Jewish, Not Arab, Roots in Judea and Samaria

reply to post by ender_shadow

Hello, ender shadow.

I hope you don't take offense to me pointing this out, but:

Originally posted by ender_shadow
First of all, in case you were not aware, I am Israeli, I was born in Israel, and therefore I have a unique perspective, as I see things "on the ground" so to speak...

Could just as easily also be interpreted to saying "I have a bias in favour of Israel". Do you believe you would have the same opinion if you were born a Palestinian muslim or christian? Or a neutral party in some unrelated country (Argentina, perhaps)?

Originally posted by ender_shadow
The US doesn't really fund Israel, it is true that the US provides Israel with 3Billion$ in aid every year, but this aid has to be spent on US products and companies (I know since I had to spend those dollars myself while in the army), also, that aid prevents Israel from selling arms to other countries (for example, Israel developed it's own fighter jet in the late 80's but American pressure killed it...)

The US provides Israel with $3 billion in mostly MILITARY aid (I believe), which Israel uses to purchase US military equipment, weapons, vehicles, etc. Have you noticed the US's habit of propping up dictatorships and oppressive regimes? Other recipients of large amounts of military aid from the US are/were Egypt (the largest after Israel) and Pakistan (the largest after that?)
I believe this is what mayabong meant when s/he said he with the US didn't provide this funding.

Originally posted by ender_shadow
Now, do you accept the fact that Jews have been living here for more than 2000 years, and have never left? that's an important fact... and needs to be addressed, since the "Palestinians" claim there wasn't even a Jewish temple in Jerusalem, and if you negotiate someone who ignores your history, how much can you trust them to keep a peace agreement with you?!

It is absolutely correct that SOME jews have been living there for a very long time (heck, I think one of mass "returns" to Jerusalem was under the muslims some time in the middle ages). However, does this give a right to ALL jews to that land, especially (and this is the important part) with greater priority than muslims who were already living there?
You make an interesting and relevant point about ignoring history, and I don't know if you realised the full implications of it. You said: "if you negotiate someone who ignores your history, how much can you trust them to keep a peace agreement with you?!"

Now consider this in the perspective of the OP, who seems to be going on a rampage trying to deny the existence of a Palestinian people in the Middle East! "You don't exist, it was always us here, thus it is okay for us to ignore you".

reply to post by dontreally


And the aborigines were here before me but there's no way they're taking my home..

Mind you, haw many Israelis can actually trace their family back to the homeland?
How many none jews could probably do the same?

reply to post by babloyi


Hi Babloyi,

First of all, I've already written in other posts that I tend to biased towards the Israeli side being Israeli and see what I see... but I did say that if I am mistaken, and clearly shown that, I own up to my errors. That's the whole idea of keeping an open mind (I don't see the other side holding to the same way of thinking for the most part).
Also, people from outside only see things from the prism of what is brought to them, and that is heavily, heavily biased (depending on what you read), and there are numerous examples... (BTW, just as a side note, a "Palestinian Christian" would much rather live under Israeli rule then muslim rule, Bethlehem is draining from Christians and look at Egypt... the Cuptic there are suffering, the same in Iraq - but that is a religious thing, and I tend to steer clear of religion)

This "aid" didn't start until a long time after Israel was founded... actually until after 1967, Israel's bigger ally was the French... and most of the Israeli army had French planes (Mister, Super-Mister and such) the armor corps was a different matter, it had a combination of British, US and other tanks... so, Israel wasn't propped up by the US money... I understood speeach's point as saying the US is spending money on Israel, money that should be spent on US citizens as well, and the fact that Israel is required to spend that money IN the US states that it actually does come back to them (Genius on their part I think..)

I agree with your point, but historically, there was no "Palestinian" people... the Palestinians (if you look at their last names, which in the Arab culture denote your tribe or place of origin) came from all over the area... so his point is valid historically... and while I deny the existence of the "Palestinian" people (since "Palestine" was a made up name by the Romans...), I already wrote in other posts that if they decided they are a people, so be it... Israel has already agreed to a Palestinian state (several times) and each time was met with war:

1) 1947 - the partition agreement
2) 1967 - Israel wanted to negotiate, the Arab world said the three "no's"
3) 1999 - Barak basically gave everything
4) 2008 - Olmert did the same..

I mean, I don't have a problem with the Palestinians having a state of their own, most Israelis already support this (actually, it goes to show you how much it turned in Israel, since when I was growing up it was unthinkable... and now the vast majority supports them having their own state - can someone check their opinion?), it's the other side that doesn't recognize OUR right to live here as well... this being my main point.

Actually, some of their speakers are on record that there was no Jewish temple in Jerusalem, so you tell me, can I sign a peace deal with these people?!

reply to post by ender_shadow


Israel doesn't do false flags? two of the most famous are probably the Lavon Affair and the USS liberty. If there was any doubt that the Lavon Affair happened, Israel actually gave the men awards a few years ago. What a great Ally.

Yes and there was the Israeli's arrested on 911 but I won't turn this into a 911 thread.

911missinglinks.com is a pretty good start.

Truth is noone trusts what Isarel says. They will always turn it around to being the victim even though most of the time the are the aggressor.

Yes Jews and Arabs were living there before in peace. My question to you is what changed?

reply to post by mayabong


I agree to you that the Lavon affair was one such operation, which failed miserably, as for the Liberty issue, I honestly don't know enough about it to comment, but ask I asked another user, what would be the point of attacking the liberty?

The 4 guys that were arrested on 9/11, well... I heard about that, they even interviewed those idiots, but from there to leap to conspiracy, well... like you said, this is not a 9/11 thread...

Jews and Arabs didn't usually get along very well here, look up the 1929 massacare in Hebron where the Arabs murdered Jews they lived with for centuries (actually, some Arabs saved their Jewish neighbors, but most murdered them...) there were other cases before that.

reply to post by ender_shadow


You can also mention the 1929 Safed massacre. Or the 1936-1939 Arab Revolts that left hundreds of Jews dead throughout Israel. Or the Jaffa Riots of 1921. Or much earlier in 1834, the "Safed Plunder" that left 500 Jews dead, their women raped (which according to Islamic belief, prevents virgins from entering heaven) and property stolen.

If liberals knew ANYTHING at all about Islam they would understand that Arabs reject Israel not because of the made up myth of them "stealing their land", but because of the INTRINSIC principle in Islamic jurprudence, that the middle east and all lands with a majority muslim population is known as DAR AL ISLAM. Look up the concept. Irt meas the "house of Islam". Islam seriously desires to take over the world. Islamic scholars constantly mention that ublike Judaism and Christianity, Islam is a militant religion. Its job and singular purpose is to conquer the world for Allah, and convert all people. If they reject the message of Islam, and reject Mohommad his only prophet, they reject the truth. Thus they earn nothing less then Dhimmitude (and this is hellish enough) or death.

There is NO moderate Islam. There is not a single 'moderate' islamic nation on Earth. Shari'a law is not moderate, so why should Muslims be moderate? Its all propaganda this idea of peaceful muslims and im not saying that thinking that peacefu muslims dont exist. They do, of course. But their peaceful, and congenial minly towards other Muslims. Muslims scholars and jurists emphasize throughout their writings echoing the statement of mohommad in the Quran that a Muslim is not to make friends with Infidels, who mock their religion.

If we know any moderate Muslims, its because theyre westernized.

In summation, Arabs and especially Palestinians will NEVER make peace with Israel until she is completely obliterated, and the Jews "thrown into the sea" as Egypt threatened back in the '48. Israel happens to be in Dar al Islam, and the sheer presence of her, with Dhimmi Jews governing themselves in the face of Islam - an Islam that believes itself to have a world historical mission - is an Insult to Muslims.

Originally posted by ender_shadow
reply to post by mayabong

 

I agree to you that the Lavon affair was one such operation, which failed miserably, as for the Liberty issue, I honestly don't know enough about it to comment, but ask I asked another user, what would be the point of attacking the liberty?

The 4 guys that were arrested on 9/11, well... I heard about that, they even interviewed those idiots, but from there to leap to conspiracy, well... like you said, this is not a 9/11 thread...

Jews and Arabs didn't usually get along very well here, look up the 1929 massacare in Hebron where the Arabs murdered Jews they lived with for centuries (actually, some Arabs saved their Jewish neighbors, but most murdered them...) there were other cases before that.

Just cause Israel was created in the 40's doesn't mean there wasn't zionists there mixing things up before then. Seems like right when they started arriving thats when things went crazy. Was it because of the Arabs religion or was it because of the actions of the jews. Again, so very easy to just blame a religion and not take responsibility for your actions. Cause and effect.

who actually was there first ?

civilizations existed in that region long before "Arabs" and "Jews".

and when exactly did the "Hebrew" language and religion begin and what was there before that ?

Mesopotamian and Sumerian (NOT Sameria) societies existed thousands of years before Judea I think and had no references to "Hebrew" religion and Sumer's languages were Semitic and were nearby present day Israel.

If we cite and believe "Biblical" references, then we must consider WHO exactly may have wrote those references and more importantly, WHEN.

Phoenician / Canaan had Semitic languages pre-dating Hebrew.


en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by phishyblankwaters

 

rewritting history based on biblical claims is not the answer, for either side.

HUH?

Firstly, this thread is about the Jewish claim to the so-called westbank.

Secondly, Jerusalem has had since Ottoman times a Jewish majority. And Jerusalem (the old city) is in the westbank.

Lastly, those towns with Biblically derived names in the westbank are ARAB towns. Theres no 'rewriting' of history, since these names go back to Biblical times. The names didnt change because after the Roman expulsion of the Jews from these towns in Israel and after the Muslim conquests of Palestine in the 8th Century CE the Arabs simply translated the existing biblical place names into the Arabic language, which is what we have today. Where you get "rewriting" history from is beyond me.

So, what does this mean, even if it's true? If my ancestors were Danish, does that mean I now have the right to go to Denmark, throw people out of their homes and claim the land as mine?

By the same token, the Native American Indians can reclaim all the land and buildings in the US and indiscriminately kill all non-native Americans?

It's a total nonsense.

The Arabs fought the Jews and they lost, so the Jews say get over it. The Romans beat the Jews, for some reason they never got over that.

reply to post by mayabong


Actually the Jews living in Hebron lived there for centuries... and weren't zionists... Just so you'd understand, the religious Jews objected to Zionism because to them, the redemption of the Jewish people in Israel can only come from the Massiah (or something along those lines). That's why you have those insane Jews who go to Iran and call for the destruction of Israel. Their name is "Neturey Karta" which in Aramaic means "keepers of the city". They don't speak Hebrew, but Iddish, they live in Jerusalem, but do not pay taxes or use the benefits... they are a closed society inside Jerusalem (and are viewed as crazy by other religious Jews as well...) and they are a good example of how Zionism was viewed by most Jews in its day.

Now, Arabs and Jews could get along in some periods of history, people might mention the "golden era" of the arabs, however, Jews were considered "Dimi" then... which is 2nd class citizens, and even then, there were attacks against them (due to religious reasons - much like Europe)... basically, Jews were prosecuted way before Zionism, it just became a different excuse now... before it was "Jews drink the blood of christian kids" after zionism it was "Jews are murdering/butchering/raping/pillaging etc 'ancient' arab land"...

And we are in negotiations with the arabs, if you haven't noticed, Israel froze settlements for 9 months (BTW NO PM has ever done that before...) and still they wouldn't negotiate... and when those 9 months were up... Abu Mazen threatened that unless Israel freezes settlements we can't negotiate... come on...

Originally posted by ender_shadow
reply to post by RizeorDie

 

.

Also, if you look at genetics, you will see that all Jews belong to the same "group", and we are close to the Arabs, but still different enough... The Arabs belong to tribes that roamed the Arabian desert (hence the name)...

Actually, there are genetic diseases that almost affect "Ashkenazi" Jews (like "Tay–Sachs" for example).

Ashkanazi Jews are Eastern European converts from the Khazar race so it would not surprise anyone that they share the same genetic diseases.

reply to post by gem_man


Not all... I can trace my family to Jews that were living in Spain until they were thrown out in 1492... and I am a carrier of Tay-Sachs... (thankfully my wife's family is not Ashkenazi so our kids might be carriers, but that's all)

And here's a study about Jewish genetics and the Khazar's... www.pnas.org...

It's a little long, but the outcome is that only 6-8% or so of "Ashkenazi" Jews have any common DNA with the Khazar Jews..

Shouldn't this thread be in the "ancient history" forum ??

I see NO relevance to the Middle East today whatsoever..

reply to post by backinblack


This thread deals with Jewish vs. Arab roots in the area called Judea and Samaria, which is in Israel, which is in the M.E. what's not relevant here?

the thread about Israel selling armaments to Argentina is less relevant in my humble opinion...

reply to post by ender_shadow


it is good that you mention the Neturei Karta since many people outside of Israel have barely heard of them !!

the Zionist MSM keeps a tight lid on any "Jewish" organizations that oppose Zionism in whole or in any part.

some info here en.wikipedia.org...

and some refs to Palestine and Iran here en.wikipedia.org...


perhaps they have approached Iran because Mahmoud Ahmedinejad has Jewish roots !


www.israelnationalnews.com...


as do the Saudis


www.fourwinds10.com...


also makes people wonder if many "Arab" leaders are cloaked Zionists ?

reply to post by xuenchen


To my knowledge Israel doesn't really hide them... everybody knows about them here... especially those who live in Jerusalem (since these guys are real trouble makers... they beat up women who don't dress "modestly" enough and that kind of crap)... and we kind of treat them like the crazy cousin... Thank you for the compliment though, I try

I've heard the theory that he's Jewish (The Iranian pres.), I think it would be funny, he's so crazy that he's actually better for us, since everyone recognizes he's crazy enough to do something insane like use nukes if he ever gets them - I'm not sure about the Saudi's... let's just say, that for me at least, it's a reach to claim that - at least without more proof... I also read somewhere that Muhammad had Jewish roots...

Originally posted by ender_shadow
reply to post by backinblack

 

This thread deals with Jewish vs. Arab roots in the area called Judea and Samaria, which is in Israel, which is in the M.E. what's not relevant here?
the thread about Israel selling armaments to Argentina is less relevant in my humble opinion...

Because that is ancient history..
It should bear no relevance in the current ME..

It's like discussing Aborigine history or Native American history..
Odd no one seems to bring that up..

Only the Jews, always the Jews..

reply to post by dontreally


Since you're such a history buff you should know that there were folks living in the "West Bank" other then what we might term as "Hebrews" Are these people to be dis-infranchised? The Jewish religion today is a mere shadow of the religion practised by say, Solomon, who seemed to worship "other" gods. No one has the right to go to the home of their remote ancesters and claim ownership of the land NO ONE!

Very few modern Jews could trace the ancestry to an ancient Israelite. This alone diffuses your argument. What if a group calling themselves "Canaanites" suddenly showed up and asked the Israelis to leave THEIR land? Would you be willing to pack up and leave? After all it was their land before being invaded by the Army of Joshua.
Yeah, I know, let the Arabs go to Jordan because most of the residents of Jordan are Palestinians. But why should they leave homes their families have lived in for generations because of their ethnicity? BUT suppose this DID happen. Would it then be alright to insist all Jews worldwide divest and move to Israel? You know, "You have your homeland in Israel, go to it"?

Jews are NOT a race, it's a religion.

reply to post by gem_man


My friend, you completely ignored my post to you Jews are a race mainly because they were isolated due to their religion... cases of mass additions of populations into Judaism are very few...

Jews have been proving to be a single genetic group, as far back as 2007 - here are a couple links:

‏- Nebel, Almut; Dvora Filon, Bernd Brinkmann, Partha P. Majumder, Marina Faerman, and Ariella Oppenheim (November 2001). "The Y Chromosome Pool of Jews as Part of the Genetic Landscape of the Middle East". The American Journal of Human Genetics 69 (5): 1095–112.
- www.pnas.org...

Actually, there are the "Samaritans" that live in Samaria, and one other city in Israel, they are a small community... and they are not mistreated in any way...

Actually, your argument about Jews coming to Israel is a valid one, it's the choice of each country, and I assure you that Israel would welcome them here, and has even called for French Jews to come following a rise in attacks on them in France.
However, I think you would be hard pressed to find a Jewish presence in any country where the Jews actively call for the destruction of that host country and were actively involved in attacks against its population...