According to Christian tradition, Jesus isn't God

reply to post by Joecroft


Very good point, friend!

Originally posted by Theophorus

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Theophorus

 

jesus clearly says that Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. There can only be one first,one last,one beginning,one end.god does not have to say jesus is god.Jesus declaired that himself.

nonsence...

Revelations was written by an old man in a cave... it can't prove or predict anything.

Jesus never said he was God, its as simple as that

ignorance is not only bliss, its also arrogant. First off the book of revelation is the only book in the bible attributed to jesus.this was the revelation of jesus which god gave him to show his servents what must soon take place.So if any book holds true as to what jesus said, revelation would be it.

Ignorance eh...lol

Alright, show me one thing in revelations thats been proven as factually true. Meaning it has taken place thus it was predicted 2000 some odd years ago.

Revelations is nothing more then a story... Theres no proof it came from Jesus himself... And no proof anything in it will ever "come to pass" that was written about...

So please....show me...

We'll see whos ignorant....

reply to post by Theophorus

Originally posted by Theophorus
Jesus refers to himself as "son of man" and "son of god". Now please joe, ask yourself what those two terms actually mean. Please dont let me hold my breath.

The “Son of God”, means that he (Jesus) is Gods son…

The phrase “Son of man” was used originally by Daniel in the Old Testament, to denote the coming of the Messiah. Jesus admits to being the Messiah, when questioned at his trial, he also admits to being the “Son of God”


Matthew 26:62-66

Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, "Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?" 63But Jesus remained silent.
The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God."

"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, "He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?"
"He is worthy of death," they answered

Note also in the above verse, that Jesus is saying that he i.e. ”the Son of Man”, will be sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One i.e. God the Father.

When Jesus says in the verse Matthew 26:62-66, that he will be “sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One"; this simply isn’t possible, if we are stating that Jesus is God/Father.

It only begins to make sense when we instead state that Jesus is the “Son of God”, and is therefore also a God, but not the Father/God.

My own personal take on this, is that Jesus had the Father speaking through him, but that Jesus also speaks on his own behalf, and is a person in his own right. This IMO, is why there is so much confusion on this issue.



- JC

reply to post by Akragon


Somehow you have confused what we are discussing, that is 'who said what' with 'prove what was said' the proof of who said what is indeed in the bible. I can prove it so.now whether or not what was said is true, well thats simply irrelevant.

reply to post by Joecroft


And how is it that god can have a son? I mean if god is eternal, how could he have gotten to a mature age to produce a son? Where is gods wife? Did god have a child out of wedlock?

Originally posted by Theophorus
reply to post by Akragon

 

Somehow you have confused what we are discussing, that is 'who said what' with 'prove what was said' the proof of who said what is indeed in the bible. I can prove it so.now whether or not what was said is true, well thats simply irrelevant.

edit on 15-6-2011 by Theophorus because: (no reason given)

Yes that was off topic... still revelations proves nothing. Divine revelation in general is way to sketchy to even get into...

You said..

There can only be one first,one last,one beginning,one end.god does not have to say jesus is god.Jesus declaired that himself.

And that...is simply not true.

Jesus Never once said he was God while he was alive... Fact.

Divine Revelation means nothing and shows no proof of anything. Especially considering the fact that the whole book can be twisted and spun around to mean anything. People have been trying to predict things from Revelations for hundreds of years...

Its a waste of time...

So again, Jesus was not God, only a part of God....

reply to post by Akragon


I think you really do not understand.Again, we are discussing the bible and its contents. Not weather it is true or false. Truth is is that jesus said in the bible that HE is the first and the last.The beginning and the end. The alpha and omeaga.God has akso stated this in the old testament. This is a fact.Human reasoning tells us thier can only be one beginning and one end. One first one last.One alpha and omeaga. Conclusion: Jesus and god the father are one co eternal god.there is no other way of reconciling this contradiction

Originally posted by Theophorus
reply to post by Akragon

 

I think you really do not understand.Again, we are discussing the bible and its contents. Not weather it is true or false. Truth is is that jesus said in the bible that HE is the first and the last.The beginning and the end. The alpha and omeaga.God has akso stated this in the old testament. This is a fact.Human reasoning tells us thier can only be one beginning and one end. One first one last.One alpha and omeaga. Conclusion: Jesus and god the father are one co eternal god.there is no other way of reconciling this contradiction

But again, Jesus didn't say that....John of Patmos said that. Which he wrote down from a spirit that visited him... Quite the sensational claim...

On the other hand, the four Gospels were apparently written by people that had first hand contact with Jesus... And no where in those books is there him claiming to be "the" God...

what im saying is the source of Revelations is quesitonable...

reply to post by Akragon


The author of revelation was John the apostle.son of zebedee.you know, the one who Jesus loved.You are saying that this apostle had no first hand knowledge of Jesus. You know nothing about the bible and it shows.

Originally posted by Theophorus
reply to post by Akragon

 

The author of revelation was John the apostle.son of zebedee.you know, the one who Jesus loved.You are saying that this apostle had no first hand knowledge of Jesus. You know nothing about the bible and it shows.

That hasn't actually been proven... some believe it wasn't the same person.

John of Patmos

John the Apostle

I know nothing because i make a slight error which isn't even a mistake technically...

nice..

reply to post by Akragon


External evidence seems overwhelmingly supportive of the traditional view.Dionysius claims wernt conclusive.still and all either john the apostle or john the presbyter. They both knew jesus.this argument holds no water

reply to post by Theophorus


Either way, 4 books say hes not God... Revelation which is a questionable book to begin with, says otherwise...

I don't buy it...

The other four gospels sound like words spoken from one man... Revelations sounds nothing like the others...

reply to post by Theophorus

Originally posted by Theophorus
And how is it that god can have a son? I mean if god is eternal, how could he have gotten to a mature age to produce a son? Where is gods wife? Did god have a child out of wedlock?

Not really sure how to answer all your questions, without seriously veering off topic…

Originally posted by Theophorus
“And how is it that god can have a son?”

Well, you will have to argue against the following passage…


Matthew 3:17

And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

God can create anything, including a son...

In fact we are all sons and daughters of God.


Psalm 82:6-8

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations

Jesus even references the above verse in John 10:34-35


As for Gods wife, that’s a tricky question…according to some Gnostic Christian beliefs, God created a mother Goddess, from which the universe was birthed.


- JC

reply to post by Theophorus



Human reasoning tells me that if there is but "one faith", then all believers should be on the same page. "Any kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and a house divided against itself will fall"