Jewish, Not Arab, Roots in Judea and Samaria

Originally posted by ender_shadow
reply to post by TheWalkingFox

 

I'm sorry, but you are mistaken. After the big Jewish revolt of 70AD, the Romans exiled many thousands of Jews... not several "priests"...

There was a second big revolt in 135 AD, that ended with the same results...

No, in fact I'm not mistaken at all. I realize that this fact of history runs directly counter to your nation's pseudo-religious propaganda of Palestine being almost completely emptied of all Jews in the Roman era, thus adding another "unforgivable wrong" that further justified the invasion of thousands and thousands of North Europeans who have no foreskins into the region, but it's just not so.

if nothing else, it would have been economically counterproductive to depopulate the region like that. People from the other portions of the empire certainly weren't falling over themselves to move into the region, and someone needed to do all the farming.

The source of your numbers is undoubtedly Josephus. However, one must consider the source here. Josephus was himself a Jew, who had gained Roman citizenship. The interesting thing here is, no matter where his loyalties lay - with his fellow Jews or with his fellow Romans - he would have strong incentive to exaggerate greatly. if the first, to make the "tragedy" seem even more tragic and horrible, if the second, to make the "victory" sound bigger and more magnificent.

Jews did not "invade" in 1929... Jews started returning in greater numbers to Israel in the beginning of the 1800's following a series of pogroms in easter Europe.

Generally when a bunch of people migrate from one chunk of territory to another, with the locals of the new place not wanting them there, it's termed an invasion. And that's exactly what this was, through the whole period. You can cook up whatever names and terms you want for it to make it sound fluffy and nice, but it was a large mass of unwelcome people barging into someone else's territory. That they were themselves persecuted doesn't really change this basic situation.

There was no "ethnic cleansing", that's just one more myth that needs to be put to rest...

Hate to break it to you, but when one ethnic group (say, Jews) uses their military power to massacre and drive another ethnic group (say, Arabs) from a territory (say, oh, Israel and the chunks of territory conquered in 1948, then 1967) that is ethnic cleansing.

Again, you can come up with all sorts of sweet-talk to make it sound like your "side" are harmless angels, but the fact of the situation is, Israel conducted a pogrom of their own in an attempt to eradicate the non-Jew from their territory. This situation is ongoing, as the state of Israel works to drive Arabs from Jerusalem and squeeze them from their land in the west Bank.

And there have always been Jews living in Israel ever since Roman times up until the founding of the modern state of Israel.

Yup, that was pretty much what I just told you. Rome did not exile a significant number of Jews, Ender. Like I said, someone's gotta grow all that wheat that Rome was exporting from the region. And sending a few hundred thousand people who just tried to overthrow your rule to all corners of your already fragile empire is... uh... stupid.

So we're back to where I started - there were lost of Jews left by the Romans. A large number of these folks would then convert to Christianity with the rest of Rome. Then they converted to Islam and spoke Arabic during Arab and Turkish rule. Their descendants are today known as "Palestinians," and they have more claim to that chunk of turf and rock than some dudes from Kiev or Prague ever will.

reply to post by backinblack


Because "Arabs" didn't exist as arabs, they were nomadic tribes that moved around the area of "Arabia"... and traded with various peoples along the silk road.

And until I have ironclad proof, it's always "most probably" - archeology can be interpreted in many different ways, unless you find hard evidence. So, since no one found a DVD that read "Abraham's greatest hits" I can't tell you anything for sure...

if you want hard evidence, then Jews were here 2,500 years ago... as they found evidence to that effect... but no one found Arabic writing in Israel dated to that time. (They found what is called "The Priests Blessing" on a rock in Sinai, dated to about 2,500 years ago if memory serves, and it was written in ancient Hebrew).

reply to post by ender_shadow


Israel has controlled the US for decades..
If you bothered to watch the USS Liberty you'd see it was at least prior to that..

There were supposed leaked Israeli documents post the Liberty incident..
The Israelis believed that if the US let them get away with that then they could pretty much do ANYTHING...

reply to post by ender_shadow

Because "Arabs" didn't exist as arabs, they were nomadic tribes that moved around the area of "Arabia"... and traded with various peoples along the silk road.

No one 'doesn't exist" they just had a different name or hadn't been labeled..

They were still there and obviously predate the Jews....

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


and the funny thing about good 'ol Josephus Flavious is that He Himself may be a fictional character.

many writings are of conflicting styles and content and with conflicting time stamps.

some believe that He was invented by writers of a later time period for the purposes of creating the myths of influence mainly for (of course) economic reasons.

later writers needed a "double agent" character for political reasons too.

______________

Ishmael's dad Abraham is buried in Hebron's old city.

There have been descendants of Ishmael (muslim) living in
the area since the beginning of time;
It's just that the jew's can't accept that
Ishmael was Abraham's eldest 1rst born, and the zionist's can't
get over the fact that Ishmael was born from a slave girl.
This fact should not determine the fate of Ishmael's descendants who
have lived in Palestine for generations in peace, till
the influx of Europeans bulldoze their olive orchards and homes.
The jews should READ their books :

Behold, I have blessed him (Ishmael), and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

Aside from power & politics, what it comes down to is that some
bigoted jews do not want to acknowledge that their elder brothers were
descendants of slaves.
btw, nothing democratic about that or about zionism.

______________



________________

reply to post by ender_shadow


From what I've read they never really truly stopped the settlement process. . Nor do they really plan to. It was just for PR

www.aolnews.com...

reply to post by gem_man

First, The Jewish claim to Israel rests on Judaism, and the fact that Judaism is a land centered religion. If you go through the Rabbinic writings, Like Mishna (100 BCE), or Talmud (200 CE) or Zohar (200 CE) or the Midrashim or later Rabbinic Commentators like Ibn Ezra, Saadia Gaon, etc, the singular concern, and their only desire is for the Jewish people to return to Israel, rebuild their temple and resume their service to G-d, with all their commandments.

What other religion on Earth has 2000 + years of verifiable history?

Very few modern Jews could trace the ancestry to an ancient Israelite

And wy do you say that? The Jews not only have writings that go back 3500 years, but they have the books i listed above, and writings throughout their exile in the diaspora, from Saadia Gaon (9th century in Baghdad) Rashi (11th century in provence), Maimonides (12 century in spain,morocco and Egypt) all the way down to the modern era. The Jews additionally have always had a presence in certain holy cities throughout the genrations in Israel. In Jerusalem, in Safed, Hebron, and Tiberias.

Additionally, since you know nothing about history, the elephantine papyrii dating back to the 6th century BCE make mention of a Jewish temple and a dispute betwen the Egyptian priests and the Jewish priests. Even back than hate for the Jews was present. Hecateus of Abdera (4th century BCE) attacks the Jews in his writings. AS does Manetho (3rd century BCE) a hundred years later, Apollonius Molon, diodorus sicilus, strabo of amasia, pompus trogus,lyimachus, Apion of Alexandria (40 CE) makes frequent virulent mention of the Jews in his writings, as do later Romana writers like Tacitus, Martial, Seneca, Horace.......And this of course doesnt include Philo or Josephus, both of whom give rich histories of the Jews.

The Jews thus have constant documentation in ancient non Jewish writings from 600 BCE (the elephantine paprii) all the way through to the modern era.

But why should they leave homes their families have lived in for generations because of their ethnicity

Um, it has already been fully documented (in Joan Peters "from time immemorial") that the majority of Arabs calling themselves Palestinians Illegally immigrated to Israel during the 20's, 30's and 40's from Syria, Lebanon, Eastern Palestine (Jordan), Iraq, the HedJaz, Egypt and North Africa. This is COMPLETELY documented from British and Syrian records. A syrian official is even on record saying that in 1933, 30,000 Hurani in one month immigrated to western Palestine.

Jews are NOT a race, it's a religion.

YES. You are partially right. But those Cohanim, Leviyim and many other Jews that trace their lineage back to the biblical Jews very much qualify as a "race". Also, this has been genetically ascertained.

www.simpletoremember.com...

But in any case, Since Judaism is the most ancient and consistent (in the sense of not having undergone myriad reformations, schisms etc) in the world, and since the Jews have been forribly removed from their land by the Romans (135 CE), and kept out by the Byzantine Christians, and later the various muslim rulers, and than briefly the crusaders, and than the ottomans, the British etc... 2000 years is a long time, but nonenthless, in every generation there stood a political obstacle to returning to their land. EVERY SINGLE GENERATION of Jews 3 times a day faced Jerusalem and prayed to G-d, and prayed to return and prayed for the former glory of their name and relationship with G-d. The Jews NEVER ceased, and the historical record justifies this, yearning to return to their land. Rabbinic writings abound with this. You cannot find one work which does not atleast make cursory mention of this.

Also, Judaism is a RELIGION. Meaning I could convert and seek my right to live in Israel, because Israel is the HOLY LAND, unlike other lands, for thousands of years treated differently by hundreds of millions because they were aware of the special sanctity and holiness of this region of the earth.

Israel is a land apportioned to the Jewish people. The Muslims can have the whole of North Africa and the vast bulk of the Middle East, Anatolia, Central Asia and the East Indies. All the Jews deserve, and are enttitled to, since their religion predates Islam by some 2000 years, is the land of Israel. A place for all Jews, RELIGIOUS, (meaning the majority of todays Jews are not fullfilling their duties) to serve in their capacity as priests to the nations. A Nation of Priests.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox

There is no difference between the Roman-era (or older!) occupants of the Levant, and the current "Arab" populations there. You see, the people living there now are the descendants of the people who were living there then.

Umm, actually. No. The Philistines were a "coastal" not an Arab people. They from Greece or Anatolia most likely.

And later on, since you arent aware of the history, MANY different peoples lived in the land of Palestine. Just to name a Few: Jews, Greeks, Turks, Circassians, Persians, Balkans, Germans, French were among many other "races" that lived in the Cosmpolitan Holy land. This was because Israel was the holy land, and many Christians migrated to live there among the Jews that already lived there.

So much for you "quibble".

There was as a matter of fact no mass diaspora during the Roman Era - a few hundred priests who had formulated a rebellion against Roman rule in Iudaea were exiled into slavery through the empire. The rest of the population remained right where it was. it was successively ruled by the Persians, the Byzantines, the Mongols, the Arabs again, the Turks, the Franks, the Turks again, then the British and now Israel.

Where do you get this history? First of all. The romans destroyed 985 towns and Villages throughout Judea and Samaria. 600,000 were killed, and thousands of others, the elite, were hunted down by the Romans (like Shimon Bar Yochai, author of the Zohar).

How is it you think in Mohommads time the Jews of Nadir or Qurayza, Qaynuqa got to be living in the Hedjaz, hich is outside the holy land? How did the Jews of Yemen get where they did? Or the Jews of Iraq? OR Egypt? Or Morocco? And if you think these people were converts, you are a complete moron. It was a liability bwing a Jew in a Muslim land. Who in their right mind would convert to Judaism, and face death mandated by Shari'a Law for any muslim that apostasizes from Islam? These were the descendants of the Jews of Biblical times. They MIGRATED.

Same thing with the Jews of Turkey, Iran, Caucusus, Russia, Eastern Europe and Western Europe. Not many were converts because again it would be INSANE, or at the very least very rare, for a Christian or a Muslim to leave the dominant religion to convert to what Judah HaLevi called "the despised religion". This was the basic attitude of Christians and Muslims towards Judaism.

reply to post by dontreally

And wy do you say that? The Jews not only have writings that go back 3500 years,

What's 3500 years in that part of the world. Nothing...

Others predate the Jews in that area but you just wont accept the fact...

reply to post by dontreally


we know of many religions with a 2500+ year timestamp.

many seem to be "concieved" or "brought into the times" around that era, that is according to modern sources possibly tainted.


Confucius

Taoism

Buddha

Hinduism (3rd largest religion)


to name a few that are NOT of Middle Eastern in origin !


the whole problem is that each and every religion has been "proclaimed" by the believers or writers.

over time, each has been revised, edited, re-translated, etc, to fit a current political and social environment and economics.

its no different than believing the Fox's inventory of the henhouse after a fire !!!

racial DNA has many common genes mixed in with various ethnic groups .... many by religious common ground.


the Hebrew language itself has many similarities to Hindu !

the Hebrew calendar is very similar if not based on the ancient Chinese calendar !

the Hebrew alphabet is very similar to the Phoenician script symbols !

all similarities pre-date Hebrew going all the way back to Akkadian almost 5000 years ago !

no positive proof exists as to when the current versions of any religion were originally established as each is all by self-proclomation.

more than likely, all modern religions have been invented by powerful merchant trade groups that actually had control of multi-national commerce routes and governments as far back as 7000 years. The Phoenicians as they are called today, were the most powerful and had no genuine base of operations, but had full control of commerce around the entire known world.

reply to post by mayabong


Actually, what you heard isn't true. I have a friend who works with me, and he was about to start building a house in a place that's beyond the "green line", (even though it's in an area where there's nothing), and when the freeze came in, he couldn't do squat with his building permit...

What happened was that the government provided restitution to those who were affected, but it was true, there was a full freeze for those 9 months.

reply to post by ender_shadow

What happened was that the government provided restitution to those who were affected, but it was true, there was a full freeze for those 9 months.

Mate, there WAS settlements being built during that "so called" freeze...

Maybe your mates plans were not far enough along..

reply to post by backinblack


Trust me, they were... he had bulldozers ready to start leveling the area... (before the freeze we used to make fun of him because of all the planning and running around)

I guess what you refer to as building were things that were nearing completion and it was very few... all in all, despite what you might think the freeze was pretty all encompassing...

reply to post by dontreally


So I can convert to Judiasm and be a citizen of Israel if I wanted?

reply to post by mayabong


You wouldn't want to convert, trust me, it ain't easy... from what I know about conversion to Judaism, there are the two kinds, the orthodox one and the reform one... the orthodox Jews don't really recognize the reform and blah blah... you have to go through tests, and live a certain way... much more difficult than other religions as far as I know...

But Israel has a law that any Jew can receive a citizenship... it's called "Hok Ha'Shvut" (roughly translated as "Law of Return" and it grants any Jew that comes to live in Israel citizenship.

reply to post by ender_shadow


You just don't want me there i see how it is.

reply to post by mayabong


That's it... you got me!

reply to post by ender_shadow


Actually, the two kinds are more like real Judaism (otherwise known as Orthodox Judaism) and a made up Judaism that makes life more convenient and gentile like. Such Jews have adopted the Christian custom of separating belief in G-d from ordinary secular life.... therebye watering down the meaningfulness of their relationship with G-d.

And its also well known that reform Judaism which burst forth in the 19th century was a consequence of the earlier Sabbatean (17th century) and Frankist (18th century) heresies and most of reform Judaisms leaders were themsleves followers of Sabbatai Tzvi...

Thats the secret history behind the Haskalah..well known to educated Jews. The labor movement in Israel, which you yourself appear to be a victim of (unfortunately) have been systematically dejudaizing the religious Jews the immigrated there. It began with the early settlers from eastern europe, and than the sephardim (most of whom were religious) who fled muslim countries after the '48 war. They prevented these Jews from making a living in Israel unless they enrolled their kids in secular schools and disallowing them from maintaining any of their religious habits (3 prayers a day, peyot, religious garb etc).

I gotta say, there is nothing more deranged and downright twisted than antisemitic Jews. Take this comment from Shulamit Aloni:

" "We are a nefarious people. What we are doing in the West Bank is worse than all the pogroms done to the Jews."

Im not even Jewish and im astounded and repulsed that a Jew could make such an exageratted and self hating statement about her own people; and to boot, the Jews already deal with enough lies told about them. Its leftist, twisted Jews like this which invite hatred/criticism from the nations.

Just a few days ago some radical leftists in Israel declared a Palestinian state.

This is how MK Michael Ben-Ari put it "These are mentally ill people who hug the murderers of our children".

Though im sure youve heard all this before.

reply to post by dontreally


I'm glad some people in Israel truly want peace and would like to make a state for the Palestenians, instead of saying you want peace and expanding your borders. Tons of countries already recognize their borders. Eventually it will just be Israel and America trying to say this isn't a good idea.