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Faith without works and proof is false faith.

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posted on Jul, 13 2011 @ 11:14 AM
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Faith without works and proof is false faith.

Scriptures, on the issue of works, contradict each other.

Some scriptures and Christian sects push the notion that faith alone in God is all that is required to earn heaven.
Some scriptures indicate that without works, living the theology and applying it to reality, that whatever faith we claim to have is useless and that those souls are lost.

The notion of being part of a community where individuals looked out for each other and shared whatever it had was the key and the only reason Christianity became the religion that it is today. I mean this in the sense or size only. In reality, Christianity no longer bases it’s theology and being saved on works.

Perhaps this is why the Church is so fragmented today and losing the battle for the hearts and minds of the population.

People usually do what they see as profitable in one way or another for themselves. Today, looking at Christianity, from inside or outside, the population does not see a profit in remaining in or joining Christianity due to this notion that faith is all that is required.

Without works, will Christianity die?
Do you have to live your faith or is faith without works and good deeds good enough?

What was it that James told Peter.
Demons have faith in God and it is likely stronger than man’s faith because they know for certain of God’s reality yet it does them no good. Faith, belief that is not based on proof, is thus useless.

Regards
DL



posted on Jul, 13 2011 @ 11:23 AM
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The whole point of the word faith, means to believe without proof...

So, faith with proof, wouldn't be faith anymore.
It would be fact.



posted on Jul, 13 2011 @ 03:30 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 


Faith without works is dead. If I said I loved my wife, and then went home and beat her every night, you'd should be skeptical of my claim. If I claim faith in God, but lets say for sake of argument... I protest at abortion clinics and show hatred towards the women who go there, you should also be skeptical of my faith.

Jesus said you'd know his disciples by their fruit(Works). You don't need to work to be saved, you want to work when you are.



posted on Jul, 13 2011 @ 04:04 PM
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reply to post by Buddha1098
 
Have you talked to the women who stand outside abortion clinics?
If you had, I think you would have a different opinion of them.
They do what they do out of love, not hatred.
That makes no sense.



posted on Jul, 13 2011 @ 04:14 PM
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Originally posted by User8911
The whole point of the word faith, means to believe without proof...

So, faith with proof, wouldn't be faith anymore.
It would be fact.


I agree.
What of works?

Regards
DL



posted on Jul, 13 2011 @ 04:15 PM
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Originally posted by Buddha1098
reply to post by Greatest I am
 


Faith without works is dead. If I said I loved my wife, and then went home and beat her every night, you'd should be skeptical of my claim. If I claim faith in God, but lets say for sake of argument... I protest at abortion clinics and show hatred towards the women who go there, you should also be skeptical of my faith.

Jesus said you'd know his disciples by their fruit(Works). You don't need to work to be saved, you want to work when you are.


Well put.

Regards
DL



posted on Jul, 13 2011 @ 04:17 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Buddha1098
 
Have you talked to the women who stand outside abortion clinics?
If you had, I think you would have a different opinion of them.
They do what they do out of love, not hatred.
That makes no sense.



Did the Christians who murdered the doctors at these clinics do so out of love or did they have hate in their hearts as they killed?

Regards
DL



posted on Jul, 13 2011 @ 05:02 PM
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Originally posted by Greatest I am
Faith without works and proof is false faith.

Scriptures, on the issue of works, contradict each other.


Personally I do not see a contradiction, I believe the Bible is clear that we are saved by grace through faith ("not of works, lest no man should boast") and that works are not a part of salvation.


Originally posted by Greatest I am
Some scriptures indicate that without works, living the theology and applying it to reality, that whatever faith we claim to have is useless and that those souls are lost.


If you would offer the passages that you think offer this notion, then I'd be happy to rebut them. I know there are some sects that push this, but I believe it is due to mistranslations of Scripture. Certainly there are passages that tell us we should strive to do good works, but this is not tied to salvation. Like much of the Bible it is offered to us so that we may live better lives while we're here.

Here are some passages that clearly state that salvation is through faith and not works:


Romans 9:32
Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 3:5
He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,



Originally posted by Greatest I am
Without works, will Christianity die?


I'd say it's a moot point, because even though not all Christians do works, enough do that Christianity will never die. At least, not until the Church is removed. Even then it won't die, but it will be relocated



Originally posted by Greatest I am
What was it that James told Peter.
Demons have faith in God and it is likely stronger than man’s faith because they know for certain of God’s reality yet it does them no good. Faith, belief that is not based on proof, is thus useless.



What? No, I don't think there's such a passage. Demons have knowledge of God, but not faith in Him. They fear Him, but their allegiance is to Satan. Perhaps you're thinking of this passage:


James 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.



posted on Jul, 13 2011 @ 05:07 PM
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Originally posted by Greatest I am
Did the Christians who murdered the doctors at these clinics do so out of love or did they have hate in their hearts as they killed?


A true follower of Christ would never do such a thing. There are many people who call themselves Christians that do not hold Christ in their heart. They are workers of inequity.


Matthew 7:21-23
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



posted on Jul, 13 2011 @ 06:38 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 

Did the Christians who murdered the doctors at these clinics do so out of love or did they have hate in their hearts as they killed?
Not the same people.
The men shooting doctors are also not women.



posted on Jul, 14 2011 @ 01:53 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


No I talked to my friend who had an abortion and was told she was a whore and going to hell. Love for the unborn and hatred for the living is not love.

You'll notice I didn't say protest outside abortion clinics, I said protest and show hatred. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but Calling someone a whore is not love.
edit on 14-7-2011 by Buddha1098 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 14 2011 @ 02:03 PM
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reply to post by Buddha1098
 
Ok, you are right. I just looked and I did misread your post.
I kind of ran the two sentences together in my mind, and did not re-check your post after making my post.



posted on Jul, 14 2011 @ 02:04 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Namaste my friend



posted on Jul, 14 2011 @ 02:34 PM
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Originally posted by User8911
The whole point of the word faith, means to believe without proof...

So, faith with proof, wouldn't be faith anymore.
It would be fact.

It would be knowledge and there's nothing wrong with that, although God's mystery cannot be fathomed, and so at best, it's a rational ascension to the point of faith which is taken like a quantum jump into the unknown unknown.



posted on Jul, 15 2011 @ 10:44 AM
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Originally posted by SavedOne

Originally posted by Greatest I am
Did the Christians who murdered the doctors at these clinics do so out of love or did they have hate in their hearts as they killed?


A true follower of Christ would never do such a thing. There are many people who call themselves Christians that do not hold Christ in their heart. They are workers of inequity.


Matthew 7:21-23
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



How do you tell a true follower from a bogus one if not from his works?

Jesus said you'd know his disciples by their fruit (Works).

..14.. How does it help, my brothers, when someone who has never done a single good act claims to have faith? Will that faith bring salvation?..


....15.. If one of the brothers or one of the sisters is in need of clothes and has not enough food to live on,..


....16.. and one of you says to them, 'I wish you well; keep yourself warm and eat plenty,' without giving them these bare necessities of life, then what good is that?..


....17.. In the same way faith, if good deeds do not go with it, is quite dead...


....18.. But someone may say: So you have faith and I have good deeds? Show me this faith of yours without deeds, then! It is by my deeds that I will show you my faith...


....19.. You believe in the one God -- that is creditable enough, but even the demons have the same belief, and they tremble with fear...


....20.. Fool! Would you not like to know that faith without deeds is useless?..


....21.. Was not Abraham our father justified by his deed, because he offered his son Isaac on the altar?..


....22.. So you can see that his faith was working together with his deeds; his faith became perfect by what he did...


....23.. In this way the scripture was fulfilled: Abraham put his faith in God, and this was considered as making him upright; and he received the name 'friend of God'...


....24.. You see now that it is by deeds, and not only by believing, that someone is justified...

You should study James a bit more if you think there is no contradiction between James and Peter.

bible.org...

BTW, are you aware that scholars disagree on the way Paul and James use the word works.
Many think that works is the older Jewish law.

Peter was saying that the gentiles did not have to follow the Jewish traditions.
James did not agree.

Regards
DL



posted on Jul, 15 2011 @ 11:41 AM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 

BTW, are you aware that scholars disagree on the way Paul and James use the word works.
Many think that works is the older Jewish law.
Peter was saying that the gentiles did not have to follow the Jewish traditions.
James did not agree.
What do you think?
Could you elaborate on this a bit?
Fill us in on what the two disciples are really getting at.
Or did you just read that on an atheist blog.
Not that I am saying there is anything wrong with that.
Nor am I implying you are being deceptive or dishonest.
Just want your personal views.



posted on Jul, 15 2011 @ 02:48 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Greatest I am
 

BTW, are you aware that scholars disagree on the way Paul and James use the word works.
Many think that works is the older Jewish law.
Peter was saying that the gentiles did not have to follow the Jewish traditions.
James did not agree.
What do you think?
Could you elaborate on this a bit?
Fill us in on what the two disciples are really getting at.
Or did you just read that on an atheist blog.
Not that I am saying there is anything wrong with that.
Nor am I implying you are being deceptive or dishonest.
Just want your personal views.





This book is my source for the Jewish take on works.

www.youtube.com...

Paul is better known than James but James may have won the debate because most Christians are circumcised.
A Jewish identification ritual at one point in time.

My take on the history is that Christianity usurped the Jewish god but ignored the Jewish take on the O T.
I E. Christians think of Eden as our fall while Jews think of it as our elevation.
We gained a moral sense.

Part of the problem in knowing who said what is part of what that book tries to show, as much of the bible is known to be forgeries and written by other than who is being given the credit for writing it. that is why scriptures should not be read literally.

The same holds true for the books of Moses as we now know that he did not write them. Three different writers were involved and we cannot know if one of them was Moses or not.

Regards
DL



posted on Jul, 15 2011 @ 03:56 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 
The Nazi's could tell the difference between the ceremonial circumcision and ones done out of medcal/hygene concerns, so I don't accept your premise as being valid to show an adoption of Jewish practices by Christians.
Could you give a source for the Jewish belief that disobeying the Lord was good.


edit on 15-7-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 15 2011 @ 04:03 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 


While works are fairly important in Christianity, they are not the centerpiece on which it is based. True Christians know there is but one way to be saved from their transgressions.

Eph. 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. 9 Not by works, lest any man should boast."



posted on Jul, 15 2011 @ 06:23 PM
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reply to post by disasternaut
 

True Christians know there is but one. . .
As opposed to . . fake Christians?
How do you distinguish between the real ones and the fake ones?




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