What's up with nice guys and jerks?!

I don't get why nice people have to act nice to other people all the time just to please other people. I believe there is nothing wrong with being nice, and, I used to be a "nice guy myself". I would always ask people questions about how they're doing and ask people questions about themselves. But I think some people take it a bit too far. They take it so far so that they don't try to have interesting conversations or they take it too far and they don't reveal any part of their personality. I took the nice guy approach with this other girl that I once sort of had a falling-out with... and, I didn't really have success until I started to drop the nice-guy approach and I started being who I really was. I was originally afraid to be who I really was because I didn't know if other people would like me or not, but, I think people like me more for who I am, rather than just being "nice".

However, there seems to be a false paradigm where people tell you that you either have to be nice or that you have to be a jerk (www.peopleskillsdecoded.com...). What about being neither? What about being who you are and being all that you can be? Why don't more people advocate that approach? What's wrong with nice guys and jerks always thinking that they have to be a certain way around women or a certain way around people to get what they want?

reply to post by Frankidealist35


To answer your last question, because they haven't matured enough to know better.

Here's the thing IMO, just because someone is being a jerk; don't assume they're acting. Same thing with nice people. Sometimes people really are just being themselves. The one's that aren't give meaning to the phrase "playing the game" because that's all relationships are to them. It's a game they play because their either don't know how to be real or they're still afraid of doing so.

In either case, don't fault them for it. Hopefully they'll get there one day.

I know some of the nicest guys that can be the biggest jerks when they have to be. I say just be yourself and if people don't like it then to bad they don't have to hang out with you. I can be the nicest girl you could ever meet, just don't tick me off, I can turn around and be the biggest B@#$% you ever met at the same time.

My wife takes care of the diplomatic end of my life, I'm the grumpy old bassturd that doesn't even want the kids to visit, but she puts up with me and even speaks good of me.
Everyone loves my wife as she has one of those personalities that grabs you by the ear and makes you like her.
So people naturally assume if she is happy with me I can't be all that bad.
If that makes sense.
I never am diplomatic and will at the drop of a hat speak my mind.
But that is the sparkly side of my personality.

Its human nature to be like this "Nice Guys" arent always nice and i've met jerks (prisoners, murderers) that can be the exact definition of the word "Gentlemen".

I'm a nice guy. I'll be that really sweet, charming, nice guy, but I can be a real f-ing a$$hole if I have to be.

In reality who isn't a little of both?

I read a ridiculous article once titled something like "Why nice guys are misogynists". I did agree with it on one point though which was that some guys just act nice cause they think it's a good strategy. Meaning a good strategy to get a girl into bed. I've met a lot of self professed 'nice guys' who whine about how they can't get a date because girls want 'bad boys'. Or on the other hand girls who think all guys want barbie dolls.

In reality no one wants a self obsessed whiner. But I do think we as humans have to accept more often that the people we are trying to date are human too. Someone you can accept warts and all is more likely to accept you for your own warts.

I don't know kinda forgot where I was going with this.Anyways my two cents

Originally posted by Frankidealist35
However, there seems to be a false paradigm where people tell you that you either have to be nice or that you have to be a jerk (www.peopleskillsdecoded.com...).

The nice guy v bad boy/jerk character is definitely a false dichotomy. Don't get me wrong, I got burnt by being the ''nice guy'' when I was a teenager.

The fact of the matter is that women go for neither of these types, per se; they go for a man who has the most attractive traits and characteristics, but it just so happens that ''bad boys'' usually possess 75%+ of the traits that a woman is looking for - hence why the ''women like jerks'' comment is not entirely untrue.

The most obvious non-physical traits that a woman generally looks for in a man is his power and social dominance. This is why confidence and savoir faire are two of the biggest attractions for a woman, but, more importantly, this is why women like ''jerks''.

Displays of social dominance are generally considered to be uncivil and, for want of a better term, ''jerkish'', yet it's these extroverted displays of confidence, bordering on arrogance, that normally hook a woman in.

Originally posted by Frankidealist35
What about being neither? What about being who you are and being all that you can be? Why don't more people advocate that approach?

Sorry mate, but an approach along the lines of ''just be yourself'' is probably the worst advice that anyone could take when trying to find a partner.

If someone needs to be told that they should ''be who you are'', then they are always going to be largely unsuccessful with prospective partners.

The fact of the matter is that you ( plural, not singular ) really need to change your approach if ''being yourself'' yields little results.

Millions of years of evolution have defined what the average heterosexual male and female seek - consciously or subconsciously - in their mate.

Being yourself saves alot of pain and suffering in the long run.
Pretending to be something other than yourself can only lead
to trouble.
Be yourself,be happy with yourself,and happiness will find you
in the end.
Accepting who you are will in the end bring you great joy in life.
If others don't like it,it was never meant to be.

reply to post by g146541

Your wife and mine sound like twins and as well as you and me.

Geez that made me laugh and I had to call her over so she could as well.



Should start a grumpy old basturds club who have lovely personality wives.But then we wont attend because we are too grumpy to be around other grumpy men

I didn't really have success until I started to drop the nice-guy approach and I started being who I really was.

The bottom line is be YOURSELF. The lack of success wasn't due to whether you were acting like a jerk or a nice guy...it was because others knew (even if just subconsciously) that they weren't seeing the REAL you...just an act.

There is no "way to act" around others, except to be yourself....because, unless you're going to try and keep up "the act" forever, sooner or later, folks will see through it. Let people like or dislike you for who you are, and things will fall into place much better.

I generally consider myself to just be a nice guy. It's who I am, not how I try to be. (unless we're playing card or boardgames, etc., when I've been told I'm downright ruthless...which I am). I guess that's my evil outlet, hehe...

Of course, even then, I'll often "throw" a game here and there, just to be sure everyone wins once in a while. I still have yet to legitimately lose at Balderdash for example (but I've thrown it a couple of times, because I like the game, and want them to want to play it again). I just like hearing the BS answers everyone comes up with, regardless of who wins.

Originally posted by iSeeKEnlightenment8o5
I'm a nice guy. I'll be that really sweet, charming, nice guy, but I can be a real f-ing a$$hole if I have to be.

This all the way for me too.

I've always been myself, never got the girl a majority of the time but the two times so far that it worked, it's been amazing, second time still ongoing in fact after 5 weeks.

The phrase "be yourself" is done to death but it honestly is the god's honest truth.

reply to post by Frankidealist35


My girlfriend made a comment to me on this subject the other day that really took me by surprise. She said she was actually afraid to date me because she wasn't sure how to deal with a guy treating her kindly in a relationship. Not to say that's how most of them feel, but it gave me a perspective that I hadn't really considered before.

That said, there's a difference between a nice guy and a guy who's afraid of ever doing or saying something wrong. What you described would be the latter to me.

In the words of Ethan Hawke in Training day, "It's all about smiles and cries, controlling your smiles and cries." Some people will always put on a mask so that people do not say bad things about them not knowing how much damage they are doing to their selves. Others just have no self respect to control who they hurt. Both are wrong and do more damage to the person doing it then the ones they are trying to impress. It's a vicious circle but they won't know it until they fall into that pit they dig for themselves, and no one is around to pull them up, then they will have to come into contact with the thing they should have been concentration on in the first place, their true self. Great now I have given myself a headache stupid stinking philosophy.

reply to post by warbird03


Yep, I had some past relationships' gals say that to me (just before going back to a boyfriend who treated them like crap). Kind of the old saying, you can lead a horse to water, but up to them to drink. In this case, they didn't learn, and must have been attracted to such treatment. To each their own....

Luckily, my wife is cool with me being a nice guy (it's kind of my thing with her girlfriends too, much to the chagrin of my buddies).

The phrase "be yourself" is done to death but it honestly is the god's honest truth.

There's a reason old sayings are old, and still around....and it's because often, they embody universal truths....that are independent of the times or social customs.

Honestly, I think most of the trouble is all the psychobabble that showed up in our society in the wake of WWI.

No one wants to see a man cry. Just ask Ed Muskie.

No one wants to hear a man complain about suffering from personal injustice, or physical pain. So don't waste your breath. The people who tell you that these things are important are simply trying to control your responses, and get you to emasculate yourself so they don't have to.

You don't telegraph your feelings or plans, except to your wife---and then only what matters to her.

Otherwise, you are simply showing your cards.

No one will ever love you for being weak; anyone who says they do is merely trying to make you dependent upon their approval. Women (probably men as well, but I'm only interested in the female) want a lover they can respect. Being strong and helpful will get you that respect. There's no reason to act like a caveman. But people can withhold love; while they will respect you whether they like you or not.

Jerks still breed. Whiners often don't. What else do you need to know?

reply to post by Gazrok


I should just make a clarification here. I wasn't necessarily doing the nice guy approach as an act. I was more afraid about how other people would react to me if I was who I really am. I wasn't really that confident. It's just that I'm very cynical by nature (well, I imagine one would have to be if they visited a site like ATS anyhow), I have an ironic/sarcastic style of humor, I have my wits... and I can make for pretty good discussion.

But, I was just afraid about how other people would take my cynical nature before and whether they would appreciate it, or if they would reject me. It seems that more people respect me for who I am and they are able to appreciate my cynical, intelligent, and tolerant (yes, I am both cynical and tolerant) side than my "nice" side. Back when I was being nice I was just saying things and not trying to offend other people. I think people like me better when I actually speak my mind about things, and, when I am critical, or when I try to make interesting discussion.

I think I was just afraid of coming off as a "know it all" or a downer. But it seems like now I'm just saying the things that most people are thinking but they're too afraid to say because they don't want to offend other people. But people seem to be glad when I address these issues to them. Not many other people seem to want to point them out.

reply to post by dr_strangecraft


I can see where you're coming from but I disagree. I believe that empathy is one of the greatest strengths that all humans have. It can lift us beyond where we currently are today in terms of society if more people cared about one another. Humans aren't just things that other people can use to their own ends. They are actual people. They are living, thinking people much like yourself. When someone gets close to someone else they develop feelings for those people, and, until you actually marry someone, you'll need to tell other people how you feel about things. There is nothing wrong with telling other people how you feel about them.

Originally posted by Frankidealist35

I believe that empathy is one of the greatest strengths that all humans have. It can lift us beyond where we currently are today in terms of society if more people cared about one another. Humans aren't just things that other people can use to their own ends. They are actual people. They are living, thinking people much like yourself. When someone gets close to someone else they develop feelings for those people, and, until you actually marry someone, you'll need to tell other people how you feel about things. There is nothing wrong with telling other people how you feel about them.

Oh, you still have to tell 'em, even after your married. Communication is a critical skill, and a lot of people suffer because they cannot make themselves understood. I am all for communication. As a matter of fact, I think a person will understand a lot more about sexual intimacy if they think of it as a form of communication.

What I said was simply that there are some things that people don't want to hear.

Look, in some ways, each one of us is totally alone in the universe. We find special people we can share parts of our lives with. But the sharing is never total--it cannot be, unless or until we all develop psychic powers. And there are some things that are best left uncommunicated.

People joke about a woman asking "does this dress make my butt look big?" but it is a real question you will inevitably face as a man dating or married to a woman. Likewise, another topic you automatically lose is whether another woman (not your partner) ever turns you on. In moments like that, honesty can be both cruel and masochistic--it hurts both of you.

There are still gender roles (because they are larger than the societal waves of the last 100 years), and hetero males cannot get any respect for being weak or vulnerable. Such men may be lauded with praise, but watch the way they are treated. You will be congratulated for your vulnerability, but then shunted to the side as unworthy of the woman you were trying to impress.

Like we used to say in college. Once you're a guy friend, you can never be a boyfriend.

I truly believe that nearly all straight women (the subset I am interested in), want a man to take charge, lead, and overcome obstacles with regard to making the relationship work. It gives them a rush, a heady feeling, that tells them they are worth any price, and that the man will exert himself to please her.

Most guys totally screw this up today without even realizing it. A woman wants you to plan the date; not because she is turned on by your controlling personality, but because it says that she matters enough for you to think the evening through before hand. Most young men of today will, if they even ask a woman on a genuine date, will ask her where she wants to eat.

She doesn't want to eat where she wants; she wants you to spend the time, to investigate her, study her, ask her friends, and then surprise her with something she's never experienced before. By paying that much attention, you are telling her she is the princess, that she matters that much. Most young men in this generation are not capable of sustaining the effort for anything more involved than xbox. And so they never successfully communicate to a woman that she "could" matter that much.

It's a good thing I'm married; because frankly, there are so many women out there who have never been the focus of an adult male's attention, that I'd be a sexual Babe Ruth instead of doing the important things with my life like I do now. Today's men are not disciplined enough to plan a lavish dinner out with an evening at the symphony and coffee afterwards; or even the stuff I did when I was a starving student, like taking her to feed the ducks in the park, or arranging a private tour of her favorite museum after hours. (Stuff that cost me zero dollars, by the way, and always resulted in a home run....)

I am not saying that you should ever lie or misrepresent who you are to someone else, least of all your lover. But sometimes, you need to edit the content a bit. IF she is miserable, she hardly wants to hear that you just got a promotion, and found a hundred dollar bill in the parking lot on the way home. Likewise, if she depends on you to be solid and comforting when times are hard, watching you cry when you get laid off is not going to bolster her view of you as the problem-solver, one of the qualities she loved you for in the first place.

I'm just saying you need to be prepared for the fact that there IS a double standard. People may say something else, but society, both men and women, will ultimately judge you by the old male standard of whether you were in control of yourself and your world when the worst happened. Everyone admires it in a man---they cannot help it. They may SAY that they admire a man who is "emotionally open," but believe it at your peril.

How many women want a man who appears weak in a crisis? How many men want a friend who may crack under pressure? They may accept it as one of your failings, but it won't help your standing in the world one bit. Just saying.

reply to post by dr_strangecraft


I will agree to disagree. It isn't a male standard for someone to be in control of themselves or not. That's just how people think. If you are able to handle yourself through a crisis other people will respect you more. But when you're in that crisis and you need a little help it's not considered wrong to share your feelings and to ask for help. Sometimes (it depends on who you are trying to talk to) it isn't that bad to go to other people and let your feelings out. Then, you might find that other people have ran into the same issues, and find out hat you're not alone, and you'd slowly begin to feel better about yourself.