Faith without works and proof is false faith.

reply to post by Akragon


I understand that you have to read the Bible for yourself to comprehend what its all about; but I also see that these Biblical scholars have more knowledge of the Word than I do because it is there line of work to study it. Thus, I reach the conclusions that I come to through not only my own knowledge of the Word of God but also through the people who have dedicated much of their time to learning what the Bible says. I respect your opinion, but that's not my way of doing things, that's all.

reply to post by disasternaut

I look at the materials before me and come to conclusions based on what the content says to me by my logic as does the rest of us.

This statement is clearly false simply because of the first sentence of your reply.

Find a single place where jesus said he was God...

Logically, if he didn't say that he was God... he wasn't

Originally posted by disasternaut
reply to post by Akragon

 

I understand that you have to read the Bible for yourself to comprehend what its all about; but I also see that these Biblical scholars have more knowledge of the Word than I do because it is there line of work to study it. Thus, I reach the conclusions that I come to through not only my own knowledge of the Word of God but also through the people who have dedicated much of their time to learning what the Bible says. I respect your opinion, but that's not my way of doing things, that's all.

I appreciate that, though you should watch what those scholars tell you. Why do you think theres so many sects of christianity? Because those so called scholars can't ever come to a concensus of what is important.

You don't need to be a scholar to understand the bible man, you just need to read what is important... Everything else falls into place after that...

reply to post by Akragon


Phillip said " Lord, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us" Jesus answered: " Don't you know me Phillip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the father.

John:14, 8-9

I wouldn't claim something about God if I didn't know that the Scripture supports my claim.

reply to post by Akragon


Yeah man, I'm aware that you have to beware of some Biblical scholars; I only follow the ones who take the Bible at its word as a whole instead focusing on a certain part and disregarding the other parts of Scripture just to justify "their sect". I know where you're coming from though.

Originally posted by disasternaut
reply to post by wearewatchingyouman

 

This goes back to Paul warning us not to blinded by philosophers and the like; if we start adding principles from mystic/Gnostic religions etc. we start to blaspheme and contort the message of the Lord. It doesn't matter if these other texts make us feel "comfortable" or "enlightened" or what have you if twist God's message. In addition, since it is impossible for me to go back to those times I rely on the scholars who study the Bible in depth to reach my conclusions because it's their job to know these things. If you want to understand science, learn from a scientist; If you want to understand the Bible learn from Biblical scholars.

Perhaps I wasn't clear... I never mentioned anything to you about mystics or gnostics... I simply stated that if you are going to accept an interpretation one may want to start with the interpretation of the religion who created the book... instead of the interpretation of spinoffs, or as you put it contorters of the book, of said religions... i.e Jewish Scholars and Orthodox Scholars

Originally posted by disasternaut
reply to post by Akragon

 

Phillip said " Lord, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us" Jesus answered: " Don't you know me Phillip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the father.

John:14, 8-9

I wouldn't claim something about God if I didn't know that the Scripture supports my claim.

Read the very next passage my friend... and even what comes after it. This is what i mean when i say "watch what others tell you".....

10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

He speaks of two entities not one.

Why would he "go onto my father" if he was the father...

How can "the father be glorified in the son" if he was the father...

Here we get into the "trinity" and other such arguements, still there is only one God according to the bible.

He never once claims "I AM God" And he even refutes a group of Jews wanting to kill him for saying "he is God"..... He questions them saying "you want to kill me because i said i was the son of God?"

Perhaps Jesus was sent from God, but he was not God... only a part of God.

Just like the rest of us...

reply to post by Akragon


God the son, God the father, and God the Holy spirit. All of these entities make up the Godhead. I know that God the father and God the son are different; but they are also the same, they make up God. I am a firm believer in the Trinity based on my understanding of what the Bible says, I have spent much time learning the Word; but I digress. You are a proponent of a different school of Biblical thought than I am, and guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here.

Originally posted by disasternaut
reply to post by Akragon

 

God the son, God the father, and God the Holy spirit. All of these entities make up the Godhead. I know that God the father and God the son are different; but they are also the same, they make up God. I am a firm believer in the Trinity based on my understanding of what the Bible says, I have spent much time learning the Word; but I digress. You are a proponent of a different school of Biblical thought than I am, and guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here.

Of course, im not trying to convert you or change your beliefs. Im just saying its not something that is in the bible. The man never once said he is God... Again the trinity is a completely different discussion.

Regardless it doesn't matter what you believe God is, the only thing that matters is how you use that knowledge of whatever you believe.

Apparently theres a "flying spagetti monster" that people believe quite strongly in on these forums as well...

Believe what you will

reply to post by disasternaut

Jesus was not a mere mystic; he was God. I was referring to the religions/belief systems that infringed on what the bible taught based on human speculation versus divine inspiration.

Out of these two sentences I quote from your post, how do you reconcile them? Do you not understand that the first sentence is a product of human speculation, seeing how there is no Bible verse that says that Jesus is God? (question mark applies to the "do you" at the beginning of the sentence)

Edit to add: I made this post after reading the one it refers to, on the previous page.
Now I see it is redundant since it has already been pointed out, on this page.

reply to post by Akragon


When Jesus says that" if you've seen the father you have seen me" I take that not only as reference to him being in the same character as God but also implying that he was God. I know that Jesus never said it directly; but the implications leave me to believe it as so. Here are some scriptures to think about:

Revelation 22:12-13, 16 “Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.... [16] “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

John 1:1, 14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.... [14] The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

reply to post by jmdewey60


I posted some scriptures to the other gentleman, please check those out right quick to understand where I'm coming from.

reply to post by disasternaut
I'm not saying that Jesus is not somehow god, what I am trying to point out is that is something I concluded myself. What you are accepting as a straight forward fact is maybe based on someone else's conclusion. My main point is there are a lot of concepts and doctrines which are teachings of men who believe they know better and should hand these things down to the masses for consumption and accepted.
People have an ability to understand the highest concepts in religion and should work these things out independently. That does not mean don't read but personally I am very selective in what I read and don't want to get caught up in someones agenda to promote one thing or another and not always in a totally honest sort of way.

reply to post by wearewatchingyouman


Ah, I see what you're saying now, I make sure to study Biblical scholars who have proper understanding of early Judaism and the like. When you mentioned hermaneutics [sorry about the spelling] I thought you were saying that one may need to consider the principles taught in those texts to interpret the Bible properly. My mistake if this wasn't your intent.

reply to post by jmdewey60


The only agenda I support is that of God and his word. I attempt to proclaim Jesus's holiness because I believe in my heart that is whats right; despite what others may say.

Originally posted by disasternaut
reply to post by Akragon

 

When Jesus says that" if you've seen the father you have seen me" I take that not only as reference to him being in the same character as God but also implying that he was God. I know that Jesus never said it directly; but the implications leave me to believe it as so. Here are some scriptures to think about:

Revelation 22:12-13, 16 “Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.... [16] “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

John 1:1, 14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.... [14] The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Assume whatever you like my friend...

reply to post by Akragon


Yes, you too. And thanks for your civility and an intellectually stimulating conversation.

reply to post by disasternaut


Can you explain the trinity from what you understand of it?

I didn't want to let this conversation die...lol

reply to post by Akragon


Ok. The reason I believe in the Trinity is that the Bible implies [based on my perception] that the Son, the Father, and Holy spirit are one entity. Lets start with this:
"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit". Matt. 28:19
I believe this referencing to the name God as these three beings ; otherwise it would have just said "baptize them in the name of God" without alluding to these other entities.

He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, "Do you love me?" and he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." Jesus said to him, "Feed my sheep. :John 21:17

Here it is mentioned that Jesus knows everything; [and this wasn't countered by Jesus] how could Jesus know everything if he, in fact, wasn't Almighty God?

You see, these and other scriptures support the idea of the Trinity. Jesus refers to himself in Revelation as "The Alpha and the Omega". so does God. Jesus is God. A complex idea to grasp? yes. Supported by the word of God? Absolutely.

reply to post by disasternaut


I wasn't saying that you have to apply the study of the principles(which vary according to style) to have a good understanding... I was just saying that you may find that doing so would help you if you ever decide you want to develop a personal interpretation...

My main point is that Jewish and Orthodox scholars usually have a different interpretation than "Christian" scholars who claim to have a better understanding of their book than they do... if you're concerned about having an "authentic" interpretation based on what the authors intentions were... these guys would probably know best...