EAT THE RICH, why taxation can't fix the US economy

Hey Prox

ARRRRGGGGGG. I know, you suggested we skip to 2.20 but I watched the whole thing. You also suggest we put aside Mr Wittle's bias. Sorry, couldn't do it.

As he lays out eh issue, the idea of taking all of the riches and profits and on and on is ludicrous. But rather than offering any real solutions, Mr. Wittle seems only to be able to take issue with Michael Moore. This lowers his credibility in my opinion because Moore is such an easy target. He makes himself so. Like ducks in a bucket.

Just a bit more about Mr. Wittle. He is extremely pejorative. And to be pejorative myself, his smarmyness is difficult to overcome. His delivery is one of "I'm so smart because I have figured this out and have all of the tees crossed and the i's dotted. I don't know, but I think I don't like him as much as I don't like Moore.

The point though is the economy, not self serving myopic defenders of their own economic positions. (unless of course we understand this to be the basis OF our economic system, in which case?)

The suggestion of all the money that is being held by the rich. We can agree that just taking it is not going to help anything. The true point as I see it is that they are not investing their money at a rate which will improve the general welfare. I don't say "fix" the general welfare, I mean improve the general welfare.

Now an argument can be made that they are investing overseas and that the general welfare of the whole world will be improved through this investment even though the general welfare of the US will suffer. I will not argue this at all. At this point in time that argument can not be won, in either direction.

The wealth is there. Wealth generated by the ingenuity and labor. The laborers keep on laboring, for their own survival and at the same time the survival of this system by offering what they have, labor. The ingenuity though is what has stalled. The wealth in the hands of the elite is just, just, sitting, or being invested in schemes to create more wealth. It is being used to propagate existing avenues of economic existence. Lets build another factory in Indonesia to manufacture another species of beenie baby. Coarse, I know. This money would be well spent in finding new ways to generate wealth for all, not just a few.

The raft is falling apart at the edges. The solution is not to move to the center of the raft but to find new ways of making the raft larger.

It is easy to understand why so many people here believe that the rich, the elites are getting ready to bug out. They've got all of this wealth and do so little of value with it. They just consume. No no, They consume expensively.

How can anyone play football when the ball boy, the boy in charge of holding the footballs keeps them all locked up in a closet and won't tell anyone where the key is. People are just going to want to kick in the closet.

And finally as to Mr Wittle, you just keep moving as close to the center of the raft as you can boy, that's what you're good at. Just look out for the big boys already there, cuz they'll toss you off in a second if it suits them.

Originally posted by TerryMcGuire

The raft is falling apart at the edges. The solution is not to move to the center of the raft but to find new ways of making the raft larger.

Excellent post.

Yes, Make America into a rich friendly country.
We could easily beat The Riviera as a place where
wealth is treated with welcome and respect.
But for some reason the media keeps
going the other way.


David Grouchy

reply to post by TerryMcGuire


Taxing corporations is a non starter, we already have the highest tax rate for corporations in the industrialized world, in fact many corporations are leaving the country to escape our taxes. A strong argument could actually be made that reducing the corporate taxes would increase overall revenue.

As far as taxing the super wealthy at a much higher rate fine, I don't really have a big problem with that, but don't expect it to make much of a dent, 100 billion at the absolute most. That is a little more than 5% of the 2 trillion deficit we are likely to run this year.

Taxing the moderately wealthy is very likely to have a negative effect overall since they are the job creators, and will only look to expand if there is money to be made - why would they make the effort if it will all just be taxed away?

The point everyone should get is spending must be cut - there is no way it cannot be. The states and the US governments borrowing limits are here - and they have no way to raise money through increases in revenue without making the situation considerably worse in the very short term as this video clearly demonstrates.

reply to post by Rockpuck


That's adorable how you indirectly called me stupid. Just come out and directly say I'm stupid, it would save everybody valuable time.

Anyways, in response to your rebuttal, those loopholes that these transnational corporations have effectively lobbied for themselves in the good old US of A., has enabled them to transfer any domestic profits overseas, thereby avoiding the scary taxman. So your argument that certain corporations have nothing to tax is false. Not to mention, I'm pretty sure GE was one of the largest recipients of TARP/bailout funds, so my prior statement ("if you fail, you get liquidated") still holds weight, which should have happened to your shining failure of an example known as GE, so this shouldn't even be under discussion.

P.S. I didn't need to take my Intro to Business, Micro and Macro Economics courses (@ a local community college might I add) to learn that if a company can't support itself in a capitalist economy, then it ceases to do business in said economy. In addition, personal attacks don't give any more validity to someone's points, it only suggests an inability for intelligent debate. But I'm gonna go work on educating myself, cheerio!

reply to post by Super Katsurio


Yes there are loopholes to hide profits and loopholes should be targeted, not actually raising the tax rates which would have a far more detrimental impact on smaller corporations. You still fail to show you know anything about which you're talking of.

reply to post by proximo

Taxing corporations is a non starter, we already have the highest tax rate for corporations in the industrialized world, in fact many corporations are leaving the country to escape our taxes. A strong argument could actually be made that reducing the corporate taxes would increase overall revenue.

Agreed. But you will find that a number of corporations pay NO taxes through loopholes and the like. And they do leave the country to avoid tax like you say. And indeed the argument IS made, not only made but trumpeted loudly that reducing taxes would help the gdp, though I wonder as the corporate taxes used to be higher and the lowering of them has found us where we are now.

As far as taxing the super wealthy at a much higher rate fine, I don't really have a big problem with that, but don't expect it to make much of a dent, 100 billion at the absolute most. That is a little more than 5% of the 2 trillion deficit we are likely to run this year.

Me either. Taxing them might teach them a little frugality. They might be able to come to understand that they are the victors in this rigged ponzi scheme and that giving back a bit more might make every one a little happier. But as you say economically I don't believe it will help much.

Taxing the moderately wealthy is very likely to have a negative effect overall since they are the job creators, and will only look to expand if there is money to be made - why would they make the effort if it will all just be taxed away?

Here I think we are talking about the moderate to small business owner. Absolutely. I like the idea of taxation according to hiring. Tax breaks for finding ways to expand and hire more workers. Probably to simple but I was never much for solutions. But I guess others aren't either as we can tell by the cul-de-sac in which we find ourselves.

The point everyone should get is spending must be cut - there is no way it cannot be. The states and the US governments borrowing limits are here - and they have no way to raise money through increases in revenue without making the situation considerably worse in the very short term as this video clearly demonstrates.

So Prox, here is where we are.

We basically know who is in charge. Not you or me that is for sure. The ones in charge are the ones with the money. They are not tossing it around to alleviate our national problems. They, it seems to me are moving on to greener pastures leaving the rest of us to fight among ourselves, as exemplified by the battles between Republican governors and state workers and citizens we see going on all around us.

The short term you speak of is now. Union workers and non union workers have been taking it in the shorts for decades. Concessions and rollbacks. Pay cuts and freezes. You know the stats on all of this as well as me. Social welfare spending has been pillaged by the government also for decades. So much of Johnson's Great Society programs have been dumped ages ago. Yet the rich keep getting richer, the very rich that is.

What I think the United States needs is some in depth perspective. Perspective that we will not want to hear.

For instance, in the 1920's with the advent of automation and assembly lines, the means of producing goods quickly outstripped the demand FOR thos goods. So the manufacturers found a way to increase demand. They turned to the young students of psychology and had them use their knowledge of human behavior to manipulate people into wanting the product. If people were content to live with their parents and get married and have children in one house then they only needed one refridgerator. Teach them that they need their own home and you can sell two fridges.

Change the cars looks and tie those looks in with a false sense of status and people will need new cars.
This was not accidental The manufacturing class turned American citizens into consumers. This was not accidental. It was planned. And it was executed brilliantly. We now have a population of people who buy beenie babies and pokeman dolls and believe that it is their own idea. That these toys can be kept for a decade or two and then sold at a profit. What a load of hogwash. The American public has been turned into a Pavlovian Puppet. Tell me Prox. Do we want to hear this? Hell no.

So here we are, left dangling with the broken strings of the puppet masters falling about our heads as we squabble over what to do next. Vote for Bozo, yeah that's the ticket.

Our short term is very very grim. And grimmer still it will be. For me our only hope, on this planet anyway is to find out how much of who we think we are is really the result of decades and more of conditioning and having our baser instincts catered to by those who would use our innocence and gullibility for their own selfish ends.

Dude, ya got me going here. Sorry I could not keep it on short term economics. It's just that for me our future lies not in finding a way to survive in the rich mans economic system as much as finding our own way of interacting with one another apart from it.

reply to post by Rockpuck


What's with the strawman fallacy? You're attacking the idea of raising taxes, when I have said nothing of the sort. Why don't you address my actual arguments rather than making up arguments to attack. If you don't understand anything that I've previously stated, then feel free to ask, because I know precisely what I have been talking about, yet you do not.

Oh my god, how cynic is that? Leave the poor rich people alone, that steal and let the money work for them. They have Billions and billions stolen from everyone, especially the employed and the consumers.

As slave, you can do two things if you get free, free the other slaves or get a slave holder. I only know the latter. Can't believe what I read here, really!

Originally posted by davidgrouchy

Originally posted by SprocketUK

The rich need to be made to pay a decent share of what they take out of society's coffers.

You realize that America is one of the last countries left
where a rich person can go to feel safe.
All you are doing is advocating
the extinction of rich.

Huang Guangyu, China's richest man, disappears amid corruption investigation

This after about 14-20 years in jail.

Quit hattin on the rich.
It's a cheap tactic,
and Americans keep falling for it over and over.

David Grouchy

Guess how much percentage of the GDP the rich 20% of our planet controls... over 82%.

The rest of us? Less than 18%.

The power elite of our world are responsible for damn near every major war fought in recent history, they are also responsible for the national debt, as pointed out in the OP.

I declare war on the globalists - and time is running out if we do not all do so soon, we're all ###ked...

And yet no one in this thread seems to have made the connection that taxation is theft...you want to punish the rich because they steal from the people yet you are OK with the govt doing it by force?

This is why we, as a society, wont be improving any time soon. The general public are so entrenched in this system that they cant see past what they have been taught. The rich are blamed on wars, yet it is governments that are the enablers. The rich couldnt just attack others without the legitimacy of govt to do so (and they couldnt steal from you to manufacture weapons without the legitimacy of taxation)

Cut back on taxation, cut back on govt and entitlements, and allow companies to fail if they take on too much risk (the mechanism of failure is wonderful, it forces speculators to get burned and moves the capital left over into more productive hands!). Any other way is just window dressing or a distraction.

reply to post by davidgrouchy


Didn't even have to watch that Chris Rock segment, I know it nearly word for word.
Talk about breaking it down so that any single individual can understand.

"They spinnin' nigga, they spinnin'"!!!!

reply to post by zvezdar


What is the point of saying taxation is theft? It is a civic duty, and more so it is a state right dating back to the start of all nations. Saying taxation is theft is ignorant at best and morally bankrupt at worst.

Without taxation nothing you enjoy from the state would exist. You would not have any streets, security, or any benefits of modern society.

No one likes paying taxes, and I can understand that, but be honest and say you simply dislike paying taxes.

As for the rest of this post, I am tired of hearing everyone cheerleading for the wealthy. Can they not do it themselves? While, I do think our tax code needs to be heavily overhauled; I do believe that the wealthy in America need to pay more taxes.

Our taxes pay to secure that wealth. I would like to see billionaires protect their wealth without our state provided protections. If they had to hold all that wealth in a gold vault, and secure it themselves, I'd imagine they would have die.

Finally, taxation can help level the playing field. To protect any type of democracy all citizens need to have any equal say, and even the SCOTUS will say that money is a type of speech. Without taxatioin to help the poor start over, say when their business fails (through bankruptcy, and yes that is a social safety net like welfare), or simply through poor circumstances citizens could never come back and would lose most of their rights de facto.

Our nation needs a progressive tax, just as any state does, to ensure that all citizens can afford to take risks. If we want a system where no one pays taxes we can go back to Feudalism. That way we don't need to worry about risk since we'd be an agrarian based society, and the few who protected the state (through the sword) can be our landlords.

reply to post by Anon404


You sound like a Fascist. :/

2nd