The issue of the omniscient God

reply to post by TheOneElectric


This is a really good thread!! The more I am on here the more I find there are some really intelligent people here. There is so much individual thought processing going into the answers here. It is really encouraging to see people are analyzing what they read and hear, not parrot quoting.
This is so good..

reply to post by Sailor Sam

Like all other posters on this and similar subjects, you equate belief with truth. You believe in a god, but you have no proof that one exists.

On the contrary, you have no proof that a god does NOT exist.

reply to post by Myollinir


I cannot believe how much you sound like my daughter talking to me.!! She is on the same path as you are and I find it astounding that you say things that are identical to her thinking!
Don't really know what to think of that yet.

My thinking is and only mine.. and have said this before...maybe all of our chaotic free will...somewhere down the line has a directive or order that we can't possibly understand yet and a possible meaning for all of our suffering and misery .

Here is just a part of what Edgar Cayce had to say. Please visit the link and read for yourself another way to view humanity and free will! Thanks!! ;-)

The idea that returning to God means a loss of individuality is paradoxical, since God is aware of everything that happens and must therefore be aware of the consciousness of each individual. The return of the soul is the return of the image to that which imagined it. The consciousness of the individual - its soul record - could not be destroyed without destroying a part of God. When a soul returns to God it becomes aware of itself not only as a part of God, but as a part of every other soul, and everything. What is lost is the ego - the desire to do other than the desire of God. When the soul returns to God, the ego is voluntarily relinquished. This is the symbology behind the crucifixion of Christ. The plan for the soul included experiencing of all creation, but it did not necessarily mean participating in all forms and substance. Nor did it mean that souls can interfere with the creation. Nor did it mean that souls are to spin their own little worlds, twisting and bending laws to make images of their dreams. But these things could happen. The soul was the greatest thing that God made because it has free will. Once free will was given, God did nothing to curb it. However it acted, it had to act within God's reality. By whatever route, the soul will return to God. The fact that the human body is a speck of dust on a small planet in a universe of galaxies can lead to the illusion that humans are a small creation. But the soul is the unlimited activity of the mind and the grandeur of imagination. At first there was little difference between the consciousness of the new individual (i.e., soul) and its consciousness of identity with God (i.e., spirit). Souls merely watched the flow of the Mind, somewhat as people daydreaming, marveling at its power and versatility. Then souls began to act itself, imitating and paralleling what Mind was doing. Gradually souls acquired experience, becoming a complementary rather than an imitative force. It helped to extend, modify, and regulate creation. Certain souls became aggressive with their own power and began to experiment with it. They mingled with the dust of the stars and the winds of the spheres - feeling them - and becoming part of them. One result of this was an unbalance between the positive and negative forces. To feel things demanded the negative force. To express through things (and directing and managing them) required the positive force. Another result of souls becoming aggressive with their own power was the gradual weakening of the link between the two states of consciousness (i.e., spirit and the soul). Some souls became more concerned with and aware of their own creations rather than God's. This resulted in the fall of certain souls to an even lower consciousness. The Bible allegorically refers to this event as the Fall in the Garden of Eden and the revolt of the angels in the Book of Revelation. This event is also the basis for the cosmology of Christian Gnosticism and Jewish mysticism. To enter into another level of creation and become part of it, the soul had to assume a new, or third consciousness - a physical form. Assuming a physical form is a way of experiencing that level of creation by means of a conscious mind (i.e., the third consciousness). Through the conscious mind, an individual can experience physical consciousness: the physical body, the five senses, the glandular and nervous systems. This transformation of consciousness does not apply everywhere at this level of creation. In other worlds and solar systems, the transformation may differ. One can only imagine the number of these other worlds and the aspects of divine mind which they represent. When a soul enters into another level of creation and its consciousness, it separated itself temporarily from the consciousness of its own soul, and became even further removed from the consciousness of its spirit. Thus, instead of helping to direct the flow of creation and contributing to it, the soul found itself in the stream and drifting along with it. The farther the soul traveled from the shore, the more it succumbed to the pull of the current and the more difficult was the task of getting back to land.

The article goes on to talk about the Planets and Solar System ..... I love this!!!!!!!!

Planets and solar systems became a temptation to souls. Each solar system had its own course and its own plan. Souls moved toward them through the activity of a constant stream of mind. When a soul leaped into the stream (by immersing itself in the system through which the stream was flowing) it had the force of the current to contend with, and its free will was hampered. It was very easy, under these circumstances, to drift with the current. Each solar system also represents an opportunity for development, advancement, and growth toward the ideal of complete companionship with God - the position of co-creator in the vast system of universal mind. Our solar system also attracted souls. Since each solar system is a single expression of the divine, with its planets as integral parts, the Earth came into the path of souls. Each solar system in the universe is like an atom in a universe of worlds. Atoms have quantum levels for electrons to travel around. The sun has "quantum levels" for planets to travel around. The planets of our solar system are physical representations of heavenly dimensions. These levels as a whole are the consciousness of our solar system. There are nine planetary/heavenly dimensions to the consciousness of our solar system. The planet Earth represents the third dimension. Earth represents three-dimensional life in our solar system. The Earth is an expression of Divine Mind with its own laws, its own plan, and its own evolution. Souls, longing to feel the beauty of the seas, the winds, the forest, and the flowers, mixed with them and expressed themselves through them. They also mingled with the animals, and made thought forms in imitation of them. Souls played at creating and imitated God. But this interfered with the evolutionary plan of the Earth. Thus, the stream of mind that was carrying out this plan for the Earth gradually drew souls into its current. Souls had to evolve into the bodies they had themselves created. This entanglement of souls into physical form was a probability from the beginning. But God did not know when it would happen until the souls, of their own free will, had caused it to happen.

It took me a minute to grasp his take on the Soul...but wow...once you understand it its pretty cool stuff!


Peace and Love!!! xoxox


www.near-death.com...

The god of the bible is clearly not an all knowing being.

Genesis 3:9
"And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where [art] thou?"

Link

Taken from the King James Bible.

IRM

reply to post by InfaRedMan


Maybe its like me asking my kids "what are you doing"? I see what they are doing, yet....I am not at all liking what they are doing..? Asking more or less for them to explains themselves.

Calling my child...I ask where are you? As if...you should have already been here.

Again, I think what ole Edgar says has some truth to it.

reply to post by TheOneElectric


You can rule Random out, there is no such thing as random in this universe, there is only perception of random (pseudo random).

If nothing is random, then what happens when the Universe is restarted? Is the same result produced, or something different? Since we know there is no random, we can say the same result will be produced. If the same result is produced, what does that mean? Creator? Will? Conscious?

Originally posted by InfaRedMan
The god of the bible is clearly not an all knowing being.

Genesis 3:9
"And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where [art] thou?"

Link

Taken from the King James Bible.

IRM

If Christians do this sort of thing, we're accused of quote mining.

This view not only poses a false dilemma by ignoring passages that indicate the opposite, it also ignores the use of figures of speech; e.g. "So where ya been, huh? Didn't go near that tree, did ya?"

Cut and paste, parrot and twist... that's the lazy person's "debate". Let's see someone, just for once, show personal familiarity with the text, with rules of grammar and textual criticism, with an understanding of genre and poetry and ANE views on historical record etc. These "drive-by shootings" are getting old.

reply to post by MamaJ


I would also like to say to you that my daughter is a big fan of Edgar Cayce. She speaks of things he had written too. The truth is..I have never read any of his books! I think ...maybe I will ck out his work.

reply to post by ellieN


If you have not read any material, by all means...do it! His words of confirmation are not only comforting but it sheds a WHOLE OTHER LIGHT on our existence in a way that after we grasp the other way of thinking...we "get it". What he says is really no different than the Bible only it is more in depth and helps us understand and remember who we truly are, how we got here, and where we are headed.

Originally posted by TheOneElectric

Under our rules and understanding, if a Omniscient, Omnipotent god being existed then the idea of free will and choice are more or less fictional ideas; at least in our level of understanding. It takes merely simple logic to question the validity of free will under Omniscience. If such an all knowing being existed, outside of space and time, all of our actions would be known to it. All of choices, before we were even here to make them, are known by our assumed God. This being knows all, it knows when all will be born and when all will die. It knows what a person will choose to have for breakfast and it knows what a person will have for dinner. It knows what route one will take to work, and what route one will take to return home. It knows all. It knows what exact words, down to the awkward verbal punctuation, one will say to their co-workers on that given day. All of our choices were known, thought of, and contemplated long before we existed under this assumed God.

How is free will or choice to be considered valid under an Omniscient God? How can our decisions make a difference to our well being if they were already crafted, like a computer program in play. Are our individual experiences and choices meaningless on a personal level? Are our choices the choices of God, therefore giving more credence to the idea of all of reality just being God experiencing?

It's quite simple really. There's a huge difference in knowing what is happening and controlling what is happening. Just because God knows what decision you are going to make doesn't mean he made it for you. Perhaps it might help to understand if you think of it in terms of you watching a movie that you've seen a dozen times before. You know everything the actors are going to do before they do it. You know the beginning, middle and end. You know everything about it. But did you control the actions of the actors? No, you did not. They had their own free will and they exercised it accordingly.

Originally posted by InfaRedMan
The god of the bible is clearly not an all knowing being.

Genesis 3:9
"And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where [art] thou?"

Link

Taken from the King James Bible.

IRM

For someone who contributes so much to ATS this "effort" really falls short of the normal level of expected quality. If you read the context it's obvious that God was asking Adam to explain why he was hiding. He of course knew the answer, but He was holding Adam accountable for his actions.

I think the meaning of omniscience is slightly misinterpreted.

Theists often assume God to have very human traits, such as a human mind. In this sense, omniscient or "all knowing" must mean he knows all things, including the outcomes and future events.

Theists also believe God is omnipresent and omnipotent, he is everywhere and is all-powerful. As well, they believe him to be a loving creator with compassion for all things.

Omnipotent has often been interpreted as an ability to do anything. If this is so, why then does God allow evil and suffering to occur? Surely he could manipulate events to ensure that no harm comes to his creations? In my opinion the answer is he wants to allow these things to occur, to understand what he has created.

In my mind, these three traits (omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent) can only add up to one thing; the entire universe. In this sense, God is everything; "I am the alpha and the omega".

Assuming the above to be true, then we are all a part of God. Sentient beings allow God to experience his creation subjectively. We accumulate knowlege, experience life's pleasures, and each see a portion of the universe. Each individual's perspective is added to a big picture, overlapping and meshing together to help God see all aspects of himself, from beauty to suffering, knowlege to superstition, creation and destruction.

No individual being can truly see the future; it has not yet occurred, and its events are a result of countless interactions, making it difficult to predict with precision and accuracy. As the future is created, it moves into the present, becoming part of the set of all things in existence. As the present moves into the past, it ceases to exist in physical form but remains in the memory of sentient beings in the present, and much of it is carried into the future in the form of knowlege.

Since God is essentially the sum of all things, and each individual cannot truly experience the future before it enters the present, God cannot know future outcomes. One might think of God as a computer which is calculating the future using countless functions which are the interactions between entities. When a result of the calculation is obtained, the result is the present.

I hope this makes sense. My ideas can get a bit scattered sometimes as my brain multitasks, following numerous paths of logic simultaneously. Putting it together into a logical argument can be difficult.

Originally posted by SaberTruth

Originally posted by InfaRedMan
The god of the bible is clearly not an all knowing being.

Genesis 3:9
"And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where [art] thou?"

Link

Taken from the King James Bible.

IRM

If Christians do this sort of thing, we're accused of quote mining.

Irrelevant hand waving...

Originally posted by SaberTruth
This view not only poses a false dilemma by ignoring passages that indicate the opposite,

Sure.. by all means post more bible contradictions... or clumsy authorship. Are you sure that the passages you say indicate the opposite aren't figurative language? If so how can you tell? Is there a hand book or something I can buy?

Originally posted by SaberTruth
it also ignores the use of figures of speech; e.g. "So where ya been, huh? Didn't go near that tree, did ya?"

The christian god uses 'figures of speech'? Slang terms even? Loose language from a perfect being? How odd! I don't remember any such disclaimers or footnotes in the bible claiming either figurative, literal... or slang for that matter. What I find interesting is how the literal turns into the figurative and back again depending on the individual agendas of christians.

IRM

Originally posted by SavedOne
For someone who contributes so much to ATS this "effort" really falls short of the normal level of expected quality.

Very passive aggressive SavedOne! Vilification for my silver contribution level no doubt.
Jealousy is a sin is it not...

tisk tisk tisk *waves finger*

IRM

reply to post by InfaRedMan


One should not rely on the word of God as written by man to prove or disprove God's existence, but instead use logical reasoning to determine one's own opinion.

Pointing out flaws in the holy book's language doesn't prove anything. The translation could be flawed, human mind's could have misinterpreted gods message, or God might not exist.

This idea may p*** off some christians: The bible is not perfect. It was written by the hands of man, and thus contains many flaws. To benefit from its wisdom, one must maintain a critical mind when reading from it. Too often I see fundamentalists shouting that "God's word is not for personal interpretation", and to them I say bullocks! God's word (as written in the bible) IS a personal interpretation!

reply to post by InfaRedMan


You seem more like a troll to me than someone who is coming here to partake in a metaphysical discussion. You did indeed take the verse way out of context and that is fine because all men twist what words are written. You can say what you want and argue that it can mean anything you want it to mean, but it is written clearly and you are clearly twisting what is meant to be derived from the verse. All of the people here agree and all may or may not be complete theological diehards.

Regards

Originally posted by InfaRedMan
Irrelevant hand waving...

Your labeling it irrelevant doesn't make it so. But I understand how disconcerting it can be to come face to face with one's own double standards.

Sure.. by all means post more bible contradictions... or clumsy authorship. Are you sure that the passages you say indicate the opposite aren't figurative language? If so how can you tell? Is there a hand book or something I can buy?

So I can yell "contradiction" whenever someone says light is both a particle and a wave then. Again, this sort of sophomoric rhetoric is not debate or rebuttal but false dilemma. As for handbooks, you might start with some on basic grammar and syntax, then move on to reading comprehension and literature/genre.

But all of that is a red herring to deflect from the point, which is that you only quoted a single verse without qualification as some sort of proof for your claim. Trying to introduce a separate debate or syllogism is not going to work.

The christian god uses 'figures of speech'? Slang terms even? Loose language from a perfect being? How odd! I don't remember any such disclaimers or footnotes in the bible claiming either figurative, literal... or slang for that matter. What I find interesting is how the literal turns into the figurative and back again depending on the individual agendas of christians.

::eyes rolling:: See previous responses. And if you ever really want to have a civilized and mature conversation about any of this, you'll have to demonstrate at least the ability to grasp points other people make and respond to them logically. Until then, don't expect me to keep playing.

I view it not as the Creator knows all possible outcomes but rather is all possible outcomes. The Creation and Creator are the same, the Singularity become the Masses. An experience of itself in both energy and matter. The dream of a dream within a dream. Is it individually perfect? No. But universally perfect; allowing for every possible event in every possible circumstance, even the ugliest and most painful ones which I've shared in personally. That's how it makes sense to me.

As to free will, personal experience dictates that there either is none or that we are predisposed to the likelihood of certain choices per our personality. But I believe there is some choice, even if that is only the illusion of choice meaning every possible outcome is already plotted. Though as my signature states, the map is not the territory so nothing is real until we live it. Welcome to Life.

Namaste,
Traveler in the Dark

Did anyone read what I quoted from Edgar Cayce? I only ask because I REALLY want you to read it and share your thoughts. Pretty Please