Are the diagnoses of sociopathy/psychopathy/narcissim *themseves* dehumanizing?

reply to post by silent thunder


Excellent thread and one now close to my heart as according to the test that was placed on a similar thread I am a Sociopath!!!!

The test which I now cant seem to find, there were 20 questions and you gave youself a score from 1-3 on each. Any higher than 29 and you were officially a sociopath. I scored 36!!!!!

This kinda messed with my head and I admit I was somewhat bummed out. so after this test I did some research and these are what a socipath is meant to be like.

Glibness and Superficial Charm

Yes I possess what Ill call charm, but so does anyone else with any confidence and yes most of the time its fake i.e for work or flirting situations it is somewhat "superficial"

Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.

While I have an extensive background in sales, marketing and advertising and may have picked up a few psychological tools along the way I in no way see people as tools to be used ,but yes I dont see an issue with motivating/manipulating someone into doing something that will benefit me provided it doesnt hurt them in any way. As for domineering, humiliating or hostile behavior hell I wouldnt even spank my GF and call her names when she asked me too let alone doing that stuff of my own accord.

Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."

Errrr..... yeah OK Ill admit I think Im pretty good, but I personally think of it as confidence which is a plus isnt it?
By confidence I mean I know Im the equal of anyone I may meet (they may be better at something but Ill be better at something else and vice versa) as opposed to arrogance which is thinking your better than anyone else.

Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.

Maybe im a work Sociopath as I have on almost a daily basis lied to clients and customers about small things, yeah I own one of these, yeah Ive set up one of those etc etc nothing big just sales speak, and everytime I go for a new contract Ill always exaggerate the previous successes, to me its more important that I deliver what the person is after and have knocked back jobs when I felt i couldnt deliver.

Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.

Ok rage in me is almost non existant, Other than a month ago when someone tried to kill my kiten I think the last time I was more than frustrated was when I was like 16. I have friends and good ones too, some Ive known since I was 6 and still keep in touch regularly

Need for Stimulation
Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.

Yeah I do need alot of stimulation but Ive also heard this is a Gemini thing, never had a verbal outburst and only been in 2 fights both of which I was the Victim not perp. Gotta admit up until I got busted a few years back I was a bit of a man whore and I do enjoy Hold em poker and a bit of blackjack but most peole I know are the same.

Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.

yes I didnt do well in school but more out of boredom than a need to rebel, I didnt do any class or homework for 3 years but they kept putting me up as I did well in national tests on Science, Maths and English normally winning awards for my school in them.
Never had an issue with making friends, yeah when I was 14 I stole from my parents a few times but can catergorically say Ive never been cruel to an animal in my life (I hope spending an hour to get my Kitty into his custom made hat doesnt count as cruelty)

Theres a few others but i think you get the point, I skirt the fringe on almost all of them.
Just read something else that says a symptom of being a socipath is thinking theres nothing wrong with you Guess I must be one then

I personally dont think Im a bad person or wrong but apparently they are symptoms so can you guys let me know what you think based on what I said above whether Im a toxic person who needs to be reformed or if Im just slightly self centered?

Cheers

reply to post by IkNOwSTuff


Sounds like you are under 25.

Sociopaths tend to not let themselves be known as they know the value of their mask of sanity.

A narcissistic might do what you just did with that post, but a sociopath likely would not.

If you are as you claim, expect the mods to have their eye on you now that they know you are dishonest and that they will nail you for a T&C violation when you try to lie or victimize an ATS member in some way.

reply to post by IkNOwSTuff


I was on probation for a DWI and had to take a "correctional thinking" class. I came to find out that what is thought of as being "academically gifted" matches up about 80-90% with being a narcissist. A "criminal mind" and one who is of a creative mind are nearly identical.

"it is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society" -krishnamurti

Related: positive disintegration

I notice the terms being thrown about willy-nilly also. It's become rather like calling someone "retarded", because they missed a point, or made a mistake; or calling someone a "narcissist" because they blew their whole paycheck on new clothes. I take these comments off the cuff.

True Psychopathy is actually very *uncommon*. Most people will live out their entire lives without ever even meeting someone with a genuine diagnosis of "psychopath" or "sociopath" or "anti-social personality disorder", or the term du jour. Same with true geniuses, by the way, and I marvel at how many people here, take a web IQ test, then proclaim themselves a "genius". Lol. Again, most people will live out their lives without ever meeting one.

As far as these disorders being "untreatable", I'm on the fence too, although to be honest I've never seen either one successfully treated, not to say it couldn't happen. I was once seeing one (at my office) whose mother had died, and he had been to the funeral a few days earlier. Because they DO experience their own pain, I wondered how he felt at the funeral. He said he cried during the funeral. My eyes brightened, and I think my heart rate picked up a little with excitement, until he egregiously informed me he was crying because now there will be no one to make his lunch everyday.

As far as a misdiagnosis actually damaging someone.....well, it's not like we put it in the paper. Mostly the only way others would know the diagnosis has been made is if the patient told them. They "fake it" extremely well, and for the most part live relatively normal lives, unless the criminality route is pursued. Prisons seem to keep a booming population.

reply to post by IkNOwSTuff

reply to post by unityemissions

have you ever heard the saying "madness is catching"?
as unityemissions just pointed out:
being well adjusted to Bizzarro World is a sign of sickness

[well actually it was Krishnamurti, but you know what i mean]

we all have a touch of it

one of the "secrets" of the Occult and the recovery of our ancient heritage of Power [as opposed to dominion]
is to go contrary to the way of the world and society.

here is an instructional and very interesting video for everyone.

reply to post by DerepentLEstranger


Is it possible to be partially psychopathic? We show vague terms to define them, but many people show similar traits.

To me, this all seems like another way to define genetic variation within the human race and call it a disorder. Are all psychopaths the same? Do they all show the same traits? It was mentioned in the video, but what will define the boarders? It is just so vague. It seems like you will only be diagnosed if you piss enough people off. It is the same with ADD/ADHD and the like.

Wouldn't a true psychopath use their own disorder to justify their own behavior? If a non-psychopath was wrongly diagnosed, wouldn't they do the same and start "fitting the mold"? They will use a label to defend their own behavior.

So much of this is in the grey area. It seems like a trap to define people in this way. People we don't like or understand can all be easily called psychopaths. They seem foreign to us because they have a different background and personality. So, to some, the person is very foreign to them-a psychopath.

We use negative terms to describe many mental "disorders" but I feel it is natural genetic variation (for the most part). We have different brains and different personalities. Not every personality type is a disorder.

What is normal anyways?

Edit-We like to categorize people. It is one of the ways the brain functions. That does not mean someone has a disorder. Saying so only hurt the individual in question. It is saying it isn't natural. How aren't all of us natural in some way? Some things are not a choice. When will "normal" people be described as a disorder? Give it 10 more years and normal today will be a disorder then. Categorizing human behavior is like categorizing the stars in space. We can vaguely do it, but none of them are exactly the same, and there is always more surprises out there (as well as exceptions).

reply to post by adraves

You have a fascinating point there. I have compassion, empathy, etc., but if I came across someone who was doing something horrifically wicked to a kitten, for example, I'd rip their throat out with my teath like a vampire, and shishkabob them with the nearest long steel or wooden pole, ....... and relish in it.
Is THAT psychopathic? I truly honestly don't know.

reply to post by silent thunder


Yes, I agree completely with you. Here is a story that verifies your point.

My sister works for an agency that specializes in interviewing, for the police, children who are victims of sexual abuse. Before she enters the interview room she is given a report sheet detailing the child's history, which includes a psychological overview done before hand by a "specialist". Many times this psychological overview describes the child as having different disorders. On one occasion, she was set to interview a young girl who was 7 years old and the report read that she was highly psychotic, schizophrenic and bi-polar. My sister became a little scared to enter the room, and when she did she did so with caution. After a few minutes she found out that this little girl wasn't much different from any other young girl who had been sexually abused. In fact, she thought the girl was fairly normal. She was kind, calm, polite and intelligent. Nothing weird about her, in my sister's opinion.

That night she called me and said very similar things that you have stated in this thread. She noticed a few very insightful things about this type of uniform categorization, which is, not only does it change and effect her initial perception and interaction with these kids, but she also wondered how this in turn effected the kids; to be acknowledged and spoken to as if they are defective or crazy. It seems this form of defining our children as having all sorts of psychological disorders does more harm then good. Many of my childhood friends were labeled as ADHD or Bi-Polar at a young age and this definitely negatively effected their confidence and perception of who they were. Hopefully the industry of psychology grows out of this desire to assign categorical definitions of disorders to everyone they meet and instead learn to focus more-so on methods of empowering people to overcome their problems. Without the ability to help people figure out their problems, and do so without drugs, psychology is rendered utterly useless.

Peace.

Hmm, thanks for reviving this old-ish thread of mine, I'm glad it is still of interest to some.

I think in the end, MRI/brain-scan tech will settle a lot of things, for good or for ill. And it will probably displace a lot of the old categories. While I think psychology has given us much of value, a lot of it is no better than phrenology to be perfectly blunt, and there needs to be a shakeout. Although I am leery of this technology for other reasons, too...one more thing to worry about. Twas ever thus.

Formulating a brain-scan-based taxonomy for psychology would be a great achievement for a rising power...in most of Europe, the academic standards are too entrenched, but perhaps one of the BRICs nations could pull it off, moving beyond imitation to innovation in an academic sense. I would like to see America pull it off, of course, as an American, and it is possible. Switzerland? Lot of things go down in Switzerland, a truly beautiful country, with traditions of freedom, financial privacy, and great medical-science infrastructure. Or perhaps some player from out of left field. Who knows.

reply to post by silent thunder


You are very welcome. This subjects does interests me.

A brain scan-based taxonomy would be a great achievement. It would be a new age in understanding why so many of us are different, and how. With new advancements in genetics, the progress could be amazing.

As great as it would be, I fear that day much more. I am leery like you. We have come a long way with equal rights. What will happen when your scan predisposes you to some behavior? Imagine a job interview that scans you, schools tailored to brain types, and different insurances for certain scans. Do we really want that? It sounds much-too-much like Brave New World, Gattica, and Minority Report. It could easily become a tool to oppress certain people and personalities. It would happen. There is no way it wouldn't. It would be done in the name of advancing our understanding. Some of the craziest people have contribute more to history because they started new memes, this goes for psychopaths as well. Following the mold (being normal) is not all it is cracked up to be. Our societies need fringe thinkers to progress. Following the safe road wont change anything.

We hated what the Nazis did, but we still use some of there scientific research. New technology has no ethics. We should be leery of it because it is almost always used for good and much ill.

Anyways. I do agree there needs to be a shake-out. Things are getting crazy. Is it 1/10 kids diagnosed with ADD/ADHD now?

Peace~

Originally posted by silent thunder
Greetings ATS.

Seems like we hear the terms "sociopathy" and "psychopathy" recently (as well as allied disorders such as pathological narcissism) thrown around a lot. I won't link you to any definitions or discussions of what these terms entail -- if you don't already know, there is a wealth of information on ATS and off about the nature of these conditions.

I think the phenomena of psychopathy/sociopathy exist and are valid to point out. What I am less able to get behind is the idea that these are "incurable diseases." Well, maybe. But I have not seem much proof along these lines, only assertions.

When you label somebody as a "sociopath" or narcissist, etc., I would suggest that the diagnosis itself can be dehumanizing.. Why? Because if somebody is given one of these labels, with the presumption that it is an incurable personality disorder, you are basically saying to them: "You are not fully functional because you are missing empathy and you will never be able to feel it. Therefore you aren't really fully human, and we don't have to treat you as such." This places the sociopath even farther outside normal society than he or she might already have been.

How do we really know that these conditions are "incurable?" The brain is enormously plastic, and even people with some forms of severe brain damage have been able to recover their abilities and selves to a great extent after effort and therapy. Might there be a better way to treat the sociopath/psychopath than simply "shunning" them as some kind of incurable monster? Perhaps these diagnoses themselves only make the problem worse.

Can you r say for sure from the outside that another human has no empathy, has no feelings, has no morality? perhaps. But can you really say that they will never be able to develop these qualities and grow as human beings? Putting limits on what humans are mentally/spiritually/emotionally capable of seems a dangerous game to play. What if you are wrong?

Just a thought.

Narcissism is treatable with Cognitive therapy. Narcissists can be real dicks, so I don't think there is anything dehumanizing about calling a spade a spade.

reply to post by PhantomLimb


Why not just call them jerks and be done with it then?

Why is everything "pathologized" ? Don't answer, rhetorical question.

Originally posted by silent thunder
reply to post by PhantomLimb

 

Why not just call them jerks and be done with it then?

Why is everything "pathologized" ? Don't answer, rhetorical question.

I'm going to answer anyway because the question needs it. Not everything is regarded as psychologically abnormal or unhealthy. But, in regards to Narcissists and their blatant disregard for others feelings, their propensity to mentally abuse their partners, and their unwarranted self importance they tend to do real harm to people's lives along with their own. It's destructive therefore it needs to be addressed. Why is this so hard to understand?

Wow seems like an awful lot of biased opinons getting posted, an awful lot of hipocracy with people condemning those who condemn others. Let ye without sin cast the first stone! A Narcissist is described as being excessively preoccupied with issues of personal adequacy. Seems to be an awful lot of that here on ATS, from self proclaimed vampires to the indigo children, and every ridiculous self imposed title which individuals swear by. I've done a lot of research into these various alternative human classifications, and oddly enough, I fit into every category! Yup that's right, I'm a vampiric psychic werewolf indigo child who has ADHD based on the qualifications, and yet I'm none of those things, even though all of my responses to the character traits tell me I am. What I'm saying is, we are all humans beings, there is a lot of things about our own existence we will never understand, but to sit here and label yourself an otherwordly creature because you want to feel superior amongst your peers is extremely arrogant. WE ARE HUMAN BEINGS, and the sooner some people come to terms with it, and whole-heartedly appreciate our humanity in all of its chaotic splendor, the better off we will all be.

reply to post by IkNOwSTuff


reply to post by IkNOwSTuff


Reading your situation, if what you're saying is all true, then I don't think you're a sociopath. Perhaps you scored high on that test because of faulty testing.

Although I'd like to note, that oftentimes it is hard to see the negative qualities about ourselves, and it's important to listen to other people when they call us out on bad habits we might have. For example, selfishness, bad listener, uncaring, etc. In my case, I used to be a super bad listener. It even affected my friendships with people, and I didn't even realize why. That was until someone pointed out that I was a bad listener. I was like, noooo, I thought I was a good listener. But then they pointed out how often I interrupted them, and it dawned on me that I really wasn't listening, I was too busy thinking of what I was going to say, and I would say it as quickly as possible even if that meant I would interrupt.

So what I'm saying is, it's very possible like me, that you have some negative qualities that you might not be aware of, but one day someone will point it out to you. Not that you are unaware of psychotic tendencies, but I'm just referring to negative ones. And I'm guessing, if you're not psychotic, once you notice those negative qualities you'll try to fix them. And not try to fix them like how can I get people not to notice these negative patterns or how to better hide them -- that would be the motivation of a psychopath. But to fix them by getting rid of the negative behavior because you want to make yourself a better person. A psychopath would fix them to make themselves a better liar.

Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
I was once seeing one (at my office) whose mother had died, and he had been to the funeral a few days earlier. Because they DO experience their own pain, I wondered how he felt at the funeral. He said he cried during the funeral. My eyes brightened, and I think my heart rate picked up a little with excitement, until he egregiously informed me he was crying because now there will be no one to make his lunch everyday.

Oh my goodness! That is terrible. How old was he when he said that? I'm just curious. Although child or adult saying that, that is absolutely horrible...

I have a very strong feeling that my boyfriend's sister is a psychopath. I pointed it out to him, and he's not sure, but he thinks it's possible. One of the biggest signs I saw on Saturday, when I was talking to his mother, and she told me that even as an infant she always rejected her and didn't want anything to really do with her. I was shocked, how can a baby reject her own mother? Then on Monday my boyfriend found evidence when he was moving some boxes in the attic, and an envelope fell out. In it it was addressed to his mother, and it said how his mother owed $800 to the Utility company at an address his sister lived at. With permission of his mother, he retrieved her credit report for her, and the $800 bill was on there too still unpaid. As horrible as this sounds, his sister put her mother's name on the Energy bill, and never paid it for over 10 years now.

The thing is, is it possible to get her to see a psychiatrist? For one, she has no job so there is no way she can afford it. And her whole family is pretty much sick of her, they definitely won't pay to have her see a psychiatrist when they have so many bills of their own to pay. She also has a baby, and she very frequently uses her baby as an excuse that she can't do something when it's something she doesn't want to do. Oh, you want me to help you do something, I have to take my baby somewhere (which turns out to be a lie). That sort of thing. So I severely doubt she would get help from a psychiatrist.

So what can one do? Just continue to point out every time she lies or abuses her own family? Because my boyfriend and his older nephew (who is 20), are kind of sick of her, and they're thinking about ending their relationship with her, which is sad, because if she is a psychopath, that would mean she can't help what she's doing. :/

Originally posted by simone50m
reply to post by adraves

 

You have a fascinating point there. I have compassion, empathy, etc., but if I came across someone who was doing something horrifically wicked to a kitten, for example, I'd rip their throat out with my teath like a vampire, and shishkabob them with the nearest long steel or wooden pole, ....... and relish in it.
Is THAT psychopathic? I truly honestly don't know.

I think that would be a moment of temporary insanity. I think it would be psychopathic if you saw them do that, but then stalked them every night and planned how you were going to kill them slowly so that they suffered in the most unimaginable way possible.

reply to post by Xaberz


I would be cautious of giving anyone this label, based on upaid bills, and lies. She is perhaps irresponsible and self centered, but these alone do not merit such a harsh diagnosis. As for "pointing out her lies and abuses", I'm sure the familly members are aware of these, moreso than you, so bringing attention to it might not be for the best. What do you expect them to do? They will have to decide how to deal with it.

Rejecting a parent as a small child is not typical of psychopathy. They experience an knowledgment of dependence on the parent, and want to keep the relationship viable. When infants show a "disconnect" with a parent, it is most often autism.

So what do I advise you to do? I advise you to do nothing. Narcissist might also have some of these behaviors, but when they are no longer young, they pay dearly for their youthful acts. Depression sets in.

Truly there might not be a diagnosis. You might be dealing with a selfish, dishonest girl, who is very unhappy.
I would, however, notice how well she is taking care of her child. Be on the lookout for abuse and neglect.

Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
reply to post by Xaberz

 

I would be cautious of giving anyone this label, based on upaid bills, and lies. She is perhaps irresponsible and self centered, but these alone do not merit such a harsh diagnosis. As for "pointing out her lies and abuses", I'm sure the familly members are aware of these, moreso than you, so bringing attention to it might not be for the best. What do you expect them to do? They will have to decide how to deal with it.

Rejecting a parent as a small child is not typical of psychopathy. They experience an knowledgment of dependence on the parent, and want to keep the relationship viable. When infants show a "disconnect" with a parent, it is most often autism.

So what do I advise you to do? I advise you to do nothing. Narcissist might also have some of these behaviors, but when they are no longer young, they pay dearly for their youthful acts. Depression sets in.

Truly there might not be a diagnosis. You might be dealing with a selfish, dishonest girl, who is very unhappy.
I would, however, notice how well she is taking care of her child. Be on the lookout for abuse and neglect.

I didn't mean pointing out her lies to her family. I meant for her family to point out her lies to her because if no one says anything, she's just going to keep doing it. But yes, I haven't said anything to her about it. When I talk to her, I just pretend I don't know any of this, and try to be good natured towards her. Although the more and more upset my boyfriend gets and his family, the more I want to help.

I think that's probably good advice though, to do nothing. Maybe help my boyfriend out when he is frustrated at his sister. I still think it's awful that she used their mother's identity and not pay the bills. It's identity theft. It probably doesn't help that I'm reading a book Devil in the White City where there is a psychopath in that book who does all sorts of scams to take money from friends and family. It just fit oh so nicely in that label. But yeah, labels can be dangerous.