Atheist group tries to sue Gov. Perry for prayer rally

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by Ferris.Bueller.II
"Separation of Church and State" is not in the Constitution

Sigh.
That's your argument?
Really?

Right out of the Texas GOP playbook.

Next, I suppose you'll tell us that separation of church and state is a "myth"

In that case, please show where "Seperation of Church and State" is mandated by law.

Originally posted by WolfofWar
reply to post by traditionaldrummer

 

But you would be prohibiting him from participating in a legal event that he chooses to express himself in. That is a violation of his first amendment rights.

Is it legal?

And can we consider his organizing the event simply an issue of his participation and expression? Or, is he using his political influence to arrange a religious event exclusive only to christians? In response to questions, Perry has admitted the purpose is for attendees to "feel the love, grace, and warmth of Jesus Christ in that assembly hall, in that arena. And that’s what we want to convey, that there’s acceptance and that there’s love and that there’s hope if people will seek out the living Christ." Perry has taken this far beyond simple matters of his private participation and expression.

Originally posted by amaster
In that case, please show where "Seperation of Church and State" is mandated by law.

I'm sorry, but I do not have the time to teach you U.S. civics 101. Get a high school textbook or use Google to clear up this mystery for you.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by Ferris.Bueller.II
"Separation of Church and State" is not in the Constitution

Sigh.
That's your argument?
Really?

Right out of the Texas GOP playbook.

Next, I suppose you'll tell us that separation of church and state is a "myth"

No.

Separation of church and state in the United States

The modern concept of a wholly secular government is sometimes credited to the writings of English philosopher John Locke, but the phrase "separation of church and state" in this context is generally traced to an 1 January 1802 letter by Thomas Jefferson, addressed to the Danbury, Connecticut, Baptist Association, and published in a Massachusetts newspaper. Echoing the language of the founder of the first Baptist church in America, Roger Williams—who had written in 1644 of "[A] hedge or wall of separation between the garden of the church and the wilderness of the world"— Jefferson wrote, "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State".

This means the U.S. Congress will not legislate or prohibit the free practice of religion in the U.S (separation). Last I knew Governor Perry was not a member of the U.S. Congress, but the Governor of the State of Texas. Have the Atheists checked to see if the Constitution of the State of Texas has a "Separation of Church & State" clause in it? If so, then they might have a chance at trampling on Gov. Perry's rights like they are attempting to.

Originally posted by WolfofWar
He, as a human being, is organizing and promoting it. Unless you can definitively prove he reallocated federal resources to his support of this "prayer rally," then the action has not violated the establishment clause. Its really as simple as that.

If you can prove he reallocated funds or manpower from his office for it, then I'm with you. Otherwise its just straw grasping at its pinnacle.

Sure, and he as a governor is organizing it. We need not tie him to public funds for this to be a violation. He's using his political office to promote an exclusive religious event. Also, we cannot cite his 1st Amendment right as a civilian as the cover to use his government position to promote his religion.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by amaster
In that case, please show where "Seperation of Church and State" is mandated by law.

I'm sorry, but I do not have the time to teach you U.S. civics 101. Get a high school textbook or use Google to clear up this mystery for you.

In other words, you can't, because it doesn't exist. As long as the Gov is not using any public tax payer funds or government property for this prayer rally, he is perfectly within his rights to attend and promote said event. Any attempt to prevent him from doing so would be an infringement of his First Amendment Rights.

Originally posted by SaturnFX
If he is attending the rally as a citizen, no issues
If he is attending the rally as a governor, no problems

If he is promoting it as governor, then there is a problem...he can go to as many rallys, retreats, cermonies, etc as he wants to, it only crosses the line when he uses his office to promote it.

Actually it only crosses the line if he tries to make it a law or force/coerce citizens or officials to attend. Otherwise he is not infringing on anything and not breaking any laws. This atheist group needs to know their rights and how they're not being infringed upon.

/TOA

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


He is more than welcome to using his political clout to gain people to the event. That is not illegal. The only thing that is illegal about religious involvement is if he uses government resources for the event or makes a law establishing a religion. Barring that, there is nothing illegal about the event.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ...

Let's make a checklist:

Is there a law involved? No.
Is he prohibiting the free exercise thereof? No.

Lets go further and take a look at the Supreme Courts Opinion on it through the "Lemon test" :

The government's action must have a secular legislative purpose;

There is no legislation involved.

The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;

It's doing neither, since it is an individual, as an individual, holding an event, and not advancing the religion in some practice (i.e. prayer in school, ten commandments tablets in front of courthouses)

The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion.

This would be the only one that may even be remotely arguable. You'd have to stretch pretty hard though, because one person, outside of federal processes, hardly can be considered "excessive" but any stretch of imagination.

Originally posted by Ferris.Bueller.II
If so, then they might have a chance at trampling on Gov. Perry's rights like they are attempting to.

Really?
What right is there to use a position of political power to promote one religion over another?

Originally posted by The Old American

Originally posted by SaturnFX
If he is attending the rally as a citizen, no issues
If he is attending the rally as a governor, no problems

If he is promoting it as governor, then there is a problem...he can go to as many rallys, retreats, cermonies, etc as he wants to, it only crosses the line when he uses his office to promote it.

Actually it only crosses the line if he tries to make it a law or force/coerce citizens or officials to attend. Otherwise he is not infringing on anything and not breaking any laws. This atheist group needs to know their rights and they're not being infringed upon.

/TOA

Maybe they are trying to start the Atheist Inquisition.

"Nobody expects the Atheist Inquisition!"

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by Ferris.Bueller.II
If so, then they might have a chance at trampling on Gov. Perry's rights like they are attempting to.

Really?
What right is there to use a position of political power to promote one religion over another?

I don't know. What does it say in the Texas Constitution?

Originally posted by WolfofWar
That is not illegal.

There's an extensive list of organizations that disagree with you and feel they have a strong enough case to take to court. We can hash it out here but ultimately the courts must settle this.

You bring up some excellent points. Perry's actions are not clearly legal nor clearly illegal and I believe he's landed in a gray area.

To me, whether this is legal is not as relevant as whether this is appropriate. This is treading dangerously close to violating the important principle of separation of church and state.

Reply to post by The Old American

This. I swear, the inability to comprehend plain English is damn amazing.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


I'd be happy to see it go to court. Amendments need to be further defined because of arguments like these.

But be careful with trying to justify the legitimacy of a side by the amount of organizations backing it. As (presumably) an atheist and (by your own declarative statements) a skeptic you should know better then to assume that just because there are a lot of people that say so, doesn't mean its true.

Reply to post by traditionaldrummer

No grey area involved.

Word for word from the Constitution, it is a no brained.

As for appropriate, the second clause has that covered.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Here's all the clauses in the State of Texas Constitution concerning religion, which would apply to Governor Perry.

State Constitutions Texas : Religion

...the prayer rally is just another con-job to get votes but thats legal in the good ol usofa...

...since rp has already proven he's dirty (gardasil scandal), it wouldnt surprise me if he had used government money to promote this rally...

Originally posted by Ferris.Bueller.II

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by Ferris.Bueller.II
If so, then they might have a chance at trampling on Gov. Perry's rights like they are attempting to.

Really?
What right is there to use a position of political power to promote one religion over another?

I don't know. What does it say in the Texas Constitution?

Well, it says this: "Sec. 1. FREEDOM AND SOVEREIGNTY OF STATE. Texas is a free and independent State, subject only to the Constitution of the United States"

They must honor the 1st Amendment.

Their Section 6 addresses matters of religion, though Perry may not be in violation of it's wording.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by WolfofWar
That is not illegal.

There's an extensive list of organizations that disagree with you and feel they have a strong enough case to take to court. We can hash it out here but ultimately the courts must settle this.

You bring up some excellent points. Perry's actions are not clearly legal nor clearly illegal and I believe he's landed in a gray area.

To me, whether this is legal is not as relevant as whether this is appropriate. This is treading dangerously close to violating the important principle of separation of church and state.

Is it a gray area? Probably. Not legally, but politically. Not every Texan is a god-fearing bible thumper. But his "treading dangerously close" is really not close to anything. The separation of church and state was just an opinion by Jefferson, not law. So legally we can only go by what the law states and how the SCOTUS has ruled as legal precedent.

Truly, I think either side only has as much chance as the activist judges that try this case let them have. Law was thrown out long ago. Opinion is now the law.

/TOA

Originally posted by WolfofWar

I'd be happy to see it go to court. Amendments need to be further defined because of arguments like these.

But be careful with trying to justify the legitimacy of a side by the amount of organizations backing it. As (presumably) an atheist and (by your own declarative statements) a skeptic you should know better then to assume that just because there are a lot of people that say so, doesn't mean its true.

Indeed. I'm not employing argumentum ad populum to prove my contention correct, only to illustrate that there are people who do find a legal issue where you do not.

Thanks. I appreciate the excellent points you've brought to the discussion.