconds in regards to when they say he entered the building thus giving Oswald less time to reach the 2nd floor which was where Baker ran into him.

Under the Moorman pic you state:

"No shooter can be seen. It's also worth highlighting that JFK in his limousine is further down than Moorman taking this picture. If a shooter was present here, he would have to be elevated in such a way he would show up in this photo, but as we can't see him here and this is roughly at the exact same time JFK was struck, the only conclusion we can come to is he isn't there which is then where the theory of Pareidolia comes in."

If you follow my theory that the shot from behind the picket fence was the FIRST shot that hit the President in the throat...and that Lee Bowers saw two people back there, as did Ed Hoffman, they would already have left their position, the shooter would have tossed the gun to his associate who broke it down and dropped it in his tool bag (as per Hoffman). The shooter then assumed his rôle as the fake Secret Service agent encountered by the policeman after the shooting.

The fatal shot simply couldn't have originated from behind the picket fence as the attitude of the President's head at Z-312 was downwards. Since the entrance wound was in the right front temple and the exit mass was the right rear (occiptal-parietal area). the only place that shot could have come from is the storm drain to the right front of the limousine. Had he been hit from behind the picket fence in the right front temple, the exit wound would have been the left rear, not the right.

...thx for taking the time, ra...

...i thought that oswald was either in a photo or a video taken of the front of the tsbd just prior to the assassination... have you (or anyone else) heard that before?...

reply to post by AlNavis

Hey there, thanks for your post. First off though...

If you follow my theory that the shot from behind the picket fence was the FIRST shot that hit the President in the throat

I disagree. It's an impossibility that the first shot came from anywhere near the picket fence. The injuries sustained to Kennedy don't indicate a shot from this position in the slightest and we can't forget about the wounds to Governor Connolly at this time also - injuries which are occurring at the exact same time as Kennedy thus are more than likely from the same shot.

Where did this shot come from? Most probably the Texas School Book Depository of the Dal-Tex building.

President's head at Z-312 was downwards.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/8aba2ea4b4fb.gif[/atsimg]

This being frames 312 and frame 313.

This however, if anything, indicates an initial shot from behind. And I'm sure you'll agree here but witnesses did claim to hear 2 shots in quick succession. Lee Bowers, the witness you just brought up for example, Mary Moorman in her recent interview being another and others too.

So, It's certainly possible that between frame 310 and frame 315 for example we are seeing John F. Kennedy react to 2 different shots as he shows a forward movement in frame 312 and a sharp move to the back and to the left in frame 313 on wards.

Personally I suspect that the individual whom struck JFK in the throat fired once again and struck him in the head at frame 312.

reply to post by Wyn Hawks


Hey there Wyn Hawks.

...i thought that oswald was either in a photo or a video taken of the front of the tsbd just prior to the assassination... have you (or anyone else) heard that before?...

You're thinking of the Altgens photo. Here it is:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/ba0b9b8995d2.jpg[/atsimg]

Once we zoom in on the doorway of the Texas School Book Depository we can see this figure:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/f1aed41d3085.gif[/atsimg]

Personally, I don't think It's Lee Harvey Oswald though. Instead, I suspect it's a man called Billy Lovelady - here's a mugshot of him to compare with the man in the above image for example:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/0e3a5a74d11b.jpg[/atsimg]

Here's some information on him also:

Billy Nolan Lovelady was born in Myrtle Springs, Texas, on 19th February, 1937. He worked as a farm labourer until finding employment in the Texas School Book Depository in December, 1961.

On 22nd November, 1963, Lovelady was working on the 6th Floor of the Texas School Book Depository. He was sitting on the steps outside the building when President John F. Kennedy and his motorcade went past. He told the Warren Commission that the shooting came from "that concrete little deal on that knoll". Afterwards, Lovelady and his friends ran towards the Grassy Knoll but they went sent back by the police in that area.

Later it was discovered that Lovelady appeared in a photograph taken by J. W. Altgens at the time the shooting took place. Some researchers have claimed that the photograph was of Lee Harvey Oswald rather than Lovelady. This issue was looked at by the House Select Committee on Assassinations. They claimed that the man in the photograph was Lovelady and not Oswald.

Billy Nolan Lovelady died in January, 1979, during the HSCA hearings.

(Source)

Hope that helps.

...thx for validating that my memory hasnt gone totally to hell...

...since the fbi said it was lovelady in that pic - it probably wasnt... lovelady was working on the 6th floor and he has a fbi mugshot... i think thats very interesting...