Chinese think tank says Christianity is what made the West successful.

Originally posted by troubleshooter

I did not say that...
...I am a historian and simply presented facts about China's relationship with Christianity...
...Christianity has not been involved in the politics or economic success of China.
Christianity was definitely a major factor in the rise and success of the West...
...you can not discount this if you know western history at all.

What did you mean by this then?

Is it coincidental that as Christianity is in decline in the West...
...that its economic strength and innovation is also in decline?

Sure, Christianity was a large factor in Western history, but more so in conquering than in terms of real social and political change, and the Enlightenment era gave humanity alot more breathing room to work with for the next 200-ish years, which I believe gave rise to the Western world we see today, above all else, secular in nature.

reply to post by FriedrichNeecher

You wanna run that by me one more time?

thanks

reply to post by Stormdancer777

As I asked, what do you have against Chinese Christians?

I have absolutely nothing against them. In fact, I feel sorry for them.

I feel sorry for any Country that has had to put up with missionaries scaring them into converting to Christianity.

ALL the Semitic religions, Islam/Christianity/Judaism, need to go away.

Originally posted by Stormdancer777

Originally posted by hippomchippo

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
reply to post by inforeal

 

We all know what happened in the past, and we need to take into consideration the mindset of the people during that point in human history,

One needs to acknowledge the strides and reforms Christianity has taken to improve, we all need to grow up.

Christianity did not improve itself, the people forced it to change with the times.

I think in many ways, both were responsible, from all the ancient history I have read on the subject,

But the lack by some to even give an inch when it comes to Christians, speaks volumes.

As I asked, what do you have against Chinese Christians ?

I have nothing against Chinese Christians, I have something against claiming economic glory for a religion based on the economic policies of a nation.

And on a personal level, go ahead and worship whatever crazy you god you want, just keep it out of our schools and keep it to yourself, that's all I would ask for.

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
reply to post by FriedrichNeecher

 

You wanna run that by me one more time?

thanks

If you provide your reason for not accepting the obvious in what I claim, which is that heretics cannot accurately represent orthodoxy b y their heresy, and secondly, those unschooled in any discipline cannot accurately understand or represent it to others, then yes, I can reprise the basic elements for you, if you tell me which of the obvious points escape you..

Originally posted by FriedrichNeecher

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
reply to post by FriedrichNeecher

 

You wanna run that by me one more time?

thanks

If you provide your reason for not accepting the obvious in what I claim, which is that heretics cannot accurately represent orthodoxy b y their heresy, and secondly, those unschooled in any discipline cannot accurately understand or represent it to others, then yes, I can reprise the basic elements for you, if you tell me which of the obvious points escape you..

In which context could slavery be allowed?

reply to post by Stormdancer777


I have nothing against any Chinese Christians at all. They I am sure are decent people, I wish them well.

What I am against is when religious folks don’t want to acknowledge that just because one calls one self a Christian or Muslim or Jew or whatever, and they go about doing harm to others and steal, plunder and rob, they don’t see this for what it is, and justify it based on the fact that such and such claims to be a Christian or whatever.

It is this attitude that has done the most to make people hate religion.

People are Christ-like because they do good deeds like Christ did.

Originally posted by hippomchippo

Originally posted by FriedrichNeecher

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
reply to post by FriedrichNeecher

 

You wanna run that by me one more time?

thanks

If you provide your reason for not accepting the obvious in what I claim, which is that heretics cannot accurately represent orthodoxy b y their heresy, and secondly, those unschooled in any discipline cannot accurately understand or represent it to others, then yes, I can reprise the basic elements for you, if you tell me which of the obvious points escape you..

In which context could slavery be allowed?

Christian doctrine doesnt allow for slavery in any form. Can YOU point out where it does? If I enslave anyone in your name are you responsible?
Can I ask you under what circumstances YOU allow slavery and what YOUR claimed belief system is? Perhaps that's the real issue?

Originally posted by FriedrichNeecher

Can YOU point out where it does?

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)


Some aren't actually in the bible but are from very high up members of the church during the time, but several of those are straight from the "Good" book.

Perhaps the real problem is that christianity isnt modiftable into a functional government. It's at deathseeking suiciadal cult of sorts, which makes for very poor governance.
On the other hand THere are intac political systems in both the koran and the old testament.
I fear we're at cross purposes, comparing intact theocracy and a simple system of voluntary morality. TO assume there is any real parallel between morality and governance suggests one isnt paying much attention.

reply to post by FortAnthem


this make a lot of sense. The people in a collectivist culture, with a general idea of Karma and community, cares about one another, and although there's competition, the desire to completely ruin other people in order to have obscene amounts of money [Capitalism] simply doesn't go along with the Karmic ideal of life.

Originally posted by FriedrichNeecher
Perhaps the real problem is that christianity isnt modiftable into a functional government. It's at deathseeking suiciadal cult of sorts, which makes for very poor governance.
On the other hand THere are intac political systems in both the koran and the old testament.
I fear we're at cross purposes, comparing intact theocracy and a simple system of voluntary morality. TO assume there is any real parallel between morality and governance suggests one isnt paying much attention.

That's the problem with religion itself, it is supposed to be Eternal governance.
Hence why you have copper age style beliefs being crammed into the modern world, with disastrous results, and like you said, poor governing in the book itself that makes leaders fill in the blanks so to speak.

reply to post by FriedrichNeecher


God is practical so each of the major religions tolerated slavery. This is the case because slavery in ancient times was a necessary institution, according to this idea.

Though as I pointed out on another thread Muhammad actually freed thousands of slaves and told others to do the same, while not strictly abolishing it.

As for Christianity, Paul himself said that slaves should obey their masters.

The religions tolerated it as a necessary evil while at the same time advocating it’s eventual abolishment.

Originally posted by inforeal
reply to post by FriedrichNeecher

 

God is practical so each of the major religions tolerated slavery. This is the case because slavery in ancient times was a necessary institution, according to this idea.

Though as I pointed out on another thread Muhammad actually freed thousands of slaves and told others to do the same, while not strictly abolishing it.

As for Christianity, Paul himself said that slaves should obey their masters.

The religions tolerated it as a necessary evil while at the same time advocating it’s eventual abolishment.

How is tolerating slavery practical in any sense?
Don't give me that "people wouldnt have accepted it"
He's God, he has no limits as most christians would say.

reply to post by Stormdancer777


Well, he said it's a sorry sight to see Asians practicing christianity, didn't he? While I can't speak for him. I think it's a pretty sorry sight to see anyone practicing Christianity - be they European, Asian, African, or Dromaeosaur (Raptor Jesus went extinct for your sins!)

Think about it. The crux of this religion is that your ancestors sinned, and so you are tainted with this same sin, from birth. There is no way to overcome this sin, except for putting your total faith and love into the same being that cursed you with the sin in the first place. The nature of that sin itself is important - they defied god, and in so doing enlightened themselves, gained knowledge, and became aware of the world around them. So the very crux of the story is that your ancestors made you smart, that pissed off god, who cursed them (and you) and the only way to alleviate the curse is to enslave yourself to this same god.

So why do you even worry about the curse, this original sin? Because if you die with this curse on your head, this god - who loves you - will look down on you and cast you into a place he has created, where demonic monsters will torment you, fires will burn you, and you will be wailing in absolute agony for all eternity. All eternity. If you accept this god as your savior, though, he'll let you into his personal paradise, where all your time will be spent in abject worship of this deity (well, it is his paradise, no one said anything about you)

But wait, there's more. You can't just accept this god, you have to accept him in a very special way. You must believe that this god impregnated a 14 year old Palestinian girl (she was apparently married to a descendant of King David, though since Jews trace lineage maternally and the husband had no part in this anyway, I'm not sure why this is relevant). This girl then gave birth to god (whether she remained a virgin while pushing a 9-pound child through her birth canal is a matter of doctrinal debate) who was then worshiped by some pagan dudes from Persia or Chaldaea or Yemen or somewhere. Thirty-three years later, This guy - who is god, remember - gets brutally tortured and murdered. This is supposedly a sacrifice to god, but why god needs to be killed to appease god is a little murky. Besides, he doesn't stay dead, so one wonders what the point of that was. so, you have to believe all this about God, for that god to not throw you into an eternal lake of fire to have your balls chopped off every minute of every day, or whatever other agonies you can imagine (he still loves you, by the way.)

Oh yes, the murder of this guy, even though it's absolutely necessary to the whole idea being presented, is regarded as a great crime, and the people who enabled it - Judas, and his fellow Jews - are seen as the ultimate betrayers. Which has of course led to lots of unpleasantness, but I digress.

Okay, so. Because your ancestors gained knowledge, god got upset and cursed them, and all their descendants, with a penalty of eternal torture when they die, unless they worship him, in the guise of a self-sacrificed mortal god who doesn't stay dead who was born from a virgin girl.

This worship further does not bring any material benefits. Your god doesn't look out for you, no matter how hard you believe in him. In fact, the more earnestly you believe in him, the more likely you are to accept that getting crapped on by the world is a good thing, a sort of underhanded way for this god to prove his love to you. The philosophy is, the more you suffer in this life, the greater your rewards will be when you die. Oh and by the way, if you ever have a moment of doubt, that's a major sin, and you have to work really, really hard to purge it away, else it's fire for you!

Oh, and also someday he's going to destroy the world and everything living on it, including most people, who will be cast into this pit of flame and pain and torment, while the "Elect" all get to look down, throw rocks, and feel very smug about themselves. Seriously, this god is going to someday destroy everything, from the worst dictator on earth, to the cutest, fuzziest little hamster. Boom, all dead, all fire, all plague and war and then? Eternal torture.

Because he loves you, according to John 3:16.

So to be a Christian, you have to accept all of this. There's more in the bible, but the core is believing in original sin and punishment, the divinity of Jesus and his Passion, and the eventual apocalypse.

Boiled down, Christianity is about hating yourself, for fear that your god might decide to torture you for eternity, before he blows the universe to smithereens. That's pretty sad, no matter who's doing the worship.

Originally posted by hippomchippo

Originally posted by FriedrichNeecher

Can YOU point out where it does?

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)


Some aren't actually in the bible but are from very high up members of the church during the time, but several of those are straight from the "Good" book.

FAIL, sorry. Slaves in christ is a metaphore, and voluntary, making the slavery definition moot. Christian dont make slaves of others, involuntarily, unlike jews and muslims which attribute affilliation involuntarily by decree of one sort or another. Ya know, just cause the word exists in a phrase, it doesnt make its'eaning the exact same.
There is no word or implication by the founder, ie Jesus, which forces anyone to do anything, and tTHAT"S the operative fact, whether you choose to avoid it or not. You seem to persist in an overly legalistic interpretation of assignement of christianity to the unwilling, totally at odds with written doctrine Gain I ask, If I involve myself in criminality in your name, against your directives does that make you liable anyway?
Really the concepts are applicable and logical in this discoruse of others, wherin one cannot usurp authority of something simply by force of will. A thing is what it is, and anything different is something different. Simple, elegant, and dang irritating to those that find restriction of their own goals in it.
oh and the laws of the hebrews in the old testement are superceded by jesus and as such whatever is in leviticus is of no concern. The god of the old testement cannot be the god of the new, and THAT is obvious to anyone that can compare and contrast. The lwas in the OT are for the benefit of the hebrews and dont apply to gentiles. They must change, for that would make every word of jesus null and void, something that the tribe members notice from time to time and therin lies the crux (so to speak) of the problem and the reason that they would rather destroy the heretics in their eyes as usurpers of their messiah than the downmarket wannabes that mohommud represents.

Originally posted by FriedrichNeecher
FAIL, sorry. Slaves in christ is a metaphore, and voluntary, making the slavery definition moot. Christian dont make slaves of others, involuntarily, unlike jews and muslims which attribute affilliation involuntarily by decree of one sort or another. Ya know, just cause the word exists in a phrase, it doesnt make its'eaning the exact same.
There is no word or implication by the founder, ie Jesus, which forces anyone to do anything, and tTHAT"S the operative fact, whether you choose to avoid it or not. You seem to persist in an overly legalistic interpretation of assignement of christianity to the unwilling, totally at odds with written doctrine Gain I ask, If I involve myself in criminality in your name, against your directives does that make you liable anyway?
Really the concepts are applicable and logical in this discoruse of others, wherin one cannot usurp authority of something simply by force of will. A thing is what it is, and anything different is something different. Simple, elegant, and dang irritating to those that find restriction of their own goals in it.
oh and the laws of the hebrews in the old testement are superceded by jesus and as such whatever is in leviticus is of no concern. The god of the old testement cannot be the god of the new, and THAT is obvious to anyone that can compare and contrast.

edit on 8-3-2011 by FriedrichNeecher because: (no reason given)

So your answer to that is basically, "they wanted to be slaves"? Wow, I'm speechless.

Also, you're simply lying that the laws of the hebrews in the old testament were superceded by Jesus as he himself said the laws stand.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

reply to post by hippomchippo


First, I don’t advocate any kind of slavery, BUT

Think for a minute. In pre-modern times we didn’t have welfare and food stamps.
Those ancient folks were very primitive in a sense, so an institution like slavery was so imbedded in the societies that total abolition of slavery at that time would have been impossible. The same thing goes for polygamy. That institution was slowly stopped over time in western religious history, as it is presently being stopped in Islam

If anything God is eminently practical.

Also, would ancient Rome ever have accepted Christianity [ a step forward in a sense] if it abolished slaves?

Of course not, in ancient Rome almost one third of the population was a slave.

You have to understand the mentality of the pre-modern man. It wasn’t like today where we have institutions and modern utilities and learning. Back then people rarely knew how to read or right. They were very primitive. Any kind of religious philosophy would have been hard to go over with those ancient people.

As Credo Mutwa a senior Zulu shaman tells the tale:
"At first they had the bible and we had the land
then they said:
"Let us close our eyes and pray"
and then:
When we opened our eyes, we had the bible and they had the land."

It is said that in Canada if all the un honoured treaties were honoured as the white christians signed them
Canada would be broke. ( not to mention residential schools...
GENOCIDE ON CHILDREN PAID FOR BY TAX DOLLARS AND EXECUTED LITERALLY BY CHRISTIAN CHURCHES...
The chinese wish they had evil minions like that...if they did..
They could conqure the world....

Hitler was a Christian.
Christian Manifest destiny and all that.....remember that?
those were the days...

Where is western Christianity now?
If you don't go steal Gaddafis dough, the bankers will foreclose on you AGAIN!!!!
and there is less and less unarmed world to steal to pay that Luciferian debt you signed for in blood.
heh heh
its ok
just don't look back
something may be gaining on you....

Originally posted by inforeal
reply to post by hippomchippo

 

First, I don’t advocate any kind of slavery, BUT

Think for a minute. In pre-modern times we didn’t have welfare and food stamps.
Those ancient folks were very primitive in a sense, so an institution like slavery was so imbedded in the societies that total abolition of slavery at that time would have been impossible. The same thing goes for polygamy. That institution was slowly stopped over time in western religious history, as it is presently being stopped in Islam

If anything God is eminently practical.

Also, would ancient Rome ever have accepted Christianity [ a step forward in a sense] if it abolished slaves?

Of course not, in ancient Rome almost one third of the population was a slave.

You have to understand the mentality of the pre-modern man. It wasn’t like today where we have institutions and modern utilities and learning. Back then people rarely knew how to read or right. They were very primitive. Any kind of religious philosophy would have been hard to go over with those ancient people.

I'm sorry, but Gods law is dictated by the mentality of man?
Are you trying to say something that I've been saying for a while now?
Also, I must say "I don't advocate slavery, BUT" has to be the statement of the year, to me, slavery is and always will be wrong.