U.K. Doctors to act as "Thought Police"

I've placed this thread in the Social Issues and Civil Unrest as I think it is a civil issue, if it is placed wrong please move to the correct forum.

Well, I've just been listening to the radio in the U.K. and was horrified to hear the subject they were discussing.
Apparantly the U.K. Government has made proposals to ask Doctors to inform police if the Doctor thinks they are a terrorist or acting suspicious or harbouring thoughts that "may" lead to radicalisation.

Doctors will be asked to identify people who may be "vulnerable" to recruitment by terrorist groups

Doctors are to be drafted into the fight against terrorism

Whilst the "Prevent" program is not new, this is what I believe to be a step too far. Back in 2005 a leading U.K. Civil Rights spokesperson said...

Shami Chakrabarti, director of the British civil rights watchdog Liberty, told the Guardian that the program is "the biggest domestic spying programme targeting the thoughts and beliefs of the innocent in Britain in modern times."

Doctors are, essentially being asked to accuse people of being guilty before being guilty.

Discuss.

Originally posted by Mister_Bit
I've placed this thread in the Social Issues and Civil Unrest as I think it is a civil issue, if it is placed wrong please move to the correct forum.

Well, I've just been listening to the radio in the U.K. and was horrified to hear the subject they were discussing.
Apparantly the U.K. Government has made proposals to ask Doctors to inform police if the Doctor thinks they are a terrorist or acting suspicious or harbouring thoughts that "may" lead to radicalisation.

Doctors will be asked to identify people who may be "vulnerable" to recruitment by terrorist groups

Doctors are to be drafted into the fight against terrorism

Whilst the "Prevent" program is not new, this is what I believe to be a step too far. Back in 2005 a leading U.K. Civil Rights spokesperson said...

Shami Chakrabarti, director of the British civil rights watchdog Liberty, told the Guardian that the program is "the biggest domestic spying programme targeting the thoughts and beliefs of the innocent in Britain in modern times."

Doctors are, essentially being asked to accuse people of being guilty before being guilty.

Discuss.

Don't get it. How are GP's able to determine the quality of the thoughts a patient has? In most cases a patient visiting a GP will be agitated - sick, must go quack, hope it's not terminal... so they will already be stressed.

I don't get it.

Doctors cannot even detect - or are lack to - doctor shoppers.

"I cant tell if this heroin junky is tripping on me, and has a cache of pills, or if it's a terrorist with a bag full of bombs.. Oh damn you 8 years training, you made me a great doctor but terrible bomb detector. I shall call the authorities post haste!"

Do doctors have terrorist thermometers now?

"Now lay still, while I take your tempera.. OH GOD A TERRORIST!!!!!"

It all sounds rather silly to me.

I have great reservation when doctors are asked to betray doctor/patient confidentiality since not only does it go against the grain and cause huge resistance in the medical professions but deeply undermines the foundations of our society.. neither a good or smart move in my opinion.

It doesn't mean your going to be arrested and thrown in prison on what some doctor says. If somebody comes in rambling about wanting to blow stuff up and seems very agitated they should notify the police. Possibly they may look into your background and forward it along to a higher agency or something along those lines.

Same as doctors having to report gunshot wounds or rape.

It's just another tool to get more information to fight terrorism and like it or not this world is not the same as it was 20 years ago as much as everyone would like it to be.

Nazi Police State here we come.

ALL ABOARD, NOW !

Originally posted by thoughtsfull
I have great reservation when doctors are asked to betray doctor/patient confidentiality since not only does it go against the grain and cause huge resistance in the medical professions but deeply undermines the foundations of our society.. neither a good or smart move in my opinion.

Well there's the problem in a nutshell... if I ever felt angry or violent and I went for treatment, can I now expect a lengthy polive investigation into my movements?
I went for treament BEFORE it becomes a problem, not to be treated as a potential looney!

Originally posted by Mister_Bit

Originally posted by thoughtsfull
I have great reservation when doctors are asked to betray doctor/patient confidentiality since not only does it go against the grain and cause huge resistance in the medical professions but deeply undermines the foundations of our society.. neither a good or smart move in my opinion.

Well there's the problem in a nutshell... if I ever felt angry or violent and I went for treatment, can I now expect a lengthy polive investigation into my movements?
I went for treament BEFORE it becomes a problem, not to be treated as a potential looney!

Very doubtful. They don't have the manpower to investigate everyone so they would more than likely just put your name into the database and see if it connects to any other red flags. If your not a terrorist this shouldn't affect you at all.

reply to post by badw0lf


It would to you badwolf but when you add in the fact that a psychologist is a doctor it appears to come more into focus.

reply to post by kro32

It can and does happen, here is a story but involving a teacher rather than a doctor..

"In September 2006, a 14-year-old schoolgirl, Codie Stott, asked a teacher if she could sit with another group to do a science project as all the girls with her spoke only Urdu. The teacher's first response, according to Stott, was to scream at her: "It's racist, you're going to get done by the police!" Upset and terrified, the schoolgirl went outside to calm down. The teacher called the police and a few days later, presumably after officialdom had thought the matter over, she was arrested and taken to a police station, where she was fingerprinted and photographed. According to her mother, she was placed in a bare cell for 3 1/2 hours. She was questioned on suspicion of committing a racial public order offence and then released without charge."

Taken from a list of similar "thought police" stories on this page...
Thought Police muscle up in Britain...

Is it such a leap to see similar happening in Doctor's surgerys?

Originally posted by Mister_Bit
reply to post by kro32

 

It can and does happen, here is a story but involving a teacher rather than a doctor..

"In September 2006, a 14-year-old schoolgirl, Codie Stott, asked a teacher if she could sit with another group to do a science project as all the girls with her spoke only Urdu. The teacher's first response, according to Stott, was to scream at her: "It's racist, you're going to get done by the police!" Upset and terrified, the schoolgirl went outside to calm down. The teacher called the police and a few days later, presumably after officialdom had thought the matter over, she was arrested and taken to a police station, where she was fingerprinted and photographed. According to her mother, she was placed in a bare cell for 3 1/2 hours. She was questioned on suspicion of committing a racial public order offence and then released without charge."

Taken from a list of similar "thought police" stories on this page...
Thought Police muscle up in Britain...

Is it such a leap to see similar happening in Doctor's surgerys?

I would like to see the source for that story as it seems there is quite a bit you left out to fit your argument but look at it like this.

The kids who shot up Columbine had certainly shown signs of abnormality as this is well documented but nobody ever spoke up or questioned what was going on. If a simple phone call might have prevented the deaths of all those children would that be worth it?

Originally posted by kro32

Originally posted by Mister_Bit
reply to post by kro32

 

It can and does happen, here is a story but involving a teacher rather than a doctor..

"In September 2006, a 14-year-old schoolgirl, Codie Stott, asked a teacher if she could sit with another group to do a science project as all the girls with her spoke only Urdu. The teacher's first response, according to Stott, was to scream at her: "It's racist, you're going to get done by the police!" Upset and terrified, the schoolgirl went outside to calm down. The teacher called the police and a few days later, presumably after officialdom had thought the matter over, she was arrested and taken to a police station, where she was fingerprinted and photographed. According to her mother, she was placed in a bare cell for 3 1/2 hours. She was questioned on suspicion of committing a racial public order offence and then released without charge."

Taken from a list of similar "thought police" stories on this page...
Thought Police muscle up in Britain...

Is it such a leap to see similar happening in Doctor's surgerys?

I would like to see the source for that story as it seems there is quite a bit you left out to fit your argument but look at it like this.

The kids who shot up Columbine had certainly shown signs of abnormality as this is well documented but nobody ever spoke up or questioned what was going on. If a simple phone call might have prevented the deaths of all those children would that be worth it?

Codie Stott

Originally posted by Mister_Bit

Originally posted by kro32

Originally posted by Mister_Bit
reply to post by kro32

 

It can and does happen, here is a story but involving a teacher rather than a doctor..

"In September 2006, a 14-year-old schoolgirl, Codie Stott, asked a teacher if she could sit with another group to do a science project as all the girls with her spoke only Urdu. The teacher's first response, according to Stott, was to scream at her: "It's racist, you're going to get done by the police!" Upset and terrified, the schoolgirl went outside to calm down. The teacher called the police and a few days later, presumably after officialdom had thought the matter over, she was arrested and taken to a police station, where she was fingerprinted and photographed. According to her mother, she was placed in a bare cell for 3 1/2 hours. She was questioned on suspicion of committing a racial public order offence and then released without charge."

Taken from a list of similar "thought police" stories on this page...
Thought Police muscle up in Britain...

Is it such a leap to see similar happening in Doctor's surgerys?

I would like to see the source for that story as it seems there is quite a bit you left out to fit your argument but look at it like this.

The kids who shot up Columbine had certainly shown signs of abnormality as this is well documented but nobody ever spoke up or questioned what was going on. If a simple phone call might have prevented the deaths of all those children would that be worth it?

Codie Stott

Well apparantly they are very strict there and with rules like that the kid should have known better. Not saying I agree with it as I don't but that area has their own way of doing things and if you live there you have to follow the rules. At least she wasn't charged with anything.

Originally posted by kro32

Originally posted by Mister_Bit

Originally posted by kro32

Originally posted by Mister_Bit
reply to post by kro32

 

It can and does happen, here is a story but involving a teacher rather than a doctor..

"In September 2006, a 14-year-old schoolgirl, Codie Stott, asked a teacher if she could sit with another group to do a science project as all the girls with her spoke only Urdu. The teacher's first response, according to Stott, was to scream at her: "It's racist, you're going to get done by the police!" Upset and terrified, the schoolgirl went outside to calm down. The teacher called the police and a few days later, presumably after officialdom had thought the matter over, she was arrested and taken to a police station, where she was fingerprinted and photographed. According to her mother, she was placed in a bare cell for 3 1/2 hours. She was questioned on suspicion of committing a racial public order offence and then released without charge."

Taken from a list of similar "thought police" stories on this page...
Thought Police muscle up in Britain...

Is it such a leap to see similar happening in Doctor's surgerys?

I would like to see the source for that story as it seems there is quite a bit you left out to fit your argument but look at it like this.

The kids who shot up Columbine had certainly shown signs of abnormality as this is well documented but nobody ever spoke up or questioned what was going on. If a simple phone call might have prevented the deaths of all those children would that be worth it?

Codie Stott

Well apparantly they are very strict there and with rules like that the kid should have known better. Not saying I agree with it as I don't but that area has their own way of doing things and if you live there you have to follow the rules. At least she wasn't charged with anything.

Well I didn't really want to discuss this story specifically but I guess it's part of the whole thing..

I don't consider being unable to understand another language as being racist!! The school, as does the whole of the U.K have laws against RACIAL HATRED but since when is not understanding another language "Racial Hatred"??

So if that was to have happened to me, I would have a police record as a potential "radical" or terrorist because I'm of a prosecuteable age.

Well to be fair that article only gave the girls side of the story. It might change if we heard what the teacher or police have to say regarding this event.

Perhaps you should await the report to be published later today to ascertain the validity of this position. As I understand it, the proposals are a re-focussing of policy towards "prevention". For example, the UK government will no longer give wads of cash to groups if they do not uphold certain (undefined) principles e.g. such as women's rights, democracy et al.

The criticism of the policy enacted by the last (Labour) Government was that it was “politically correct” to give money to Muslim groups, but there was never the check to see that the said groups were actually advocating and promoting acceptable standards. Why give a group funding if they use it to print posters stating democracy should be destroyed and gays castrated?

On a purely hypothetical level. I would expect a doctor to alert police if their patient was dangerous, whether that danger was posed (or threatened) to children as a paedophile or your average bus passenger as an extremist. Oh, before someone bleats “Hippocratic Oath”, I can assure you that criminality is exempt. Doctors are not Priests.

Regards

"HOSPITALS will be told to identify patients and staff who could be engaged in extremism, under a new government counter-terrorism blueprint to be unveiled tomorrow."

Health Staff Recruited

Whilst I agree we should probably wait and see was is in store for us, this appears to be less about group funding but about individuals "intentions"

Now, for arguments sake, if I went into a Doctor's surgery and I said something along the lines of "I hate this government, something should be done about it..." what are my intentions? Who could possibly know what my future intentions or if I'm susceptable to radicalisation.

Now being a radical is not the same as physically going out and blowing somewhere up, I could hate everyone, that is my right to do so, it doesn't mean that I'm going to kill someone or plan to or ever plan to.

I suspect this is unworkable simply because of patient confidentiality.

If you think there is always a small number of physically abused kids, whose GP's/doctors in hospitals and also teachers) miss noticing and/or don't report their suspicions. Yet if these people miss reporting bruises etc on a little one do you really think they would be that effective in spying on patients, I don't?

IMHO.. having spent time supporting those who have mental health issues trust is a major factor being destroyed. most of these people are paranoid/worried and not able to see the wood for the trees as it is.. while it is easy to say "if your not a terrorist this won't affect you" it is not easy to get that across to those who already have deep trust issues..

The only outcome I would foresee would be a reduction in the number of people seeking help and an increase in the number of people already within the system backing away.. which in turn will create whole new set of risks.. so I find the whole idea deeply worrisome.

If you have followed the integration of the police state in the UK and the USA this will just be another piece of the jigsaw but a very worrying one none the less. Civil liberty and freedom of speech are under attack and it is coming from the government not terrorism.
Who could of imagined that Doctors would be asked to spy and report on their patients in what is supposed to be a free country. Never mind that GP's are not trained as psychologists or that this completely destroys patient/doctor trust and trashes the hippocratic oath that doctors take but it is proof positive that this Government will trample all over your rights while ridiculously claiming that they are doing to protect your rights, huh?
The argument that you have nothing to fear if you are not a terrorist is completely asinine when the definition of terrorism is so easily moulded to fit the circumstance and notice how the word terrorism is slowly being omitted and replaced by the word radicalism - a much better catch all you see. What will it be next, dissenters?
I also have to laugh at the idea that these are different times and we must now give up all our rights so that Government can protect us from those nasty terrorists.

"First they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me."

This cowardly, "they wont come for me if I agree" approach needs to be called out for what it is.
If you are not against tyranny then you are a part of tyranny.
You are only being asked to stand up for what is morally right, to stand up for the ideal that each man is innocent until proven guilty. How you can you stand by while that twisted and contorted into some grotesque doublespeak?

You have to be either brain washed or intellectually vacuous to put that forward these are different times as a reason as to why this is a good idea. There have always been terrorists and evil doers - we should know, many of them have worked for us over the years and still do - fact.
However I do not remember people being reported and arrested for off the cuff jokes back then (yes you are now likely to be reported for any remark made on a social networking site than can be perceived as radical - it has already happened)
In every case of new or proposed anti terror legislation we see a common thread of our rights being taken away and/or more power to the police and state. How does that protect our freedom?

Each time we get the same inane drivel on boards such as these about the latest big brother legislation being ok because it is only a little sacrifice and it is for the greater good and each time that whimpering argument comes bereft of intellectual argument or debate as to how it will benefit society or prevent terrorism.

What is next, hairdressers asked to report on local gossip to MI5?
:@

If you seriously think this about preventing terrorism you need your head examined.
You honestly think a terrorist pops into his GP and says, "I've had a bad cough recently and I need to get better before I hatch my dastardly plan to blow up parliament"?
Get a grip.

For some people, doctors are the only people who they can trust due to the Hippocratic oath. Now it seems that David Cameron is taking even this away from people. I hope the evil piece of # finds his way into the company of his enemies, who make his death excruciatingly slow and painful.

The fact is the government are the real terrorists. They are the ones taking all of our rights away because they are so paranoid of us overthrowing them, they know full well they are in the wrong yet they refuse to change and attack us pre-emptively.