Theists and Atheists: A Conspiracy Against Each Other

reply to post by ExistentialNightmare


Ah. That would be the white wash and rose colored glasses I was talking about. A number of small problems.

Calling someone delusional is demeaning them. Calling them dangerous, dumb, primitive animals whom are the source of all the worlds problems is also demeaning them.

Am I to take it you know Dr. Dawkins personally and are in fact a mindreader?

And stop intriducing contexts not touched on in my post. You're confusing yourself. Not me.

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows

Am I to take it you know Dr. Dawkins personally and are in fact a mindreader?

Not at all, but i know who he votes for; i've read much of his work; philosophical and scientific; and i pay attention to his blog. I'm just an enthusiast in his work.

I certainly wouldn't claim to understand the mind as religious people claim to understand the mind of Jesus, Yahweh or Allah.

reply to post by ExistentialNightmare


Say this with me: "Generalization is logically falacious.". Not all religious people claim that as such. In fact a lot will tell you, if you listen, that they view the mind of "god" as unknowable. But hey, strawmen are so much more satisfying huh?

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows

Say this with me:Generalization is logically falacious.

Nice try but no, i won't say that with you; i said religious people, i didn't say ALL religious people. There was nothing falacious about that comment whatsoever. I enjoyed your laughter and your demeaning "say it with me" comment.

And it's not just religious people that claim to understand the mind of a God, the faiths are formed on doctrine which makes extraordinary claims; i'm skeptical of them; and i have an opinion and i'm allowed to share it; whether it be logical, philosophical or ethical or moral. The books claims to reveal the unknown (in detail); and without evidence (that's not falacious?)

If you'd wish to discuss fallacies, i'd be more than happy to oblige. We could even have a formal debate.

reply to post by ExistentialNightmare


Actually. That comment wasn't just for your most recent assertion.

Though you refered to the umbrella term "religious people" the all is implied. Otherwise you'd have specified. Rather like when said atheists don't seek to demean people. When there are those who do. So, is it laziness or design?

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows

This is what i said.

I certainly wouldn't claim to understand the mind as religious people claim to understand the mind of Jesus, Yahweh or Allah.

I used the umbrella term because which other person claims to know the mind of God? Is it Atheists? Is it Liberals? NO.

I didn't say ALL individuals of religion. Understand that. I could equally say Satanists claim to understand the mind of the Devil, did i say ALL Satanists? NO.

So don't accuse me of logical fallacies or gross generalisations; your laughing faces don't make your argument any more fervent.

Rather like when said atheists don't seek to demean people

Can i have a quote? Did i say ALL Atheists don't seek to demean people? Where have i said this?

Originally posted by littled16
Too many times in forums (not just ATS) I see Theists and Atheists attacking each other. It can get really ugly as each group bashes the other while they try to shove their beliefs down each other's throats. I don't know that it is organized or not, but it just seems like there is a nasty war going on between extremists of the two "factions".

Why people attack each other for their spiritual beliefs has always been beyond my scope of understanding. If someone is a Theist what in your religeon teaches you to attack and ridicule people who don't share your belief system? And if someone is an Atheist why do you attack and ridicule people for not disbelieving as you do?

I wonder sometimes if this "war of beliefs" is something that may be propogated by TPTB. It could be a smart move on their part. How can people put their political differences aside and come together to fight against political injustice if they can't "live and let live" and just agree to disagree when it comes to spiritual beliefs? How much time is wasted bashing and calling each other names and getting downright hateful instead of looking at what our political leaders are doing to ALL OF US even now?

This war of spiritual beliefs is popping up everywhere, especially on the web. Look at the comments sections at the end of a news article. Chances are good that at least a few people are going off topic and having a war of words about their beliefs, or lack thereof. Recently I was reading an article concerning Comet Elenin (which I am not sure what my opinion is on that subject) and it turned into a war of Theists vs. Atheists. I commented that I found the article interesting, but it was a shame that it had turned into belief bashing. A reply called me a "bible basher". I found it humorous, for I am a Christian.

So do you think TPTB and the MSM could be behind some of this ugliness that is spreading like the plague? I'd be interested to know what others think.

The War of Theists vs.Atheists...
Interesting way to put it, as I am not sure you could classify it as a War. Although, I do see why you label it as 'War' considering how quickly and volatile those discussions get when the 2 sides come together.
Although I am a Theist (But not an extremist), I find that my views are more or less within the 'Gray Area'. So, it makes it easier for me to examine both extreme views without adhering fully to either side.
As far as Why goes...
I venture to guess that it stems mostly from stubbornness, arrogance, and/or ignorance.
The extreme, hardcore Theists tend to shun all science and technology because to them they are tools of the 'Devil', and seem to adhere to what their particular religion tells them to be True! As a result, they deny what science has shown to be True, and this is something that the Atheist (Or any other reasonable person) just cannot accept.
The extreme, hardcore Atheist tend to shun any and all religious beliefs that have no scientific evidence to substantiate any of their claims about GOD. As a result, they deny taking anything that any religious texts say is True, and this is something that the Theist cannot accept due to their own reasons for believing in their particular religion.
However, both are something that I cannot accept because I do not deny science, nor do I deny GOD! But that's just Me!...so, now back to them.
As you can see, it's a vicious circle of extreme views. A circle that takes only a blink of an eye for One to enter in to, but can take an eternity for One to ever get out of. Especially, when One doesn't notice the fact that he/she is within the circle in the first place.
Why do they allow their emotions to run rampant when they converse on the subject of GOD, even when it doesn't even really relate to the thread...? I could speculate, but I'm not going to. So, you'll have to ask the ones who do it!
Does it have anything to do with a conspiracy involving TPTB or MSM...?

reply to post by ExistentialNightmare


Well, I do apologise my mirth bothers you so. But I have a hardtime not laughing when someone constantly argues against side arguments I never made. The artifical introduction of contexts by you I spoke of earlier. You see I don't know where you get such thing like your apparent recent assumptive leap I didn't know you were talking about "Religious" people. But, that is a guess on my part. Anyrate.

And in your indignation you appear to have missed were I pointed out that when you use such terms without specifying the natural inference is all.

reply to post by littled16

but it just seems like there is a nasty war going on between extremists of the two "factions".

Umm no. Are there ardent supporters of theism and atheism - YEP. Do they get into heated discussions at times - YEP. Are they anything like real-life extremists - NOPE. Sorry but there are REAL extremists in this world, there are real Muslims terrorists, real Christians who kill abortion doctors. A few zealous internet debaters are not extremists by any stretch of the imagination.

Why people attack each other for their spiritual beliefs has always been beyond my scope of understanding.

My policy has always been to attack the belief not the believer. You're right that ad hominem attacks don't do either side any good and just bring the discussion down to school-yard level.

And if someone is an Atheist why do you attack and ridicule people for not disbelieving as you do?

I've been known to ridicule, although I try to ridicule the belief and not the believer. Seeing as how I used to be a believer I understand that most believers are just ordinary folks like me they just happen to adhere to a position I see as logically indefensible and kinda childish (not that they themselves are childish). Again I agree, both sides should be attacking each other's positions and beliefs (or lack of beliefs) NOT attacking each other directly... but then this is the internet, and there is such a thing as keyboard courage.

I wonder sometimes if this "war of beliefs" is something that may be propogated by TPTB.

Religion has often been a tool for control and I suppose that tensions between the religious and non-religious could be used... but in general I don't see anyone in power truly involved in this debate. You don't see the Pope or the President debating many atheists do you? Speaking of which Obama is one of the first Presidents to even mention non-believers, for the most part those in power have ignored the debate between atheists and theists.

and just agree to disagree when it comes to spiritual beliefs?

Depends on the belief generally. If a theist wants to believe in God I've got no problem with that generally speaking. BUT if that belief infringes on someone else's rights (keeps certain groups from getting married for instance) or causes direct harm (gets a kid killed because the parents choose prayer over medicine) than I'm going to do my best to convince people to not believe those things. There are plenty of spiritual beliefs that I'm willing to agree to disagree about but ones that cause harm are not amongst them and unfortunately that underlying belief in God can often hold up a whole host of irrational and harmful beliefs.

So do you think TPTB and the MSM could be behind some of this ugliness that is spreading like the plague? I'd be interested to know what others think.

I'd say no. Generally the debate has heated up thanks to something called the Atheist visibility movement. For a long time non-believers sat back and were pretty quiet about it but recently with folks like Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens atheism has gained a bit more courage and has become a more open topic especially online. You're right though that the discussion too often devolves into name calling on both sides, something we should all try to avoid if we hope to have an intelligent conversation on the subject