Jesus literalist. What would change your mind?

reply to post by megabytz
Jesus did things that were practical and you could see why he did things.
He did things that helped people.
He did not do things just to be famous or to have people praise him.
He did things to point to a higher concept of humanity.
That we can gain lessons from them does not mean they were just made-up stories to teach lessons.
A god is not something we as mortals have the ability to judge very well.
I would go so far as to say Jesus was some sort of god in a way we can not easily understand but was at the same time as much a normal human as us.
He utilized a pathway that connected him to God which he never allowed to be weakened or put aside for the sake of personal pursuits. So he had a fully realized spirituality that no other before him had gained and there is a reason behind that which is that God had a specific plan for him.

verdana

Originally posted by megabytz
reply to post by JesusisTruthh

 

What absurdity?

Really? See my above post. This is not reality and those were just quick examples from the top of my head. There are plenty more.


Yea you get those from copy and paste links from bias websites. I already seen an OP like this 100s of times.

The Church took nothing away from pagan beliefs, as they condemned them throughout history. Since the NT is a continuation of the Oldtestament, it began before every pagan religion on the face of the earth.

Seriously? You think Judaism is the worlds first religion. I'm sorry but that is just false. Pagan religions where around 30,000 years ago. People worshipped the earth in the paleolithic age. Hinduism dates as far back as 1,500 B.C.E.


Yea, because the story of Adam and Eve is from the beginning of time. I don't believe in the dating system they teach in school. And I don't believe the Earth is that old either. I believe the layers of rocks we have were shaken up by the flood. If those pagan religions were true they would of flourished throughout the World and succeeded like the abrahamic faith. They fizzled out because they were false. were false.[/font]

Satan knew how God would come into the World and he knew what we would believ, so he created similiar pagan beliefs in the minds of idol souls to indicate this.

huh? Satan created all the pagan gods and made them similar to Jesus in order to deceive mankind. Well isn't that convenient. Now you don't have to face reality or deal with the dissonance in your mind. This is the type of inane comment that made me leave the church. It also shows you will never listen to reason anyway. Is reason from satan as well? See this thread Cognitive Dissonance

Iv'e read that thread and it's nonsense. I replied to it on page two. I'm saying Satan knew God and how he would come to this Earth. When God said : Let (us) make man in our image, he was talking to Christ at the creation of Earth. Satan knew how he would come to Earth. So what he does, is create similar pagan beliefs similar to the ones he knew Christ would fullfill. The proof is in the fruitsthough. Those beliefs fizzled out.

We use the calendar has our system for living starting with AD/BC. If the Gospel is false, then they did a damn good job of making this Church spread throughout the World and create countless saints, some of which bleed in their hands and worked countless miracles.

How does this prove the bible as truth? The calender is not proof of Jesus. And of course it uses AD/BC it was introduced by a pope. Christianity spread just like any other religion. Can you show me one piece of objective evidence of any miracle or of stigmata being a miracle from god.


I was making a mere point that, all of the fruits of Gods Church and this supposed lie created by a group of men couldn't just happen by chance. I believe it's because of Gods divine will. It was introduced by a pope but we hold it and go by it. a freemasonic government. Padre Pio. Documented Preist. Lived from about 1887-1968.... documented to raise a dead girl in confession. On video tape healed a girl named gemma degorgio who had no pupils, still has non to the day she died. She sees without pupils. Had the stigmata for 50 strait years. tested by doctors said he should of died within weeks of blood loss. he was the last stigmatist. i could go into 100s more, but what's the point? How can I prove it's from God? it's not in the nature, that should be enough. whoever wants to believe will believe it, whoever wants God to be false will never believe it.

Obviously I don't believe we got to this point by chance and because a couple of dudes got together and said: let's make a false story about guy who would be God. Well create a Church and eventually die for him.

No one said a couple "dudes" got together and made up a story. It is a little more complicated than that. And who says that any supposed original follower of Christ died for their belief? People died for their religion long before christianity and they still do today.

Why not provide a link that doesn't use the bible as proof of the bible. I already have a headache without trying to follow your circular logic.


But they don't die for something they know is a lie, that they made up. They died by authorities in those times for Christ, and Christ told them they would before he left them. Those links were a mere suggestion that the gospels were probably created before 70 ad.. about 40 years after Christ death.

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www.age-of-the-sage.org...

I'll give you one thing. Muslim and Buddhism faiths are rather large. One stems from the Abrahamic faith even though it's false.

The other stems mostly from China/India, communist pagan countries. Although in prophecy it is said many and I mean many of them will convert near the end times or after the Chastisement when 1 3rd of the Earth will be destroyed.

reply to post by Greatest I am


Absolutely nothing.

Give me Jesus or give me death.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


So if Jesus had never existed....

You'd rather die?

reply to post by ExistentialNightmare


He does exist, irrelevant question.

I could just as easily say if Jesus never existed nothing else, including me, would either. (John chapter 1)

reply to post by NOTurTypical

He does exist, irrelevant question.

Then your "Jesus or death" statement is irrellevant too; just as irrelevant as my question. It's made even more irrelevant because we can't prove he did exist, or that any of us are direct decendants. Also we don't know the virgin birth is true; a jewish minx might have told a lie.

You just trust the doctrine, and even if you don't, you think it's the best story ever told, and that the "spirit" of Jesus is the only true way, even though the Spirit of Jesus is just what's written in the bible; even though people might attribute to something "unseen".

Originally posted by ExistentialNightmare
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Then your "Jesus or death" statement is irrellevant too; just as irrelevant as my question. It's made even more irrelevant because we can't prove he did exist, or that any of us are direct decendants. Also we don't know the virgin birth is true; a jewish minx might have told a lie.

No it's not, I'm freely allowed to worship Him, to sacrifice my wants and desires for His kingdom, to preach the gospel, to read His Word. Give me that or kill me. If I can't have what I have I don't want to live. There is more contemporary evidence for Jesus than there was for Alexander the Great and no one denies that Alexander was a historical person. Alexander hasn't transformed the world. There aren't over 1 billion people claiming to love and follow Alexander.

None of us are descendents of Jesus, who said we are?

You just trust the doctrine, and even if you don't, you think it's the best story ever told, and that the "spirit" of Jesus is the only true way, even though the Spirit of Jesus is just what's written in the bible; even though people might attribute to something "unseen".

So? Everyone worships someone or something, I choose that to be Jesus Christ. Worship means ascribing worth to, someone or something you spend your time, talents and treasure (money) on. It can be Jesus, it can be Eminem, it can be the Pittsburgh Steelers.

What does it matter to you who I worship?

reply to post by NOTurTypical

No it's not, I'm freely allowed to worship Him, to sacrifice my wants and desires for His kingdom, to preach the gospel, to read His Word. Give me that or kill me. If I can't have what I have I don't want to live. There is more contemporary evidence for Jesus than there was for Alexander the Great and no one denies that Alexander was a historical person. Alexander hasn't transformed the world. There aren't over 1 billion people claiming to love and follow Alexander.

No one denies Socrate's existence either; but he wasn't alledged to have performed "miracles"; and his words don't come with any supernatural strings. We don't to pray to him, or preach his words as "holy", and we don't need to immerse ourself in the "dogma of Socrates" (likewise with Alexander). We're certainly not worried for our eternal souls if we criticise their words.

So? Everyone worships someone or something, I choose that to be Jesus Christ. Worship means ascribing worth to, someone or something you spend your time, talents and treasure (money) on. It can be Jesus, it can be Eminem, it can be the Pittsburgh Steelers.

Any piety other than that to Jesus or God would surely disobey commandments 1 and 2?

I like "Dawkins" and i enjoy his work but i don't "worship" him. People shouldn't "worship" football teams; There's a culture of football fanatism here in the UK; and it can become very silly.

What does it matter to you who I worship?

It doesn't matter to me.

reply to post by ExistentialNightmare

No one denies Socrate's existence either; but he wasn't alledged to have performed "miracles"; and his words don't come with any supernatural strings.

A very hostile source to Jesus and Christianity (Babylonian Talmud) doesn't deny He existed or that He preformed miracles. They attribute them to Him being a magician instead of the Son of God.

I wonder why His 11 followers would endure torturous deaths as martyrs for a known lie?

Peter: "Hey guys, I have an idea. Let's leave our careers and family behind to create a fake person to worship as God in direct violation of the Law of Moses, then we can be chased out of every synagogue in Jerusalem to finally be tortured and murdered. We'll not ask for money and give everything we own to this guy we make up and never devulge that it was a lie even to the point of death, myself being crucified upside down? Who's with me?"

The 10; "Hells yeah, let's do it!!!"

reply to post by NOTurTypical

They attribute them to Him being a magician instead of the Son of God.

Well if he was "the son of God" why heal only a few at sundown? Why not heal the whole world? Too easy? Is it the "works in mysterious" ways argument?

What was his message when he turned water to wine? I am powerful? What's his point?

Even if i grant his existence; why should i consider him any greater than other martyrs that have changed prejudices, and promoted love?

What about John Lennon, maybe he was Jesus re-incarnated and spreading his message via song?

I don't care who or what you worship, what you believe, i would, however, like to get to the bottom of why you put so much faith in these old doctrines, even if it's a historical account; why do you believe (or put faith) in the supernatural claims which come with the accounts; especially claims from a time where knowledge was young, and superstition was ripe.

reply to post by JesusisTruthh

The other stems mostly from China/India, communist pagan countries.

Buddhism began in 6th century India and has nothing to do with paganism. Communism did not exist at this time so what was your point?

Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Buddhism are not the only religions in the world either. The first signs of religious practiced go back arguably 300,000 years ago. The practice is a phenomenon of the human mind and has progressed into the religions we see today.

I love how you outright say it is just false. I agree with you, but from a christian point of view, why is it false?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by ExistentialNightmare

 

He does exist, irrelevant question.

I could just as easily say if Jesus never existed nothing else, including me, would either. (John chapter 1)

Please show some kind of evidence that he exists. There is no evidence that he actually existed but plenty that points to the gospels being false and contradictory.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

There is more contemporary evidence for Jesus than there was for Alexander the Great and no one denies that Alexander was a historical person.

Come on, that was just silly. There is some controversy about Alexander but there is no question whatsoever that he existed. We have archeological evidence, which we don't have for Jesus, and his conquest left dynasties in his wake. From a historical sense Jesus was a trivial figure during his time if he existed. No one can say the same about Alexander. Alexander is extremely well documented compared to Jesus and he never claimed to be born of a virgin, the son of god, etc. Jesus is horribly documented for all the wonderful things he supposedly did.

Your comparison was the typical christian apologist nonsense. Do they hand these lines out to you at church?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by ExistentialNightmare

 

No one denies Socrate's existence either; but he wasn't alledged to have performed "miracles"; and his words don't come with any supernatural strings.

A very hostile source to Jesus and Christianity (Babylonian Talmud) doesn't deny He existed or that He preformed miracles. They attribute them to Him being a magician instead of the Son of God.

I wonder why His 11 followers would endure torturous deaths as martyrs for a known lie?

Peter: "Hey guys, I have an idea. Let's leave our careers and family behind to create a fake person to worship as God in direct violation of the Law of Moses, then we can be chased out of every synagogue in Jerusalem to finally be tortured and murdered. We'll not ask for money and give everything we own to this guy we make up and never devulge that it was a lie even to the point of death, myself being crucified upside down? Who's with me?"

The 10; "Hells yeah, let's do it!!!"

Again please provide evidence that any of the disciples endured torture. Provide evidence that any of the disciples existed at all. The argument that they wouldn't of died for a lie is very weak. People die for lies all the time. Muslims die for their religion, is islam true? Buddhist have set themselves on fire in protest, is buddhism true? Native Americans died for their beliefs. People have died for religion all throughout history, that doesn't make them true. It makes religion worse for deceiving people and costing them their lives.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

A very hostile source to Jesus and Christianity (Babylonian Talmud) doesn't deny He existed or that He preformed miracles. They attribute them to Him being a magician instead of the Son of God.

Do you have a citation for that?
There were several people by the name Jesus in Jewish history vaguely around the time of the more famous Jesus of Christianity but as far as I know, investigation of these people, including ones in the Talmud, end up with the conclusion that they are no way connected with that person.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

A very hostile source to Jesus and Christianity (Babylonian Talmud) doesn't deny He existed or that He preformed miracles. They attribute them to Him being a magician instead of the Son of God.

Do you have a citation for that?
There were several people by the name Jesus in Jewish history vaguely around the time of the more famous Jesus of Christianity but as far as I know, investigation of these people, including ones in the Talmud, end up with the conclusion that they are no way connected with that person.

Stop listening to liberal "scholars" who's livelihoods depend on challenging anything historical about Jesus.

Source: Pages 123-125 of the book: '"The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict" by Josh McDowell.

Or simply Google : "Jesus in the Talmuds"

reply to post by megabytz

Again please provide evidence that any of the disciples endured torture.

The apostles direct disciples (Clement of Rome, Polycarp et al) describe their mentor's deaths. Also early church fathers discussed the deaths of the apostles, only John died of old age. Peters death is discussed first by Eusebius, in "Ecclesiastical History", St. Jerome also discussed Peter's death. John records the resurrected Christ's words to Peter that he would be martyred. (Jn.21:18-19). Also see: "Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church". James death is recorded in Acts 12:2, he was murdered.

Provide evidence that any of the disciples existed at all.

We have epistles from the apostles that meet the criteria for historical documents. And we have the testimony and writings of the church fathers, the Apostolic fathers, and the Ante-Nicean Fathers. Quite extensive historical documentation.

The argument that they wouldn't of died for a lie is very weak. People die for lies all the time. Muslims die for their religion, is islam true? Buddhist have set themselves on fire in protest, is buddhism true? Native Americans died for their beliefs. People have died for religion all throughout history, that doesn't make them true.

The folks you mentioned didn't "start" the religions in question. You're comparing apples to a Mercedes Benz. These men died deaths as martyrs for something you skeptics allege was a lie and never happened. That's absurd. Why would anyone knowingly die a martyrs death for something they invented?

It makes religion worse for deceiving people and costing them their lives.

Not worth responding to.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

"Jesus in the Talmuds"

That came up with a page that refutes your claim.
I went over this stuff years ago with my former Rabbi, where I brought to him a list of names I had found of people who may have been Jesus in the Jewish histories. He showed how each one of them was someone else.
If McDowell gives a specific instance, and you have that, how about sharing because unless he discovered something no one else has, there is no argument I know of that gives any substantial backing to this idea that it is there in the Talmud. You don't think he profits from selling that book?

reply to post by jmdewey60


Imagine that, contemporary Jews rejecting anything Jesusy.

I never saw that one coming.

On the eve of Passover they hanged Yeshu. And an announcer went out in front of him for forty days, saying: 'He is going to be stoned, because he practised sorcery and enticed and led Israel astray. Anyone who knows anything in his favor, let him come and plead in his behalf.' But not having found anything in his favor, they hanged him on the eve of Passover.

Babylonian Talmud


Take that as you wish. You can always find someone who rejects this as mentioning Jesus Christ, especially a Jewish reference.