US government wages sock puppet war against its own citizens

Originally posted by christof94
Wow... I always thought people here were crazy when they talked about government shills on the internet.

Actually one of the members I U2U'd about this thread is busy trying to dig up a PDF published by the Government back in 2001 that highlighted this capability to use sock puppets and fake internet personas.

What we don't really know for sure, is that while wiki-leaks has displayed that companies like HB Gary are inventing programs and selling them to the government we don't know if these private corporations are also selling it to other organizations.

In other words does the Sierra Club or Southern Poverty Law Center or Anti-Defamation League also have this same kind of software, bought or self developed, used or otherwise employed?

What about Bank of America, or Kraft or BP Oil?

Since Wiki-Leaks exposed HB Gary's version a couple months ago I keep revisiting that through these related stories because I think a lot of people 'believe' but don't really believe these programs exist and they really are being used, and used on Americans by Americans and just what the ramifications of that ultimately will be either.

The Internet is only as free as the honesty of how information is being presented on it.

I think that's something that should be important to us all.

Thanks for posting.

reply to post by Jakes51

Great find Proto! If the Army Corps of Engineers employees got online to distort the facts or ridicule the victims of such a tragic calamity like Katrina, it was an insult to injury and downright rotten. Apparently, they have a lot to hide about their role as caretakers of the levees in New Orleans? Those employees along with their supervisors should have been fired on the spot. However, judging by the news report; it seems they tried to whitewash their involvement.

Extra big star for being the first poster to visit the real tragedy that occured here and just how sinister this all is.

Interestingly enough New Orleans and Lousiana in general has long been known for deep seeded and edemnic corruption within local and state politics.

So we have to ask how much of this dis-information effort on the part of the Core of Engineers is to protect Local, State and Federal Politicians who pocketed money handed out for sub contractor improvements and maintenance on the levies, and how much of that money went back under the table to Core of Engineer Officers for steering that money and those projects to 'recomended' contractors?

The crime here may go beyond just an incompetent government attempting to cover up it's own failures and largesse but elements within groups like the Core of Engineers trying to keep themselves and politicians and contractors out of jail for fraud and embezlement of public funds.

Great post Jakes, thanks for joining in.

Good thread. Anything to bring awareness to the issue. Its been really bad in the Libya threads this last couple months. I know we always get them during campaigns too, and there were quite a few during the BP oil spill as well.

I have to say even if you know whats happening, and you arent fooled into thinking you are arguing with a real person, the fact that it is so easy for them is really frustrating.

At least that site owner pursued the matter. Its what needs to happen. They need to be outed, or its just going to keep getting worse.

Posting a few digits of someone's IP address on blog comments seems like a fine way to avoid this sort of tomfoolery.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
Good thread. Anything to bring awareness to the issue. Its been really bad in the Libya threads this last couple months. I know we always get them during campaigns too, and there were quite a few during the BP oil spill as well.

I have to say even if you know whats happening, and you arent fooled into thinking you are arguing with a real person, the fact that it is so easy for them is really frustrating.

It really is and when you see a dozen stars blossom on an outrageously ignornat post devoid of one fact or critical thought, laced primarily with personal deflection and attacks at some off hand hour of the wee hours in the pre-dawn time of day, and you know in your heart of hearts, no, there really aren't 12 people up and following this thread to star that post within the time you can refresh the page, you really do feel a certain sense of frustration in the face of it all.

People for various reasons want to lie to others and themselves it isn't happening but of course it really is.

What's frightening is while these occurences aren't 'natural' the belief that people will submit to them as a part of their nature per government think tanks like the CFR is what is even more frightening.

In part because in many ways they are quite right.

Thanks for posting!

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Interestingly enough New Orleans and Lousiana in general has long been known for deep seeded and edemnic corruption within local and state politics.

So we have to ask how much of this dis-information effort on the part of the Core of Engineers is to protect Local, State and Federal Politicians who pocketed money handed out for sub contractor improvements and maintenance on the levies, and how much of that money went back under the table to Core of Engineer Officers for steering that money and those projects to 'recomended' contractors?

The crime here may go beyond just an incompetent government attempting to cover up it's own failures and largesse but elements within groups like the Core of Engineers trying to keep themselves and politicians and contractors out of jail for fraud and embezlement of public funds.

Yes, New Orleans and the state of Louisiana has a checkered past. Not to long ago, I remember a story about a US Congressman from Louisiana getting caught with piles of cash stashed in his freezer. His name was William Jefferson, and he got quite a lengthy prison sentence for bribery and corruption.

William Jefferson sentenced to 13 years in prison

Former Rep. William Jefferson was sentenced Friday to serve 13 years in prison for what the lead prosecutor described as "the most extensive and pervasive pattern of corruption in the history of Congress."

That is just one example of the corruption. The culture of corruption goes back generations, and I am fairly certain there was corruption taking place with the the improvements and upkeep of the levees. It was an engineering disaster of epic proportions, and the Army Corps of Engineers are no dummies. It was either sheer negligence or blatant corruption that contributed to the devastation?

I have seen some pictures of the levees before the storm, and the looked like crap. The last time New Orleans got flooded out like that was in 1965, and after Hurricane Betsy. They had 40 years to get those levees ready for the next big storm to hit New Orleans. In 1965 and in 2005, it was the Ninth Ward that suffered the brunt of the devastation. That to me is no freak coincidence, but apparent negligence and corruption.

What happened to local, state, and federal funds that were set aside for maintenance and levee improvements? Not to derail the thread, but I am disgusted by what you revealed Proto. I can see why Hurricane Katrina is a riddle wrapped in an enigma, and why the Army Corps of Engineers went out of there way to degrade, ridicule, and disrupt conversation about this disaster. They have dirt under their fingernails like others leading up to the disaster and after.

Originally posted by incrediblelousminds
Posting a few digits of someone's IP address on blog comments seems like a fine way to avoid this sort of tomfoolery.

Unfortunately the new HB Gary Software randomly assigns a IP Address to each persona it creates, signing them on constantly under different IP Addresses.

One user can manage dozens of fake personas, not even having to type their replies but feeding them with RSS Feeds.

It would be like you writing down everything you ever wanted to say in regards to a subject, signing on to the computer and on to the site, and waiting for the software to detect key words from other posters that automatically then trigger your response, along with the ability to award that persona multiple stars or thumbs at the same time.

Technically once you signed the persona on you wouldn't even have to pay attention to the conversation, be in the room or the building, the program and the RSS Feeds do all that.

Now imagine if you could repeat that with 12 alternate ego personas at the same time all from the same computer, all posting your agrument, all doing it by themselves.

I think it's going to take more than the first couple digits of an IP Address to stop and ferret that out???

The software and it's capabilities is getting more and more sophisticated.

A group of 12 posters could in fact appear to be 200 posters with 200 screen names all infecting a discussion board or thread at once to create an artificial majority that is not just a majority but an overwhelming majority.

threply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


dont they have a right to defend themselves and their reputation. they can't predict the future, they didn't plan the failure. Has all the years it worked good been forgotten. You have to understand some of the people posting are jilted politicles with and agenda to help their own cause when bashing the help. Never did see a post saying great job for getting the water out guys... Before you peer with the eye of suspicion, I am just a regular guy who happens to think his country's engineers are responsible for the drainage of the area...

reply to post by Turkenstein


Yeah they are responsible for the drainage of the area and they were also responsible for building something not up to the advertised specifications.

What this video highlights is government employees, on government time, using government computers, to create sock puppet artifical personas that don't accurately reflect who they are.

That's not defending yourself, that's hiding who you are, and using government funds, facilities, time and money and equipment to create a false argument.

Today you might be able to defend it because you appreciate what you believe the core does for you. I live on a man made island, made by the Army Core of Engineers across a channel made by the Army Core of Engineers to the mainland drained and made inhabitible by the Army Core of Engineers.

Does that elevate them above having to use morals, be honest, represent themselves accurately and be forthcoming about mistakes and failures?

Not in my book friend.

Thanks for posting.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


No, say it ain't so, they would never do that.

Well, it was during the Bush Administration, anything is possible.

Let us wait and see if Obama has anyone under his Administration do it too.

New Orleans has always been known as a city of corruption from top to bottom.

Where Law Enforcement is bought and sold and you're guilty before being proven innocent.

The Army Corps of Engineers doing this though surprises the Hell out of me.

This strikes me as quite odd for an engineering branch of the military.

I would expect it of a PsyOps organization but not one responsible for disaster preparedness.

Could it potentially have been private military contractors operating under the aegis of the Army?

Like Blackwater, DynCorp, or Triple Canopy?

Remember, all of the mercenary organizations were heavily involved, during Katrina and the clean up.

Sounds more their style to attack people criticizing Government than the actual Army.

Awesome investigation there by my new hero (crazy hair) John Donley

...Oh it's good to see them get busted by a seemingly regular guy.

Thanks for the heads-up Proto.

Originally posted by FewWorldOrder
Awesome investigation there by my new hero (crazy hair) John Donley

...Oh it's good to see them get busted by a seemingly regular guy.

Thanks for the heads-up Proto.

Thanks for responding my friend. I consider this one of the most crucial and critical challenges confronting us.

It's getting increasingly harder for Americans to congregate in Public Places to have dialouges that are critical to the Government, so I see it as absolutely vital that the Internet at least be preserved as a place where Americans can engage in honest dialouge.

Nothing honest at all about paid government employees posting the government's official stance on issues through fake personas manufactured to create a majority of opinion and to use peer pressure to get those who are in disagreement to either remain silent or submit.

It runs counter to the very notions of democracy, one voice for each person, not 12 voices for each government employee!

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
... I see it as absolutely vital that the Internet at least be preserved as a place where Americans can engage in honest dialouge.

Nothing honest at all about paid government employees posting the government's official stance on issues through fake personas manufactured to create a majority of opinion and to use peer pressure to get those who are in disagreement to either remain silent or submit.

It runs counter to the very notions of democracy, one voice for each person, not 12 voices for each government employee!

I don't really see any way to combat it, though. It would appear it is the end of the internet as we know it.

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas


I am not sure if this is just limited to the Bush administration since the rebuilding and modernization of the levies is an ongoing project as well as their maintenence.

Many parts of New Orleans are still in shambles and whole neighborhoods remain blighted and nearly abandoned yet to be rebuilt.

While the downtown, tourist areas and nice neighborhoods have more or less all been restored many of the poorer outlying areas are still a mess.

So I would think people living in them feel a lot of frustration as the forgotten or neglected ones, and are likely still quite critical of the core.

Was this just during the Bush years?

Not so sure about that.

Thanks for joining in my friend.

reply to post by incrediblelousminds


The easiest and perhaps the only way to combat it is to expose it and to cause the government even more of a credibility crisis in the process.

Eventually if you give someone enough rope they will hang themselves, and honestly I belief the use of this software by the government on the people of the United States to lie and manipulate them by creating a false majority on yet another medium is a hangable offence.

We just need to keep speaking out and exposing it, and challenging what independent media is still left to join in.

That's how Marine Core Major General Smedley Darlington Butler fought back against the smear campaign against him after he exposed the Elite in their aborted White House Coup attempt during the early Roosevelt years.

They used their big media outlets to label him disgruntled and making up stories and he travelled from town to town speaking to what ever group or newspaper that would listen and eventually got his side of the story out and his good name back.

Where there is a will there is a way.

What remains to be seen if Americans have any will in this regard.

Thanks my friend.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Very Ironic that you created this thread today Proto, as I believe I have just found out a sock puppet here on ATS. Not surprisingly this puppet was on a forum from a very specific date that's now almost a decade old.

I must add that I believe that no matter how far technology advances there will never be a true advancement in society until we are somehow able to overcome forms of corruption and greed.

To further add to that, currently technology may actually be detrimental to what most people yearn for which (I hope) is a peaceful, free, and open society that doesn't hold back anything that might otherwise inhibit us form achieving the aforementioned. Think what you may, but as I see things, it's one step forward and two steps back.

Peace and Respect,

AS

reply to post by AeonStorm


Our forefathers told us that the challenges to our freedoms and liberties would be many and varied, and that it would be largely up to us as citizens both collectively and individually to protect it.

While many people do look to the government with the expectation it protect our freedoms and liberties, clearly it has the opposite in mind.

Hence the one step forward in the American experiment in Government and the two steps back towards more totaltarian and repressive forms.

Now we have to run to get even.

The question is do we as a collective and individuals have the gumption and ingenuity to take the next step forward?

I want to believe we will and do, but it all starts with us all being honest about the true state of our Union.

Excellent post, thanks for sharing.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

It really is and when you see a dozen stars blossom on an outrageously ignornat post devoid of one fact or critical thought, laced primarily with personal deflection and attacks at some off hand hour of the wee hours in the pre-dawn time of day, and you know in your heart of hearts, no, there really aren't 12 people up and following this thread to star that post within the time you can refresh the page, you really do feel a certain sense of frustration in the face of it all.

I could not agree more. In fact I made that argument, (unsuccessfully) to SO.

Ive been on this board for a while now. Im certainly not a founding member, but I know how things normally go. And you are right. Even in the most popular threads the most popular posts do not blossom with multiple stars within minutes. It just doesnt work that way. But lately, like you said, one or two line posts with just idiocy in them will suddenly sprout 5,6 or more stars in no time flat. In a thread with maybe 2 or 3 active participants, in the middle of the night. As if a whole herd of people not participating in the thread are just waiting with bated breath for that next post and cant WAIT to star it.

Im glad I am not the only one who has noticed it. Its ridiculous.

america has cancer .... but i welcome a second opinion from any sock puppet monkeys who may be lurking

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

It really is and when you see a dozen stars blossom on an outrageously ignornat post devoid of one fact or critical thought, laced primarily with personal deflection and attacks at some off hand hour of the wee hours in the pre-dawn time of day, and you know in your heart of hearts, no, there really aren't 12 people up and following this thread to star that post within the time you can refresh the page, you really do feel a certain sense of frustration in the face of it all.

I could not agree more. In fact I made that argument, (unsuccessfully) to SO.

Ive been on this board for a while now. Im certainly not a founding member, but I know how things normally go. And you are right. Even in the most popular threads the most popular posts do not blossom with multiple stars within minutes. It just doesnt work that way. But lately, like you said, one or two line posts with just idiocy in them will suddenly sprout 5,6 or more stars in no time flat. In a thread with maybe 2 or 3 active participants, in the middle of the night. As if a whole herd of people not participating in the thread are just waiting with bated breath for that next post and cant WAIT to star it.

Im glad I am not the only one who has noticed it. Its ridiculous.

I am glad you touched on the one aspect concerning the site and I have to say while many have differing opinions I do feel sorry for the site, in that this software is almost impossible to detect through normal means because it does generate it's own IP addresses to game a system.

For a site like ATS it's truly bad for business, even more so because there really does not seem to be an easy way to combat it, and merely acknowledging it's likely existence can be viewed as a form of excuse for any member not winning a debate to claim that it's because of manipulation through software.

Often it's not, and I think you like and many people have a feel for when we are simply dealing with like minded posters joined together in common cause in opposition to our arguments and when real statistical anomolies and impossibilities are occuring.

However that doesn't mean everyone with a tough argument to sell can see the difference between the two.

Because the site prides itself on civil discourse and well moderated boards and excellently enforced terms of service it almost would run to the contrary of those goals to say, yeah there is some software out there that may slip through and there isn't much we can do about it.

I think ATS has to walk a fine line in that regard, and worries that acknowledging it openly is just going to lead to more posters getting angry when their arguments do fail to disuade and violating the terms of service.

I do though honestly believe if anyone could prove with real hard court of law quality evidence that a member of ATS is using this software that Skeptic Overlord and the Three Amigos would move and move quickly to ban them.

In the meantime I believe they want us to present our arguments just the same way as we were talking to one person or an RSS Feed pretending to be six people.