Gods Will conquers free will

reply to post by bogomil


So you chose to quibble with me and tear apart what i said to satisfy your own anti-theism agenda? If your rational approach to discovering the existence of a "god" is what serves you due to your desire for proof, I wish you luck. Oh, by the way, in order for the concept of faith to exist, so must it's opposite which is why i will always appreciate those of you who have none.

Originally posted by laffoe
reply to post by Garfee

 

Why should we blame God for suffering and heartache
If we exercise our free will
We might break others heart
Or might get our own heart broken
I know I´ve tried both
God see the big perspective, see into our hearts
Only wants what is best for us
Has nothing to do with going to bathrooms, have to do with dwelling into that Universal Love,
living your life out from there.
If we all do it, I promise you suffering will be history

Read the OP. Apparetly god does in fact have will that is stronger than our. That means god can stop evil acts by humans but refuses to. god is a c*nt.

reply to post by laffoe

Then it hit me
I´ll give up my free will
God knows me, only wants the best for me and for us all
Really what I want myself, just always don´t know to get there.
God does
So I´ll bow and surrender to Him, give up my free will so to say.
I´ll lean back as a baby, dwelling in the love and light of God.
Creating with God, from the connection within the heart.

This is recognized as an essential step on the path of religious or spiritual devotion, known as bhakti in Sanskrit.

Having once made the commitment to surrender the personal will, the devotee is usually confronted with circumstances which test the conviction of such a commitment.

Also, it is not so easy to distinguish between self-will and what is considered to be God's will. The mind is adept at rationalizing and justifying what the ego-self wants and desires. Until the devotee has firm control over their own mind, it is unlikely that the path of surrender will be smooth.

I wish you well in your endeavour.

Originally posted by weareone63
It is always so very difficult to get people who follow any organized religion to try to understand that god created EVERYTHING. Free will is gods way of letting us determine the path that we'll walk during our journey to reunite with him. In order for that to occur, some of the souls who come here are creating or doing "evil" things so that we may learn from them and grow. EVERY person is part of the "puzzle" that is gods creation. To deny any part of that is to deny that god created a perfect existence for us to grow within. Although we may not ever understand how everthing works, just know that gods will is being done by every person on this planet at every moment in time. Once you accept that, maybe you'll stop judging what god has created and just know that gods will can never be avoided because we are all actors on this stage we call life.

Thankyou for sharing your wisdom.
Indeed from a deeper perspective all you say is the truth, free will is actually our path of learning.
In a way, like you say, everything is perfectly planned already.
Some of us might just need a little push from time to time to realize that.
When you surrender free will in the hands of God, you´ll truly realize that it really never existed in the first place.

Originally posted by newcovenant
reply to post by InfaRedMan

 

Blame is sort of a waste of time that gets no one anywhere and really doesn't even make you feel relieved. It exacerbates every situation it is found in and makes it worse. Cause is effective. Find that and you will find your problem. Hatred and fear do a lot of damage and people who use religion to do harm are not representative of the rest who do not.

Agreed
Blame is like turning it all outside, while the truth lies inside.
A deep look inside, finding our own darkness, our own shame fear anger, finding all that,
and still realizing that we are loved and we are love through all that.
That God loves us eternal just like we are, and it is just ok to share it all, like you do with loved ones.
Appreciate your loving presence here

reply to post by bogomil


Tell me how to reach your heart

Please

Originally posted by InfaRedMan
reply to post by weareone63

 

Can you provide unimpeachable proof to back your statements? Remember, faith does not equate to proof. All you've really given us here is the old celestial teapot argument.

The proof is us all, in everything you see
You are the proof

You know about scientific facts, that the only thing that is sure, is that what was proved yesterday is a lie tomorrow.
You´ll see the proof of God (which is a permanent truth) when you decide to look for it.
And by that I mean really decide... taking it into your heart - exploring.
Try
If you do that for real, wholeheartedly, then come back and share what you´ve found
May love be your guide

Originally posted by InfaRedMan
reply to post by newcovenant

 

I have no idea how your esoteric and somewhat cryptic response relates to my first post.

IRM

Esoteric = the search for God inside
Well, what are we doing here?

reply to post by Unity_99


Your words are flawless emanating Love and... yes... Unity
I am gratefull for your presence here, and my heart are proud and joyful by sharing
this amazing journey with you

Originally posted by yets777
nothing beats a good connection with the source ,
your every chakra resonating ,
body moving like a fluid,
nothing beats it ,

free will only sends
us on a path seeking
what it is
we lost
don't blame god
find him
ule know then

Brother
You are such a darling

I wish for the world to get to know you
Would make a happier place

Love love love

reply to post by mysticnoon


Thank you for your kind words and good wishes.
I deeply aprreciate your loving presence and wish for you the best on your journey

May God guide your steps, and you life be abundant with Love and Light

reply to post by Garfee


Hope only you one fine day will open your heart and your mind
All my love for you
Please choose your words with care, because through your thoughts, words and action you
create your life
I wish for you to create a loving life of abundance

Is it not "free-will" that allows you to believe as you do about this? Without it...you'd be restricted and one-sided and perhaps entirely wrong.

You could go about killing people thinking as long as you believe its Gods will and not your own "free will"...you arent still a murderer for trusting in what you THOUGHT...was Gods will and not your own so it was ok.

Religious fanatics have killed MILLIONS over the centuries believing they HAD to kill...that it was Gods will...and they were following it. Do you see that? Your own free will allows you to feel things as we do...or dont.

reply to post by newcovenant


I think my answer to you won't digress much from my first post to you:

You wrote:

["Some people just need moral support. Others need someone to tell them what they want to do is possible.
Some need to be pointed in a direction. Some people need to be told no."]

You have to be darned sure about 'directions', before you 'point' them out to somebody.

In some cases authority is justified. Being educated as a car-mechanic, I'm probably better than most in that area, while my skills with setting broken bones are so small, that a doctor would be better for the job.

This is because such knowledge is 'real'. Knowledge on the more complex, abstract, conceptual, anomalous, trans-cosmic have little or no such 'authority'/'reality' checks. Much of the stuff is actually made up on the way, is parrotting of brainwashed-indoctrination or just plain overenthusiastic guesses or fabulations.

Any claim of having the competence to direct people or give them moral support, must be verified first. You don't put your life in the hand of the first the best megalomaniac coming your way.

Quote: ["I don't really keep track and sorry if it sounded guru like to you but maybe this is your own somewhat limited perception."]

My perception wasn't 'limited', it was the information on your qualifications as a moral guide, which was limited. Consequently leading me to ask about them.

You seem to repeat the guru-stunt again in this post. By helping your nephew and a friend in some mundane situations, you don't qualify yourself to.....

Quote: ["If figuring out the universe and quantum physics were everyone's problem fine, facts fit. But these days more people have a problem with finding compassion, sense and soul. They are wondering if there is such a thing and if so where does it reside?

Some people just need moral support. ..."]

...which is far beyond (the praiseworthy) common sense you most likely possess.

reply to post by weareone63


You wrote:

["So you chose to quibble with me and tear apart what i said to satisfy your own anti-theism agenda?"]

It's an oversimplification of my position; but OK, for the duration and in this context, your classification of me is workable. Hopefully a less black/white and more precise model can emerge later. As it is, I don't mind to be considered querulous.

Quote: ["If your rational approach to discovering the existence of a "god" is what serves you due to your desire for proof, I wish you luck."]

The insistence on 'proof' depends on the situation. Generally any postulated overall answer (e.g. a theist doctrine or a scientific hypothesis), especially if it's presented in the form of an 'absolute', must be considered from an 'objective' perspective: It's something including everybody and everything, thus it can't be promoted on subjective values.

What's not presented as universal, 'absolute', inclusive etc. can very well be subjective, and I am not especially interested in picking privately performed faiths etc apart.

Quote: ["Oh, by the way, in order for the concept of faith to exist, so must it's opposite which is why i will always appreciate those of you who have none."]

Is this an adaption of some tao'ist principle to fit your present purpose, or is it just an 'axiom' you cooked up on your own?

reply to post by laffoe


As Mysticnoon and Mysterioustranger already excellently have commented on some essential aspects on the topic, I won't need to repeat, what they wrote, but only say that their comments are very similar to my own opinions.

A direct, personal answer to your question is (starting from a formal definition), that I follow principles of compassion. But not exclusively being a Bhakti myself, I temper this attitude with other considerations, which I find of equal importance. I direct my 'active' compassion to situations, where other values are involved.

E.g. are missionaries from various invasive fascist ideologies very low on my list of those I'll 'compassionate' about, while doing something about mis-treatment of animals and children has a high priority for me.

It's questionable, if the following will be understood or create much general interest, but my personal path starts from the three-gunic model of existence, with the aim of harmonizing the cosmic gunic manifestations in myself to a symmetric balance. Put primitively it's a kind of cessation of 'duality'.

'Authority', worship, 'gods', hierarchy, doctrines etc are worse than useless, because what I consider the beneficial results of 'surrendering your will' in theist bhakti'ism is that the theist implications eventually will make twice as much 'inner noise' than even mundane involvment. It's one step forward and two backwards.

It's not a model/method I propagate for except in a resulting negation-context, where I actively support the idea, that people should start with themselves and their own existential search, instead of sending half-baked propaganda messages out to 'save' others, before they are 'saved' themselves.

Missioning is imo a manifestation of a dysfunctional mindset, and to forestall the usual semantic gymnastics so beloved by evangelists: It's quite possible to demonstrate the quality of whatever you stand for without being intrusive.

reply to post by bogomil


Thankyou for your reply
I appreciate your presence here
For what it´s woth I symphatize deeply with your compassion for children and animals.

Also I agree with you that we should start with ourselves, I have no intention of missionating.
What is true is true.
I hope here only to share something from the heart, be it of use for anyone.
This is not about religion, prefering one for another.
About thruth of the heart.

I experience God (or whatever we call this all-loving presence) to be a living reality, and hope for others to experience the same.
Not to follow me, but to follow their own truth within.

You seem to be well on the path (not that you need my valuation of that)
Would love to hear something about that three-gunic model of existence

Love and respect

reply to post by bogomil

My perception wasn't 'limited', it was the information on your qualifications as a moral guide, which was limited. Consequently leading me to ask about them.

Moral guide????
That is a hoot. No one ever accused ME of that.
You got the wrong fella, fella. So you have to be moral now to help people?
Morals are something different altogether and I have a few but I am no guide.

I know you have a great deal to say but after the first sentence admitting nothing has changed why should I waste my valuable time, and it is precious (I could be sleeping) reading further?
Some people are literally spirit wise, black holes of negativity trying to suck good people into them and make them fold or be discouraged. This may be your case.
The OP will humor you because THAT person cares that much. I don't. If you require help, ask and I will do my best to do whatever I can but otherwise I have nothing to prove to you. So if you are seeking enlightenment I recommend a professional in the field.

This is truly about reaching Unity
I know I want it
No one can be saved except all of us

My heart
My love
Goes with you

reply to post by laffoe


And I in my turn appreciate your will for searching common communication.

Quote: ["....I have no intention of missionating."]

I also appreciate that too, though the initial OP contained a lot of concepts and postulates presented as 'truth'. If we together can come to a point, where your theistic 'truths' maybe only are truths for you on a subjective basis, I'm content.

A debate on the map and territory of objective procedure would be somewhat different though.

Quote: ["What is true is true."]

Which is not actually directly relevant to what people present AS BEING truth.

Quote: ["I hope here only to share something from the heart, be it of use for anyone."]

'Sharing' is a word of dubious worth in the context of a public forum. I could say, that I'm only here to 'share' opinions opposite to yours.

Quote: ["This is not about religion, prefering one for another."]

So it's about theism, and theistic values?

Quote: ["About thruth of the heart."]

Do any alleged 'truth of the heart' excel other truth-finding methods? Maybe even to the point of exclusivity?

Quote: ["I experience God (or whatever we call this all-loving presence) to be a living reality, and hope for others to experience the same.
Not to follow me, but to follow their own truth within."]

Formulated the way it is: No objections.

Quote: ["You seem to be well on the path (not that you need my valuation of that)"]

Praise for the last half of the sentence (not that you need my approval either).

Quote: ["Would love to hear something about that three-gunic model of existence"]

I'll return on this, when this thread has run its directly-topic related course. It would break its flow now, if I went off into side-tracks. If you wish, I can send you a U2U, when I go into tri-gunism.