Gods Will conquers free will

reply to post by newcovenant


You wrote in an earlier post:

["People always need something I have to find and give to them. Wait for people to ask for things. Sometimes I just get things and leave them where people can find them. Ideas and hope mostly. Somebody has to do it."]

I apologize, if I misinterpretated it. And in any case later comments from you have been more in a direction parallel to my own.

Ofocurse you don't have to be 'moral' to help people. At least not as 'moral' mostly is used (as an expression of some intrinsic, specific quality). You can help people from a position of common sense or even because you just feel a little saintlike about it. But disregarding motives (unconditional) help is help.

Quote: ["Some people are literally spirit wise, black holes of negativity trying to suck good people into them and make them fold or be discouraged. This may be your case."]

I am by character naturally grumpy. Though I believe not to the black hole degree.

reply to post by bogomil

Some people are literally spirit wise, black holes of negativity trying to suck good people into them and make them fold or be discouraged. This may be your case.

I am by character naturally grumpy. Though I believe not to the black hole degree.

I admire this. Most people have neither the insight nor integrity to admit this about themselves although it is not necessarily a negative quality, in moderation. It is a choice like any other. Self protecting.
People singing a happy tune all day get rather unnerving and so it is good to have a "damper" type personality about to keep things on a solid earthly plane, in many instances.

I don't think you are grumpy, and certainly not a vortex of negativity as I tried to suggest - but maybe a bit critical and again no harm there either. It is wise to question everything. Besides...you are growing on me.

reply to post by newcovenant


Exactly my thoughts
Analytical skills and a little twist of grumpyness can save the day...

I thank you both to help finding a common ground here.
For me it is important that we are all inclusive, and every point of view shared from the heart is
a great help.

I was talking about God, that is of course what I choose to call it.
I do not wish to drag any concepts or belief-systems over anyones head.

However I feel and experience that there certainly is a living reality connecting us all, and I want to explore the nature of this with you my friends.
An amazing journey.

reply to post by laffoe


Concerning your latest post:

In many of the seemingly vicious confrontations I regularly get into, it turns out, that the initial problem has been sloppy semantics from the various theist/deist positions.

With internal theist/religionist disagreements, with theist/deist disagreement with the methodology of objectivity, and with the sometimes resulting open violence, I believe that my insistence on meticulous semantics is justified.

It's not a question of cornering people into pre-arranged positions with only my optional answers as THE answers, it's rather a question of (example): "THE 'god' being 'the ALL', the 'unknown', Zeus or Jahveh" and how the heck did 'original sin' suddenly become a part of this vague classification?

It can take people forum-pages to discover, that they are not even talking about the same thing.

Originally posted by laffoe

Originally posted by InfaRedMan
reply to post by weareone63

 

Can you provide unimpeachable proof to back your statements? Remember, faith does not equate to proof. All you've really given us here is the old celestial teapot argument.

The proof is us all, in everything you see
You are the proof

You know about scientific facts, that the only thing that is sure, is that what was proved yesterday is a lie tomorrow.
You´ll see the proof of God (which is a permanent truth) when you decide to look for it.
And by that I mean really decide... taking it into your heart - exploring.
Try
If you do that for real, wholeheartedly, then come back and share what you´ve found
May love be your guide

In other words it took you multiple lines of utter gobbledegook just to admit there is no unimpeachable evidence. Faith is not proof... a simple concept which seems to be far beyond your capacity to understand.

Let me say it for you again..

FAITH IS NOT PROOF!

Next.....

IRM

reply to post by bogomil


Agreed
For understanding to occur, it is needed to reach common ground
To reach beyond the words, to be willing to empty our cup so that ther are
room to understand.
So if words make distance, other words or other ways are needed
I am talking of God, that is the word I choose, any other word could be just as good.
That is my personal experience, my own personal words.
What I observe however, is, that this presence (all loving, all inclusive) is real.
It is not a concept, or just a description of psychological mechanism, using metafors.
It is real, living and radienting love and light.
My experience is, that we need this presence.
Need to invite it into our life.
Bow for something greater.
Not like we get to be zombies, only that our heart and mind opens in a new way.
We start to see inclusive too.
Accepting and appreciating that we are all from the same source.
That we are here together
In this together
And by our hearts joining as one big heart, giving in to what is greater than us all, we can proceed
Make an end to all this suffering and pain.
This is what I experience and believe.

reply to post by InfaRedMan

FAITH IS NOT PROOF!

I know. And I believe in UFO's too! Go figure. We all have our little idiosyncrasies. What's yours?

reply to post by bogomil


And feel free to U2U me about that tri-gunism, my friend (If I may consider you my friend?)
My percception of the Source are alos like three in One and One in three.
Am intrigued if there are any similarities.

Originally posted by InfaRedMan

Originally posted by laffoe

Originally posted by InfaRedMan
reply to post by weareone63

 

Can you provide unimpeachable proof to back your statements? Remember, faith does not equate to proof. All you've really given us here is the old celestial teapot argument.

The proof is us all, in everything you see
You are the proof

You know about scientific facts, that the only thing that is sure, is that what was proved yesterday is a lie tomorrow.
You´ll see the proof of God (which is a permanent truth) when you decide to look for it.
And by that I mean really decide... taking it into your heart - exploring.
Try
If you do that for real, wholeheartedly, then come back and share what you´ve found
May love be your guide

In other words it took you multiple lines of utter gobbledegook just to admit there is no unimpeachable evidence. Faith is not proof... a simple concept which seems to be far beyond your capacity to understand.

Let me say it for you again..

FAITH IS NOT PROOF!

Next.....

IRM

True faith is faith and proof is proof.
Faith, however, is a skill that can be learned.
I´ve asked you before and I´ll ask you again: look within your heart, what does it tell you
Look into the mirror, what do you see?

May also ponder upon proof...
What is it that proof will give you, how will proof improve your life?

Just some suggestions
You choose your own path.
Know that you are loved, and when one day you realize that God/Source indeed are real, beyond any proof,
it´ll be all ok.
You are still loved

Standing
Watching
At the Edge of Time
Reaching
For soul solutions
Reaching
For a Heart
...
Road has always
Been so lonely
Road has always
Been so hard
Words of comfort
Wouldn´t reach you
Waves within were
Much too high
...
Now its quiet
Now the reason
Slowly seem
To reappear
Hands are reaching
Hearts are calling
Love was always
Really there
...
Dancing dancing
In the Light
And Love of here
Now has come
To free our minds
Time has come
To throw our fears
...
You are loved
You are love

reply to post by laffoe


Thanks for all those kind, loving vibes you're sending me. I wont thank you for being so patronizing.

reply to post by Garfee


Makes my heart happy if you felt loved, because you truly are.
Any patronizing was not intended and I apologize if you felt that way,
we are equals of the same Source.

May love and light be with you

Originally posted by laffoe
True faith is faith and proof is proof.
Faith, however, is a skill that can be learned.

There's no skill in turning your brain off.

Originally posted by laffoe
I´ve asked you before and I´ll ask you again: look within your heart, what does it tell you

Ba-Boom, Ba-Boom, Ba-Boom,

Originally posted by laffoe
Look into the mirror, what do you see?

One handsome guy!

Originally posted by laffoe
May also ponder upon proof...
What is it that proof will give you, how will proof improve your life?

Proof defines the difference between the real, and the imagined. I like the real world.

Originally posted by laffoe
Know that you are loved, and when one day you realize that God/Source indeed are real, beyond any proof,
it´ll be all ok.

Everything is ok now. There is nothing to realise. I don't need to believe in a sky fairy to be happy and fulfilled. Please do not preach at me!

Cheers!
IRM

reply to post by InfaRedMan


Happy that everything is ok for you now, and that you are a handsome guy

I won´t preach... don´t do preaching

Hope the best for you

Originally posted by Garfee
reply to post by laffoe

 

I hope god does a good job telling you when to go to the bathroom.

Can you ask it if it's will is stronger than ours, why it so enjoys causing people pain and heartache?

God's will is stronger of course but you are currently using your own so the pain and suffering are on your shoulders.....Return to god and offer yourself and things would change.

reply to post by newcovenant


inncorrect......and correct..........everyone has to do it

Originally posted by InfaRedMan
When people kill other people, and if gods will is stronger than ours, should we blame god and not the murderer? If not, does that mean that man's will is stronger than gods. Or does it mean that gods will is only stronger than the will of those that worship him?

IRM

edit on 29/5/11 by InfaRedMan because: typos n stuff!

It means that free will was not offered freely by god. It was out of the request that free will has been given and honered........Sure gods will can over come all but only if he wants to........He doesnt.

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by laffoe

 

You wrote:

["Cutting through those systems made up by ego - it is possibly for all of us to dwell into the loving presence of God."]

After your initial building up a canvass (always a good thing if not too long) you arrive at this statement, which is the same as myriad of theists have presented before, and which is a postulate, or the result of doctrinal arguing/indoctrination.

Anyway there exist other systems relating to 'ego' with practically opposite conclusions. Systems which imo is better validated (to the extent validation can be done in trans-cosmic scenarios).

Quote: ["All of our fear, doubt and shame"]

Speak for yourself. Don't use inclusive words like "our" fear etc.

Quote: ["God knows them too"]

Condition one: 'God's existence is debatable. Condition two: 'God' must be demonstrated to be omniscient to be able to correspond with your claims.

Quote: [" Ask for foregiveness"]

For what?

Quote: [" Ask for Him to enter within your heart"]

Even if this entity should exist in one form or another, the last thing I would want is to have it in my heart. I have no intentions of becoming a zombi.

Quote: [" Ask for reality"]

I've done that for 45 years now, and I make slow, but steady progress. The main obstacle (apart loudmouthed and stupid, fascist politicians) is theist doctrinalism.

Quote: [" My daughter had confirmaton today, the quote she choose was: One who does not love does not know God, because God is love."]

What about those, who DO love, but are uninterested in 'god'?

Quote: ["God is so much more than love, but basically that is our gateway to him.... Love"]

The character from OT was schizoid, sociopathic, a control-freak and genocidal. I can do without that kind of love.

Quote: [" Resonating within, being more and more aligned with the loving nature of God,..."]

I resonate just fine without 'god'.

Quote: ["which naturally makes a thirst for Unity and sharing (we are all from the same source),"]

Ofcourse a source defined by you or your pastor.

Quote: ["some things made me wonder."]

That makes two of us.

Quote: ["Why are we so sensitive to all those influences from the environment, from others who wish to control us?"]

Including preachers and religionist missionaries? They don't control me, mate.

Quote: ["And who is it really we let have that control of us."]

Building up to a predetermined answer, are you?

Quote: ["What is free will?"]

Absense of compulsion.

Quote: [" Is it really free when we can be controlled or greatly influenced..."]

It's definitely more difficult, when there are control-freaks like Jahveh and his gang hanging around.

Quote: ["Call it mindcontrol, brainwash or whatever What about or Free Will and Mother Nature? Can you honestly say we love and respect her?"]

What kind of question is that? Or is it just sniping at wiccas and environmentalists?

Quote: ["God on the other hand. Knows you from within... have always been with you"]

Must be demonstrated to exist and be omniscient first; as above.

Quote: ["Sees through duality"]

Allegedly he created duality, so if he exists, he ought to know it.

Quote: [" God knows everything - Sees 1000 steps ahead, know you by the soul, know what has to be learned, what will make you path continue the best and loving way. God is all inclusive, opposite our egoes He seeks what is best for the whole, out of awareness of Unity"]

You said most of this above. Personally I got it the first time.

Quote: [" God wants only to amaze and to love you "]

People are probably very amazed by being burned for no obvious reasons and on top being told, that it's for their own good.

Quote: ["If we look at our bodies, every cell does its work out of alignment with the homeostasis. Every cell does its job out of the will to serve the greater good. You´ll see even cell sacrificing theit own existence to serve Unity."]

So now we have 'sacrifice' sneaked into it, through misuse of allegory.

Quote: ["When I look at this world we have created, the systems we have made. I see a lot of suffering, chaos and confusion."]

Suffering existed long before mankind arrived at the cosmic scene. But please, please, make my day and start on creationism.

Quote: ["Some try to bake their own cake...)

Not those people I know, who take utilitarian morality seriously or who try to support the ideals of liberal, egalitarian, secular democracy.

Quote: ["Some are just confused and don´t know which step to take"]

And more are just mentally lazy, brainwashed or unwilling to take personal responsibility.

Quote: ["Then it hit me I´ll give up my free will God knows me, only wants the best for me and for us all Really what I want myself, just always don´t know to get there. God does"]

Dude, that's YOUR choice.

Quote: ["So I´ll bow and surrender to Him, give up my free will so to say"]. ...etc

Very cute, and if it suits you, good for you.

Quote: ["I know that is what I want. What my loving Family want."]

Do you have children too young to understand such positions?



Altogether the standard sermon made a zillion times before. You're here to preach? I'm afraid you'll be disappointed. But we have free speech, so give it a try.

to # 1 - If validation is what your after it can only be found in the one place it actually exists......The books and convos that you have had with anyone or anywhere have all been based off of doctrine that has simply been just that : doctored........It only exists after one finds god.....You can not find him by asking him to prove himself to you and that is just silly to request....It is the opposite where as you sir need to prove yourself to him.

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by laffoe

 

You wrote:

["Cutting through those systems made up by ego - it is possibly for all of us to dwell into the loving presence of God."]

After your initial building up a canvass (always a good thing if not too long) you arrive at this statement, which is the same as myriad of theists have presented before, and which is a postulate, or the result of doctrinal arguing/indoctrination.

Anyway there exist other systems relating to 'ego' with practically opposite conclusions. Systems which imo is better validated (to the extent validation can be done in trans-cosmic scenarios).

Quote: ["All of our fear, doubt and shame"]

Speak for yourself. Don't use inclusive words like "our" fear etc.

Quote: ["God knows them too"]

Condition one: 'God's existence is debatable. Condition two: 'God' must be demonstrated to be omniscient to be able to correspond with your claims.

Quote: [" Ask for foregiveness"]

For what?

Quote: [" Ask for Him to enter within your heart"]

Even if this entity should exist in one form or another, the last thing I would want is to have it in my heart. I have no intentions of becoming a zombi.

Quote: [" Ask for reality"]

I've done that for 45 years now, and I make slow, but steady progress. The main obstacle (apart loudmouthed and stupid, fascist politicians) is theist doctrinalism.

Quote: [" My daughter had confirmaton today, the quote she choose was: One who does not love does not know God, because God is love."]

What about those, who DO love, but are uninterested in 'god'?

Quote: ["God is so much more than love, but basically that is our gateway to him.... Love"]

The character from OT was schizoid, sociopathic, a control-freak and genocidal. I can do without that kind of love.

Quote: [" Resonating within, being more and more aligned with the loving nature of God,..."]

I resonate just fine without 'god'.

Quote: ["which naturally makes a thirst for Unity and sharing (we are all from the same source),"]

Ofcourse a source defined by you or your pastor.

Quote: ["some things made me wonder."]

That makes two of us.

Quote: ["Why are we so sensitive to all those influences from the environment, from others who wish to control us?"]

Including preachers and religionist missionaries? They don't control me, mate.

Quote: ["And who is it really we let have that control of us."]

Building up to a predetermined answer, are you?

Quote: ["What is free will?"]

Absense of compulsion.

Quote: [" Is it really free when we can be controlled or greatly influenced..."]

It's definitely more difficult, when there are control-freaks like Jahveh and his gang hanging around.

Quote: ["Call it mindcontrol, brainwash or whatever What about or Free Will and Mother Nature? Can you honestly say we love and respect her?"]

What kind of question is that? Or is it just sniping at wiccas and environmentalists?

Quote: ["God on the other hand. Knows you from within... have always been with you"]

Must be demonstrated to exist and be omniscient first; as above.

Quote: ["Sees through duality"]

Allegedly he created duality, so if he exists, he ought to know it.

Quote: [" God knows everything - Sees 1000 steps ahead, know you by the soul, know what has to be learned, what will make you path continue the best and loving way. God is all inclusive, opposite our egoes He seeks what is best for the whole, out of awareness of Unity"]

You said most of this above. Personally I got it the first time.

Quote: [" God wants only to amaze and to love you "]

People are probably very amazed by being burned for no obvious reasons and on top being told, that it's for their own good.

Quote: ["If we look at our bodies, every cell does its work out of alignment with the homeostasis. Every cell does its job out of the will to serve the greater good. You´ll see even cell sacrificing theit own existence to serve Unity."]

So now we have 'sacrifice' sneaked into it, through misuse of allegory.

Quote: ["When I look at this world we have created, the systems we have made. I see a lot of suffering, chaos and confusion."]

Suffering existed long before mankind arrived at the cosmic scene. But please, please, make my day and start on creationism.

Quote: ["Some try to bake their own cake...)

Not those people I know, who take utilitarian morality seriously or who try to support the ideals of liberal, egalitarian, secular democracy.

Quote: ["Some are just confused and don´t know which step to take"]

And more are just mentally lazy, brainwashed or unwilling to take personal responsibility.

Quote: ["Then it hit me I´ll give up my free will God knows me, only wants the best for me and for us all Really what I want myself, just always don´t know to get there. God does"]

Dude, that's YOUR choice.

Quote: ["So I´ll bow and surrender to Him, give up my free will so to say"]. ...etc

Very cute, and if it suits you, good for you.

Quote: ["I know that is what I want. What my loving Family want."]

Do you have children too young to understand such positions?



Altogether the standard sermon made a zillion times before. You're here to preach? I'm afraid you'll be disappointed. But we have free speech, so give it a try.

# 2 - he was speaking in generalities there but the literal side also exists....If you are one who believes they dont share any pieces of all three of those things you are forcing yourself to believe it and not facing your true self.....You can only bury it....That doesnt make it go away....You must face it.

# 3 His existance is not debatable but simply deniable....It is your test and choice to believe if you wish and if you dont the same applies....You do not get truth or proof through doubting his very existance.......With this mind frame you will be placed in the back of the line made to wait to ponder what you will say when you meet him face to face because the day will come. (point 2) Please just stop telling god what you think he should be like.....Let him be what ever he wishes to be.......nomatter what that may be.......If you do that he may just give you what you want and make the times you missed what he did more obvious for you to notice.

# 4 - Ask for forgivness for the same reason you are pissed off for being here......You blame him but he blames you.....Who do you think has a better chance of being right about it.....It at least deserves some thought.

# 5 - Your cup is way too full bc the judgments you are making now will be the reason you end up a zombie with no brain activity left what so ever.......When one lets god into their heart the are set free not enslaved...It is just that type of thinking that got us all in this in the first place.......hear me

# 6 - You gain slow but steady progress bc you are unworthy to find truth so the illusion of a door getting closer will remain just that : a door seeming to get closer......I exlained this optical illussion of the stairway climb with the mathmatical formula creating the illussion of a door getting closer and the steps adding and subtracting to make the effect seem real...You will never reach the top or that door while those beliefs you harbor on are current....You will just keep climbing and be kept in that cage until you learn how to behave.

# 7 - The ones who love but are uniterested in god are one step closer to the truth than one who is uniterested in both.

# 8 - So can all of us.......So how about you and all those that are currently display such disregard stop driving him crazy...........He doesnt have to be that way but his children are currently out of control making horrible choices........Take responsibility for your actions instead of placing the blame on such an easy target.

# 9 - The only reason you would ever resonate with anything is bc of god and him asking nothing in return.....Thank him you a-hole.

# 10 - always deflecting i see

# 11 - when you wonder are you this sinacle as well to yourself or do you treat yourself with respect bc here you show none.

# 12 - If you believe that you arent being controlled than you are so far behind in waking up to whats around you that i feel sad for the shock value you will have when the build up of denial hits you at once from explosion of too many things stored away for later evaluation...

13 - Do you really think he was hiding it, and good for you for being able to read on a high school level......You can pick out intention......good for you.

14 - Free will is not absence of compulsion.

15 - Sir......You lie on a daily basis and to yourself among all others that you exagerate embelish underestimate to as well......This is a form of control that you are trying to place on others to believe what you want them to believe.....You disagree with this one and you simply just said another lie.......Keep it up....

16 - Its the perfect question for someone like you which is why you deflected it and ran away from it.

# 17 - You dare give an ultimatum to God....Who the f998** do you think you are......Goodness....you are so dense I wouldnt be surprised if you if he gives it to you and after he does makes you feel exactly what you made him feel your entire life. Just horrible what you are doing to him.....

# 18 - T o believe that you are capable of undersatnding the concept of god is such a display of ego that you reak of it......Your judgements are so far from being in the ballpark that you really should start thinking things over and revaluating a bunch of things....

# 19 - You didnt get it the first time or the second time and since this time was probably in the realm of the millionth time you can undersatnd why we repeat ourselves to those who have decided to close their ears to this information....We wont give up on you no matter how mean you can be......You are weak so we carry you up kicking and screaming...Youll thank us later bc what you know now will change in a little while....

# 20 - NO OBVIOUS REASONS.........YOU ARE SO SELF RIGHTOUS ITS SICKENING......YOU ARE GUILTY OF SO MANY HORRID THINGS THAT YOU DESERVE SO MANY MORE HORRIBLE THINGS TO HAPPEN TO YOU............BUT TRUTH BE TOLD YOU ARE CREATING EVERYTHING YOU SEE AND IT IS DIRECTLY LINKED TO THE THOUGHTS YOU DWELL ON....lOOK IN THE MIRROR

# 21 - Yes sacrifice is involved and you should be greatful that you will never have to experience it and that god does for you.

# 22 - creationism is already active in our actions and words....If you are blind to it well that is the reason you stand alone or with the group that also stands alone.

# 23 - well the balances are now shifted in our favor....Every day hords of people join our goals of unity and love and one ness.......We already outnumber you now by far and soon you will be the largest minority and forced to re evaluate what your conclusions have left you believing....It really isint all your fault.....Misery loves company so your misery has attracted like minded individuals so how could you ever hear us when you have others feeding your lies.

# 24 - that was the perfect confession....Now just make it intentional and you will be on the right road....

# 25 - and made wisely.......and the reason that op has found such hapiness and you bathe in frowns, rage, and, grumpyness.......plus much more that you can't deny.....You want a change then get off your chair and make one.....Stop making selfish decisions and help someone other than yourself.....

# 26 - First nice thing i read from you.......even if it was not intentional and sarcastic.

# 27 - It isnt the ps children you should be worried about....Its the unhappy angry ones that you would have obviously bred......Hope a wife with alternate views was also involved in their upbringing......

Agreed...Being dissapointed has become part of our lives as you said we have tried a zillion times and there are still people like you whop are perfectly happy coming in to a place where someone has posted a message from the heart that wasnt even directed specifically to you only so you could stab him verbally around 30 times.......You disgust and embarass me sir.....Im sure you will have just as many witty remarks yet again but we are both wasting our time right?

So why are you here? Think about it. Your soul is screaming at you pulling you in our direction and you are fighting it every step of the way....Either listen to your soul or be forever torn and alone.......until the end day when god smacks you himself.

There are way to many displaying vanity in here........Op......WELL DONE ON THE MESSAGE... i hope it attracts many who try to defend it so you can know who you search for.........Im happy that at least the vinity will help those good people come to your aid.........I for one must leave this thread for now because of one in particular that was just so disgusting that im ashammed to be in the same thread as him at the moment......Ill be back to defend you so more tho soon.........

Keep up the great work and I cant wait to hear that anti christ message you will be posting in here. That one sounds like it will get people crazy but will gather many good hearted brothers and sisters while making the snakes come in here to hiss and snap.


Much love...