Atheist group tries to sue Gov. Perry for prayer rally

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
Reply to post by traditionaldrummer

 

No grey area involved.

Word for word from the Constitution, it is a no brained.

No, there really is a gray area and it's not exactly a no-brainer. Using political office and influence to promote an exclusive religious event is an area subject to legal scrutiny and cannot be settled simply by examining the semantics of Article One.

reply to post by Glass


He is using his position in office to promote a religion...THAT is the problem. If he wants to go to church and worship that's fine. If he wants to worship in his backyard naked that's fine. It stops being his right to worship when he uses his office to promote the thing. That's when it crosses the line. Politics and religion should NEVER mix.

Originally posted by ReluctantBlossom
Politics and religion should NEVER mix.

...but it does --- always has here cuz xtians are the majority and there is no way to seperate a person's actions or opinions from their programming (except for electroshock therapy but thats an ugly avenue)...

Reply to post by traditionaldrummer

Did Congress make a law?

Did Texas make a law?

The answer to both is no, so just by the words used in the 1st amendment, His actions are permitted.

I would love to see the mental acrobatics as people try to claim unconstitutionallity


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Originally posted by ReluctantBlossom
reply to post by Glass

 

He is using his position in office to promote a religion...THAT is the problem. If he wants to go to church and worship that's fine. If he wants to worship in his backyard naked that's fine. It stops being his right to worship when he uses his office to promote the thing. That's when it crosses the line. Politics and religion should NEVER mix.

How is he using his political office, other than his name being associated with being Governor of Texas?

* Is he going to award and/or punish people through legislation for what happens at this event?
* Is he banning people of other faiths from attending this event?
* Is he using Texas State Treasury funds in any way for this event?
* Is he using Texas State property in any way for this event?
* Is he using Texas State employees while on duty in any way with this event?
* Did he use his office to get out of paying any of the local or state fees to hold this event?

Reply to post by ReluctantBlossom

Seems the founding fathers disagree with you. Politics and religion go hand I'm hand. You should really do some thorough research, and not just of Jefferson's questionings of mainstream Christianity.


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Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Well, it says this: "Sec. 1. FREEDOM AND SOVEREIGNTY OF STATE. Texas is a free and independent State, subject only to the Constitution of the United States"

They must honor the 1st Amendment.

Their Section 6 addresses matters of religion, though Perry may not be in violation of it's wording.

OK. So are you accusing Governor Perry of influencing the U.S. Congress to pass a law affecting free speech or freedom of religion then?

reply to post by Ferris.Bueller.II


Those are questions that need to be answered. I think if anything, the only amount of "federal assets" that may be used in this is the car ride and gas to the stadium that is holding the event.

Originally posted by WolfofWar
reply to post by Ferris.Bueller.II

 

Those are questions that need to be answered. I think if anything, the only amount of "federal assets" that may be used in this is the car ride and gas to the stadium that is holding the event.

"He gets paid by taxpayer money and therefore is using treasury funds illegally!"

...in 3...2...

/TOA

Reply to post by Ferris.Bueller.II

With the exception of the first two, all are legal, by precedent, though I do not agree with them

Funny how no one seems to notice that Congress prays before every session by a Chaplain who is payed using taxpayer money. Has been that way since 1789. And there is the precedence.


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Originally posted by WolfofWar
I think if anything, the only amount of "federal assets" that may be used in this is the car ride and gas to the stadium that is holding the event.

...you really think rp is gonna ride to houston in a car?...

...he'll fly (helicopter probably)... texan taxpayers will also pay for his security detail, his press sexretary, his hair stylist and his usual ten cans of hairspray, his personal nose-hair trimmer, etc - but - we're stuck with that bill everyday...

Reply to post by Wyn Hawks

Clinton attended a Methodist church during his presidency. Who payed for all the expenses?

Taxpayers.



--The Obama family picked Shiloh Baptist Church in northwest Washington, DC as their place of worship this Easter. --



But let's not let fact get in the way of emotions.
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Originally posted by SaturnFX
I wonder if you would be equally as apathetic about this if his religion was Islam and he was calling on the people of Texas to attend a call to prayer with him and used Islamic doctrine.

Yep! Remove Jesus - - insert _______________________.

And the whole dynamic changes.

I never mind anyone saying - - "Let's have a few minutes of reflection or silence or peaceful thought" - - - but the minute he mentions Jesus - - it becomes specific to one belief.

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
Clinton attended a Methodist church during his presidency. Who payed for all the expenses?

What expenses?

What extra expenses a president would not normally have - - if he stopped at a Burger King.

Did Clinton come out on the steps - - address the crowd - - and offer to lead them in prayer?

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
Reply to post by ReluctantBlossom

 

Seems the founding fathers disagree with you. Politics and religion go hand I'm hand. You should really do some thorough research, and not just of Jefferson's questionings of mainstream Christianity.

Here's your own thread Lemon Fresh. Perhaps you should read it: The United States was not founded in Christianity? I beg to differ., www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by Annee


Most historians recognize seven people as being the most instrumental in the founding of America.

John Adams
Benjamin Franklin
Alexander Hamilton
John Jay
Thomas Jefferson
James Madison
George Washington

Only John Jay was a orthodox Christian. The rest were Deists. Some were actually agnostic.

Originally posted by WolfofWar
reply to post by Annee

 

Most historians recognize seven people as being the most instrumental in the founding of America.

John Adams
Benjamin Franklin
Alexander Hamilton
John Jay
Thomas Jefferson
James Madison
George Washington

Only John Jay was a orthodox Christian. The rest were Deists. Some were actually agnostic.

Yes - I know.

That whole discussion is in the ATS thread Lemon Fresh started - to prove America was founded on Christian belief. But - I don't think it turned out the way Lemon Fresh intended.

reply to post by Annee



Perhaps you should join that other poster in researching the founding fathers, and move on past Jefferson's criticisms of Christianity as he knew it.



I will even be a darling and assist you

reply to post by Lemon.Fresh


I'd like to see that thread, there is a lot of evidence, especially in Adam's letters to Jefferson, for example, that showed him as a man who was against organized Christianity (especially the Roman Catholics.)

But that is not for this thread. this is about Gov. Perry, tax money and organized prayer events. Let's keep in on track.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by WolfofWar
reply to post by Annee

 

Most historians recognize seven people as being the most instrumental in the founding of America.

John Adams
Benjamin Franklin
Alexander Hamilton
John Jay
Thomas Jefferson
James Madison
George Washington

Only John Jay was a orthodox Christian. The rest were Deists. Some were actually agnostic.

Yes - I know.

That whole discussion is in the ATS thread Lemon Fresh started - to prove America was founded on Christian belief. But - I don't think it turned out the way Lemon Fresh intended.

Oh really?



All points were made, and all you could come up with (same as here) is they were Deists and random Jefferson quotes. Everything else was thrown out the window with you.

My favorite is when you said that no facts will ever change your mind.

That was an epic moment for you, and that pretty much ended my discussion with you.

But you can go on patting yourself on the back and linking my thread.

It is you who looks the fool. Not I.

Enjoy.