Respect, Corruption, Law Enforcement and You

I disagree strongly with the premise and conclusions in the op. I believe it is an excess of unchecked authority coupled with more tools to compel compliance that is the reason "granny gets tazed" more often than threat of law suit many times over. Studies show that when given unchecked authority people will abuse it and this is why I believe there is a problem with excessive police use of force today.Bank tellers and money counters spend their entire shift on cameras which pick up every move from all angles. They only count money. IMO it is not unreasonable to ask the same of those who are charged with the safety and lives in a community. it is also not unreasonable to expect the type of police work that SFA describes which shows respect for the community, respect for the SPIRIT of the law opposed to adherence to the letter. This is the type of community servant the public would take a bullet for and like the heroes I remember form my youth in blue. And they were truly heroes at one time. That respect is waning on both sides and that is sad as we really are only one side.
seed

There was a reason that a good portion of my arrest warrants were served with a phone call to the offender or their mothers (honest- i would call mom!)

That reason was respect. They guys out doing the wrong thing KNEW that if I came for them that a few things would happen:

They would be treated with respect. If the offender wanted a hamburger before he got to county I'd drive thru McDonalds. If they wanted a smoke I'd let them fire one up outside the PD and again before processing.

If they had a reason to not want to go to jail that was valid I would let them surrender at a later time like one guy needed to go to work so he wouldn't get fired and not be able to pay his child support. He got a weekend pass and came in on a Tuesday.

They knew they wouldn't get bum rushed, tossed on the ground and have me standing on their kidneys unless they decided to try and fight me rather than explain why they needed an extra day or two outside and that I would ACTUALLY listen.

The process to get to that point was the culmination of a career that started when I walked into a place called the 13th Street Clubhouse. It's where the local crowd of "bad guys" hung out. I walked in, in full uniform, to a scene exactly opposite of Eddie Murphy walking into that cowboy bar. All of a sudden dice & cards got swept off tables and joints got thrown to the floor.

I simply explained that they've been rolling dice and smoking up before I was born and they'd be doing the same after I was gone. Told them I didn't much care what went on inside their bar either but I didn't want to see it on the street and they sure as hell weren't going to be dealing on my watch. As long as things were quiet and there was no ruckus at 3 AM they'd be on their way and I'd be on mine. And then I stuck to that agreement instead of going in every Fri and Sat night and rousting them.

After a while they figured out I was one of the "good guys" and I got invited to 13th Street barbeques, had beers with them, went fishing a couple times... they knew I would bust them in a heartbeat for crossing the line but they also knew if I did it would be for something utterly stupid on their part. Heck some of them knew my wife and kid by the time I left the department.

But all of that took time- years in fact- and that is where the rub is. I don't think it is institutionalized violence or attitude but rather a reflection of society as a whole. The whole instant gratification thing transfers over into every aspect of life and society including police work. The idea of patience is gone. Consider the Rochester incident... The officer could have explained to the woman taping exactly WHY he was feeling antsy (if he was to begin with but for this example I am going to say he actually was), let her know that while she knows she is not a threat that he doesn't and that he doesn't mind her recording but would she be so kind as to do it from her porch. Instead he lost patience, didn't explain why he wished for things to proceed the way be wanted and arrested her.

Even Taser usage relates to this. It's so much easier to Tase an EDP than talk him/her down. It's so much easier to Tase a verbally non-compliant subject than to talk them down. The Taser DOES have it's place on the officer's belt. It allows instant control of a subject who cannot be controlled by other means. It allows the officer to control a subject without going "hands on" which is FAR more dangerous to both parties BUT it is being used way too much. Sometimes when you have a a hammer everything starts to look like a nail. I've Tased people before and every single one needed Tasing because other options failed.

My bottom line is if we start producing officers who have the right mindset, that police work is not about the number of arrests you make but about the number of kids you set straight. That it is not about being Billy Badass 24/7 but developing the relationship with the local criminals that while you won't harass them you WILL mess up their day if they do stupid things. That it is not about your badge & firearm but it is about actually serving the greater good of the community in which you work.

It is also about treating everyone you make contact with in a respectful and courteous manner but also having that plan to kill anyone who tries to put you in a pine box. The ability to maintain that mental state also takes work and it seems too many officers nowadays default to the latter part of that statement without remembering the former.

Solutions to the issue- I honestly have none. Wish I did... All that I did was ensure rookies who got assigned to me understood that I expected them to treat every single person they met, criminal and civilian alike as if it was their mother. What that means is that until the time came to put a round in the subject's melon the absolute minimal amount of force was used- whether it was simply presence or voice commands all the way up to OC and Tasing. If you wouldn't do it to moms (assuming she was out of control) then don't do it at all.

Sorry for the long winded post- I've had around 3 beers too many tonight

reply to post by SFA437

So are you no longer on the force? If not why did you leave?

You no longer see the officer enter the diner sit down and just shooting the poo with whoever was there, I can recall quit of few of these encounters and they were always pleasant, now what I see is they enter in groups, isolate themselves from everyone else, have a good time, and in the case of my ex wife, treated her like a second class citizen as she served them their food with a smile. A few times she would come up to me in tears with how rude they were to her.

I wish I could say its getting better, but its just not, more and more, war veterans are joining the force, not getting the mental help they need to transition back into society and instead view the average american as if they are al quida. Take me for instance, there is actually a security briefings about "anarchists" being domestic terrorists...Really? Violence is not the answer, and since government at its very nature is violent, government must go.

The last thing I want to do is have to protect my daughter while a revolution rages around us, but its the only place I see it going, I would like to respect those who wear a uniform and swear to uphold the peace. but it is a give and take.

As you can see from our conversations, I have had nothing but respect because it was mutual. For all you LEO's out there, I will meet you in mutual respect if you can say the same thing to everyone else. That means thinking before speaking, stop viewing the public as the enemy, bring back the old days where you wanted to know the police and didn't mind being around them.

Originally posted by NuroSlam
reply to post by SFA437

 

So are you no longer on the force? If not why did you leave?

I was offered employment by someone I went through basic training with who wound up doing some secret squirrel type stuff. It paid a good bit more over the 14 bucks an hour I was getting as a 12 year veteran officer and was up my alley so I jumped on it. After 6 years of not being home I was thrown from a HMMWV and wrapped around a guardrail. Now I have a 3 level spinal fusion, a knee that will be 2x it's normal size for life, only half of my teeth and 60% of my hearing. Not gonna go into intestinal disorders from God knows what organisms

Originally posted by NuroSlamYou no longer see the officer enter the diner sit down and just shooting the poo with whoever was there, I can recall quit of few of these encounters and they were always pleasant, now what I see is they enter in groups, isolate themselves from everyone else, have a good time, and in the case of my ex wife, treated her like a second class citizen as she served them their food with a smile. A few times she would come up to me in tears with how rude they were to her.

Even as a former officer I find myself getting treated just like your ex and observe the exact same things happening. Didn't used to be that way. I remember the neighborhood beat cop well and he always had time to stop and chat with shop owners and customers. Then again beat cops are a thing of the past and modern officers spend their time isolated from the public in patrol cars- which is IMO another large problem with modern policing.

Originally posted by NuroSlamI wish I could say its getting better, but its just not, more and more, war veterans are joining the force, not getting the mental help they need to transition back into society and instead view the average american as if they are al quida. Take me for instance, there is actually a security briefings about "anarchists" being domestic terrorists...Really? Violence is not the answer, and since government at its very nature is violent, government must go.

I did 6 years in Iraq and to be honest- yes it was violent, as was my job after some time. Up close and personal kind of violent with terrorists.. not insurgents but the kind of people who take power drills to little girl's joints because they DARE go to school. I didn't carry it home with me though. Perhaps I was lucky in that respect, or had someone watching over me or my brain is wired differently. I could slip right back into police work if I wasn't so busted up and pick up where I left off. Can't say that for everyone though but then again a good 70% of the deployed servicemembers never leave the FOB.

Originally posted by NuroSlam
As you can see from our conversations, I have had nothing but respect because it was mutual. For all you LEO's out there, I will meet you in mutual respect if you can say the same thing to everyone else. That means thinking before speaking, stop viewing the public as the enemy, bring back the old days where you wanted to know the police and didn't mind being around them.

edit on 27-6-2011 by NuroSlam because: (no reason given)

Respect given should be respect returned- it's a basic tenet of human (and animal) interaction. The fact that it is too often lacking I think reflects more on society than simply the police profession. Cops come from the society in which they are raised and we, as a whole, have become a pack of Jersey Shore cast members concerned with getting drunk, getting laid and having it all about "me" with the attendant lack of social graces. My take is fix society and you'll fix the issues with police work.

Oversimplified of course- hope I got my jist across.

reply to post by SFA437


Some decent posts there SFA437

From an outsider of the US I can only see the problem esculating for you guys and change for the better needs to be drastic and fast.

It would take disgarding the heavy handed approach total retraining and to choose better recruits to quell dissent,which imo will get more officers killed in the line of duty to restore some respect back from many,but whats the alternative? as I see it the general public are looking for the straw that breaks the camels back and crap will happen on mass,which will be far worse.

Like the standard practice of hand cuffing and searching a suspect,if they are innocent they will walk away from the events with a lot of ill feeling toward the police(I know I would).

Yeah this is more than not fairyland and is not going to happen,which is why it concerns me more.

The worst treatment to me in this country and the only bad treatment (other than just badly trained) I`ve had was about a year ago,the missus and myself were driving down a road in a non built up area with nothing around but Aussie bush on a nice dual carriage way,we were having a chat about something and my eye`s were focus only in front,I look over to my left and see a normal car driving beside me with some guy going mental pointing to his shoulder,I finally worked out he was a cop in a plain car,anyway he speeds up and swerves toward us forcing me off the road with two wheels (luckily I`ve got a 4x4 which has constant 4x4) I stop the car and he gets out comes over ranting and raving like a loonatic that he was driving along side me for a while trying to get my attention because I was driving 10km over the speed limit in a 70 zone (it was 80 before the dual carriage way,go figure?).He walked off got in his car and drove off,leaving us shocked stunned and puzzled that someone could do that over 10km over the limit and not book us but run us off the road.

This dwelled on me for a few days and went and reported the incident to the sargent at our local,who took it quite serious.
I was angry and he knew it,heck a police officer just put our lives at risk over 10km.

I havn`t had even a speeding ticket for about 15 years and the worst was a DUI when I was young.So our guys over here can be affected by having a bad day as well,but at least our guys are friendly and not intimidating 99% of the time that I`ve seen throughout my life and I`m getting to be an old mungrel.

I hope you guys sort the crap out over there and also hope it never reaches our shores to that extent.

Again my thanks to you SFA. You have done more to answer the OP than all the rest of the pages here. I would walk into hell beside a man like yourself and any other servant of the public,and hence my trust, with the level of respect for the position you show.
You have struck the very essence of the partnership which must exist in a healthy society, one based upon the common goal of a peaceful community of laws, shared responsibility for adherence to them and respect for all members of the society.
seed

It was a very interesting OP, thank you.

All I can say is the root cause might be that people in general (law enforcement and civilian alike) are growing more selfish and mistrustful of each other. Community itself has been under assault for a long time and here we can see the results.

I was thinking about this on the way home, now since i'm an anarchist, I believe that government is evil at its core with its continued threat of violence, I believe in voluntary relationships and that their are free market solutions to all government functions. But since there are police bulletins saying that anyone who has this belief is a domestic terrorist, why should I respect the LEO?

I never believe the person who lives in an industrialized nation, but claims to be an anarchist.

It's too easy. It's like a porn star who believes in Monogamy outside of the work place.
It's easy to claim you are an anarchist when you live in a country with police and fire and emergency responders at the beck and call of anyone with a cell phone.

Shouldn't you be so disgusted by the system in most industrialized nations that they would attempt to move to somewhere like Rwanda, or some truly remote South American places where they could practice their philosophy in truth.

So I'm a hardcore Communist living the capitalist dream in America. Why? uhm, because moving to Cuba would suck.

To claim that the police don't deserve your respect because you disagree with the system of the entire nation, which exists to protect your right to make that complaint in the first place. It's childish.

I count self professed anarchists in the same group with self professed satanists. They have no real commitment to an ideology, they just like saying it out loud because they live in a country where they are allowed to say it out loud.

None of this is a personal attack, and in my opinion it does relate to directly to the topic. Because so few people in America have actually lived in situations where your human rights and your giant list of civil rights are at the worst, marginally "bent" sometimes, it's easy to throw around powerful phrases like Police State and other such nonsense.
I wouldn't hazard to guess how many self professed anarchists there were in the Soviet Union 20 years ago or any of the other true police states around the world.

But I would hazard to say that if you were living there at the time, your philosophy would be completely different than the one your are espousing in this thread.

You are emboldened by the freedoms and entitlements afforded you throughout your lifetime without the acknowledgement of the giants on whose shoulders you stand to give your speeches.

While I certainly understand your mistrust, and fear of police, I think your reasons are aggrandized and ring false. If your last post is how you really feel then it is a petulant display that only succeeds in acting mainly as a challenge to perceived authority. A machine for you to rage against.

I still say that the general attitude toward cops is based on people, in cities, who have to deal with cops who are being trained to be more aggressive, more militant, and who walk onto the first day of the job with a clearly defined "enemy".


I don't really think it is a failure of community or society as a whole.
I live in a part of town on the edges of a decent sized city. My area isn't considered wealthy, it is often called, Ghetto, and I admit there are a great many people who live in my neighborhood, whom I feel are just ignorant animals for the most part. But I still talk to them. I still walk my dogs, gun on hip, answer the same dumb questions over and over and try desperately not to run over the children and toddlers they let run loose in the streets until 2 am during the summer, and school nights.
I judge them, yes. I just did so. I honestly think some of them are so dumb they are the living equivalent to eating pooping baby making machines. That is all they do, and all they will ever be.

But I still talk to them. I try to be nice, I try to be interested in whats going on with them, and while I may scoff internally at the "important" things they fill up their time complaining about, I do try to be a part of my community.
I try to make myself available so that I have the chance to be a part of my community.
And lots of them are the same way. I can see it on their faces. They don't want to talk to me? They don't "get" me. But they talk to me anyway. They are nice, and they try to make small talk, and then we go back to stuff we were actually interested in.

Something that unifies us in conversation, is the ever present threat of the police. Now in my area we actually hit 3 jurisdictions right on the mark. Unincorporated county, with Sheriffs, but also One city municipal police force and another municipal city police force, converge and overlap inside out neighborhood.

So a 911 call can and has generated 3 different police forces converging on the same place at the same time. And I can tell you honestly out of the 3 I'll take the Sheriffs deputies any day of the week.

The Sheriffs deputies are in general less concerned with arrests and tickets, and often seem more concerned with making sure everyone involved is safe, and understands WHY what just happened was a bad thing.

The two municipal police officers always seem like they are just hoping, someone will do something that allows them to pull the taser, the extenda-stick thing, or a pistol.

I think the training is totally different. The municipal/city cops, wear tacticool pants and combat boots and button up duty shirts. The Sheriffs deputies wear the ugly brown and yellow uniforms and duty shoes.
The city cops have much more gear on their belts than the deputies, and their cruisers have bike racks and all kinds of junk while the sheriffs deputies have a big shovel for moving roadkill.

The sheriffs deputies seem more like public servants, while every member of the municipal police force I've encountered here, come across like they are just waiting, impatiently, to join the swat team so they can do some "real" work.

I show police respect when I interact with them personally.

But only because I don't want them to put me in handcuffs, give me a fine or put me in jail.

Originally posted by butcherguy
I show police respect when I interact with them personally.

But only because I don't want them to put me in handcuffs, give me a fine or put me in jail.

Exactly. Only an idiot pokes the tiger when the door is always half open. And that's how I look at it. The tiger is only in the cage because I haven't done anything to gain it's closer scrutiny. And the cage is only there for the appearance that it isn't allowed to run free and do as it pleases.
Everyone involved knows the truth is significantly different, but, even the tiger has days where it is less interesting in ripping things apart, so you just hope and pray your run into the cage quietly, and with no stick in your hand. LOL

reply to post by Butterbone


First, please explain what rights they protect
Second I believe in anarcho capitalism why wouldn't I live in an indsutrialised nation

reply to post by NuroSlam


Honestly I think police are supposed to be the first line of defense against the very laws they are paid to uphold. (note the lack of "enforce").
Unreasonable search and seizure to name one.

I know that this is actually one of the things that the police abuse the most in the name of protecting us, but in reality, the process is supposed to be tedious and difficult for them so that they have to weigh that option constantly. If getting a warrant does not seem worthwhile, or if in the process of getting a warrant and then they find nothing, there was a punitive system involved for that, then they would not abuse it so often.

But by design, police are there with long procedures and tedious rules, so that the government or it's agents can't simply point a finger at the house of someone they dislike and have it torn apart.

All in all I would much rather see a return to the ideals that each person is allowed to take responsibility for themselves. No one should be hired to protect us, or to enforce the laws arbitrarily. Police force is a good idea, poorly implemented from day 1. Even when you go back to England before America was a colony, you see that the idea of a police force was only applied in the cities, and even then it was almost exclusively used to control and corral the lower classes, and to collect fines and levies for behavior that was only made illegal when it annoyed the upper classes.

The anarchy thing was based just off your statement as a blanket anarchist. No offense. It's just one of those things I find amusing.