Demolishing the "how did anyone live while those organs evolved?” "argument"

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


Well, I don't think anyone should be shouting loudly at the top of a mountain about an opinion or belief, those that believe in God that do that in my humble opinion are wrong. That said, I feel the same for those on the other side of the argument as well. A mountain of evidence is one thing, a scientific fact is another and unless i'm wrong, evolution has not been proven to be fact quite yet.

I don't necessarily not believe in evolution of species, in fact I'm inclined to think it is quite likely but I am just not quite ready to say that carries over to mankind. This may be seen as naive or blatantly turning my eyes away from evidence but that just isn't true, my belief in God enhances my life and the way I live my life and that is something that evolution just can't do for me.

Most every culture in the entire world since the dawn of man has had belief in God, in one form or another and there are very real reasons for that although they vary greatly but this fact cannot be so easily dismissed. It is up to everyone to choose what they believe and what they choose to believe. After all, it's our God given right.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
We're overpopulated. Our population doesn't cull out those who are born sick or with disadvantages that would render them entirely incapable of surviving on their own. We would not be able to sustain our current population without modern technologies.
The world is massive..but 2/3rds of it is already uninhabitable because we're not aquatic. The rest of it varies in inhabitablity, but we still would be unable to maintain our current population without modern technology.

I have no problem with this opinion, I just wanted to ask a question regarding our minds.
Would you say our intelligence evolved to the point where our minds give us a great understanding of our reality?
If so, sustaining our current population without modern technologies has no bearing on anything. It's not like next week all doctors will forget how to prescribe penicillan. If our minds evolved naturally, then this is all part of what evolution is actually accomplishing. In the evolution system, we evolved the ability to reason, and try to perfect the environment around us. With this anything would be possible, in the confines of our maximum intelligence. We could figure out a way to live on the moon and other space rocks. We could figure out how to live in the oceans, or under the earth. We could spread across the universe. And as you know, this universe is huge. So we are not even close to being overpopulated. All the families in the world could have a house and a yard and all live together on a landmass the size of Texas.

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
reply to post by madnessinmysoul

 

Those organs evolved as an assistance to living, not as a necessity.

Well there's the answer right there. I tend to stay away from these evolution versus retardedness, er, i mean creationism as I have to ignore proven science to believe any of it. And they have to resort to sillyness like that to make their "point".
Man evolved, as did the organs inside him. This is why we have "useless" organs currently, evolution has made then redundant or un-needed, and eventually they will cease to exist altogether.

Could you please list these useless organs in the human body, because this is news to me.

reply to post by addygrace


Tailbone. Tonsils. Um..I forget the name of them. You know how in the inner corner of your eye there's that little pink bit that is where tears well up? Yeah, that's the remnants of a second eyelid. If you're a dog owner, you might have seen the analogous bit still in semi-use when they sleep. It's sort of freaky. Anyway, that bit is my favorite one. It's tissue that can be used for a second eyelid but has no musculature attached.

reply to post by addygrace


Um..that Texas thing...I think we'd probably all die of suffocation..well, except the people on the fringes of the group. We'd also exhaust all of the water quite quickly. Oh, and we would be generating all of the waste in the world, particularly human fecal matter, and would have to deal with it within the confines of Texas for 7 billion people. Then there'd be the starvation, as we don't have the capacity for the sort of infrastructure needed to provide that much food for that many people in such a small space...especially if nobody is outside of that space providing the food.

Another problem...if we lost the technology then how are we going to make penicillin? I'm saying that intellect on its own isn't enough. We were quite smart back in Aristotle's time, yet back then the life expectancy was no more than 40 for the average person. Intellect on its own isn't enough. If we suddenly lost all of our technology tomorrow we'd have to start from scratch. It would take a while to put the pieces back together.

There's another thing with that too. We didn't always have communication. The spoken word and then the written word were the two biggest innovations in human thought..they really allowed proper thought. Imagine the extent of reason when there isn't a linguistic structure to it. Technology builds upon technology...if we lost it all we'd have to start from scratch again.

reply to post by Helious


No, evolution is a scientific fact. Allele frequencies have been directly observed to change over successive generations within a gene pool more than a few times.

And here's the crazy thing...I'm not telling you to stop believing in your deity of choice. Well, I might be in another thread. This thread is just about evolution, which has absolutely nothing to do with a deity. It's just an observed fact of life. You can go on believing in your deity of choice and still accept the reality of it. Two of my closest friends growing up were both devout Christians. One is a Catholic who never doubted evolution, the other is a Presbyterian who only accepted evolution when he was around 17...and both still believe to this day.

Ken Miller is a famous biologist who publicly defended evolution in the Dover trial and publicly attacked intelligent design not just in that trial but also just in general for the sake of education. He's a devout Catholic.

My favorite paleontologist believe in evolution and also happens to be a Pentecostal preacher (Robert T Bakker). I disagree with him on the religion stuff, but he sure as hell accepts the science.

Don't make this about religion, it's not. It's about facts. The fact of the matter is that evolution is a fact.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


Ok, I did a little reading and what I found said that natural selection is theory that proves the fact. So, fact it is. I never challenged the idea of evolution, or the science behind it, just that I choose to believe in God so I don't think we have an argument.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by addygrace

 

Tailbone. Tonsils. Um..I forget the name of them. You know how in the inner corner of your eye there's that little pink bit that is where tears well up? Yeah, that's the remnants of a second eyelid. If you're a dog owner, you might have seen the analogous bit still in semi-use when they sleep. It's sort of freaky. Anyway, that bit is my favorite one. It's tissue that can be used for a second eyelid but has no musculature attached.

The tailbone is believed to be vestigial, not useless. How would you have sex? It supports your anus. It also supports many muscles and tendons. It also supports your weight when you're sitting upright.

Tonsils are one of the bodies defenses against germs and bacteria.

Originally posted by addygrace
The tailbone is believed to be vestigial, not useless.

How would you have sex? It supports your anus. It also supports many muscles and tendons. It also supports your weight when you're sitting upright.

He probably worded it wrong when he said "useless". The definition for vestigial is:

Vestigiality describes homologous characters of organisms that have seemingly lost all or most of their original function in a species through evolution.

You are quite right about ti supporting muscular structure, but it is a remnant left over from our Primate ancestors

In humans and other tailless primates (e.g. great apes) since Nacholaphitecus (a Miocene hominoid), the coccyx is the remnant of a vestigial tail, but still not entirely useless; it is an important attachment for various muscles, tendons and ligaments — which makes it necessary for physicians and patients to pay special attention to these attachments when considering surgical removal of the coccyx

Originally posted by addygrace
Tonsils are one of the bodies defenses against germs and bacteria.

Indeed, but we can live quite happily without them. I myself had mine taken out when I was 4 and do quite well without them. In fact, I am doing better without them as they got so infected they would cause more harm than good.

Originally posted by Lionhearte
I don't understand this. Cancer exists in everyone from the day we are born, our bodies are designed to fight it off, of course. It's only when we're not able to fight it off (whether because of a poor immune system, or perhaps something triggers it to grow) that it gets too wide-spread, and people die from it. The point here being, that if it were to occur, our bodies are designed to fix it.

All of that aside, you didn't actually address the point, did you? What is cancer? A genetic mutation in a cell causing it to grow uncontrollably. You said genetic mutation was impossible, this was my response.

Originally posted by Lionhearte
Mutations aren't naturally beneficial by any means, else our bodies would accept them.

Some mutations aren't beneficial, but some are. It's purely pot luck when it comes to evolution. For example (I use this example every time) if you had a cactus in a desert that produces some seeds. Within these seeds, some of the genetic material is corrupted and results in the plant that will grow retaining less water. Some other seeds have mutated to hold more water and most will do exactly as their parents do.

Now, if the environment changes to be drier, the ones which hold less water will die out, leaving only the one holding more water remaining. Over time, more changes accumulate and result in more changes to the organism, some may be harmful and others may be beneficial. It entirely depends on the environment the organism is in and random luck. Given enough time, the descendents of these organisms may look entirely different than their ancestors.

Originally posted by Lionhearte
Can you explain why donor patients have to take meds to suppress their immune system when they receive an implant?

Actually, as my brother is one of those people, yes I can, despite it having nothing to do with evolution or genetic mutation. It is the bodies immune system rejecting foreign tissue. You seem to be confusing this with a genetic mutation that occurs prior to conception, which is where evolution happens. Organisms don't evolve while they are alive, their DNA is determined prior to conception, as a result, their body won't reject a mutation because as far as the immune system is concerned, there is nothing to reject.

Originally posted by Lionhearte
I hear this a lot, actually. I may as well come out and clarify EXACTLY where I stand: I'm open to all ideas. I can ACTUALLY believe in some form of Evolution, in fact I think it should be obvious... I just don't think it happens the way most people do. Adaptation is a real thing; but all the "extra" parts they have to tag on to it just make it sound silly.

What "extra parts"? Lay out your stall clearly and then we can see what it is you have a problem with.

Originally posted by Lionhearte
Hell, I even believe the Big Bang happened, in a sense.

"In a sense"? Elaborate. It's hard to engage in constructive debate when your reasoning and position is not clear.

reply to post by Helious


Good job. I'm happy when people can come to accept science and realize that it doesn't have to alter their religious beliefs all that much.

reply to post by addygrace


And the second eyelid that we're not using? And the tonsils are something that we cut out after a certain point. It may be a defense, but it can kill you if it's infected too often.

Oh, and the appendix, which is a ticking time bomb for some people.

And goosebumps. We don't have anywhere near enough hair for them to be useful at keeping in heat or making us look bigger to predators or rivals.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by addygrace

 

And the second eyelid that we're not using? And the tonsils are something that we cut out after a certain point. It may be a defense, but it can kill you if it's infected too often.

Oh, and the appendix, which is a ticking time bomb for some people.

And goosebumps. We don't have anywhere near enough hair for them to be useful at keeping in heat or making us look bigger to predators or rivals.

The second eyelid you're mentioning is a now useless part of the nictitating membrane which still sees use in modern day animals like birds and sharks. Pretty cool stuff really.