The reason why you're not taken seriously

Originally posted by Motive
I mostly just skim through ATS looking for interesting topics, and I always see alot of people in Aliens and UFO's complaining that more people need to open their eyes etc etc.

Same here! Let me make it clear that there is no doubt in mind whatsoever that ETs are out there somewhere, I just don't believe they are visiting us, abducting people etc.

Originally posted by Motive
Ever wondered why alot of people simply don't want to be open to the concept of things such as abductions, or ET's already visiting Earth? Look at the way so many people act on the forum.

Well, my reason is that probably the distance obstacle is probably too huge to overcome even for civilizations far more advanced than us. I could be wrong of course.

Originally posted by Motive
1. Constant stream of ridiculous videos. e.g Kid Catches Alien on Film. SIX pages of replies about a blurry youtube video of an alien supposedly running around some kids house, doing squats in the bushes - posted by someone who has a number of other ridiculous Alien related videos also. SIX pages, thats not even the worst part, the majority of the replies are actually more towards the "Hmm.. Interesting" spectrum of criticism. Are you kidding me, thats all I can say.

And I couldn't agree more. The problem is that "believers" want to believe so desperatly that they jump on every opportunity to do so, even when reasonable and rational members explain to them what they are probably looking at.

Originally posted by Motive
2. Alot of people seem to be of the view that, if you don't believe that ET's are already in contact with Earth, or that there isn't a massive government coverup going on, then YOU MUST BE A NARROWMINDED SHEEP. Personally, I think alot goes on that the public doesn't know about, I really have no idea of what might be going on, and other than the usual Dulce-Super-Secret-Alien-Base, supposed "MJ-12" documents and stream of hoaxers claiming to have been employed by secret Government projects then holding out their hand for your money, there really is nothing to go on. The majority of people believe all of this to some extent, but that same majority seem to find it impossible to be openminded to think, maybe thats not true, maybe we aren't being visited at all, and so on. You can't convince people to open their minds to pretty unfounded theories, when you cant even open yourself up to the prospect that it might be wrong.

I always liked the saying "have an open mind, but not so open that your brain spills out". Also, see above about clutching at straws, because it reinforces ones beliefs. I am in part guilty of that myself. Nothing will ever convince me that ETs are already here, except for tangible and absolutely undeniable proof, like the one that my signature is talking about. I am open-minded enough to entertain the theorotical possibility that ETs are visiting, but do I believe it? No, I need better proof for that and due to our technology at present, no video and no picture will do, because it is easy to fake them with cgi and Photoshop or Gimp.

Originally posted by Motive
3. "Nibiru" - Wow, personally I don't buy into the 2012 theory but who knows. Though seriously, do we need all these "NIBIRU IS COMING" "THE 12TH PLANET" threads constantly. Just look now on the forum, the "NIBIRU, 4th march has arrived!" thread. Full of posts such as "there is definately something up and everyone can feel something - gut feelings." or people claiming to of caught pictures of said planet next to the Sun, waving blurry photographs around and claiming thousands of people worldwide have seen it too so how can people question their honesty... Yet, not one person thought to whip out a telescope or get a decent picture. O.K.

Nibiru is figment of imagination from the mind of Zecharia Sitchin, a self-proclaimed expert in translating Sumerian tablets. The fact that the scientific community does not endorse his crooked translation should ring a bell. Unfortunately, a true conspiracy buff also believes that mainstream science has it all wrong and all those pseudo-scientist and the pseudoscience they are peddling is the absolute truth. It is far more likely that the Earth will be hit by huge piece of space junk, like asteroids and comets, than Nibiru suddenly appearing and wrecking havoc.

Originally posted by Motive
4. "Debunkers" - I really dislike this term, especially as everytime I see the word used, it's used in a pretty patronising way. When most people see or hear that word, they probably think of trolls. Yet every time a ridiculous picture of some teenager taking a picture of themselves in the mirror and thinking they can see an alien in the corner of the picture, I'm ashamed of humanity to see that alot of people jump on it. Or when someone takes a dodgy picture out of their window and claim to see a light in the sky, even though it looks fairly obvious to be a smudge/reflection on the window, there'll be countless replies against "debunkers" along the lines of, you're a government misinformationist, or why would he lie or open your eyes they're here.

I don't like labels in general, because they tend to be so absolute and definite. Nobody is 100% this or that. "Skeptics" and "debunkers" are frowned upon and often accused to be a government shill spreading disinformation by the "believers", but they are sorely needed to bring another perspective to the table. And if the "believers" are as open-minded as they claim and as they demand of "Skeptics" and "debunkers" to be, they would at least try to entertain the idea that there might be some truth in the debunking.

Originally posted by Motive
This thread may've turned into a bit of a rant, whoops. The thing is, I'm openminded to the possibility of ET's, whether they're years away, or whether they've been here for hundreds of years, or that we havent encountered them at all. My point is, the attitude the majority of this forum has really doesn't do ANY favours whatsoever for this "community" or for the general ideology behind ET's and such.
Rant over.

Aren't you glad you got it off your chest? I for one applaud you, because it takes a lot of courage to rant about this the way you did. And I'm pretty sure that some -hopefully a minority- will flame you for this.

Originally posted by Motive
I don't really think its a fear of the unknown at all. I think there's a high probability that we're not alone, but it doesn't affect my everyday life. I still go to work, I still shop, spend time with family. So if any alien theories are true, then it's distant from 99.999% of peoples lives anyway. Just like the war in Afghanistan for instance, I know it's going on (not to say I KNOW that alien related things are happening), but it's miles away from me in my comfy home in England, and even though I know theres a possibility it could have a knock on or end up in my own country one day, it doesn't mean I think about it let it affect me, nor does it mean I'm scared of it.

You have kindly described for us, with your Afghanistan analogy, the remedy for fear of the unknown - distance.

You're not concerned about alien life, even though you admit it is a strong possibility, because the universe is a very big place. There's more than enough distance, at least as far as you're aware, between you and the unknown. However, if a mothership appeared over your town and its enormous hatch began to open slowly... that would be a differerent ball game, so to speak.

Ignorance is bliss.

Originally posted by fishspeaker
we "BELIEVERS" know teh truth and will not toleraet the lies of your ilk anymore

I hope you are just kidding, because if you are not, than you are the perfect example of what I was talking about in my reply to Motive.

Great post Walter, and I agree with everything you said, I wish I had more to reply with to you but you hit the nail on the head with every point already.

Originally posted by FOXMULDER147

Originally posted by Motive
I don't really think its a fear of the unknown at all. I think there's a high probability that we're not alone, but it doesn't affect my everyday life. I still go to work, I still shop, spend time with family. So if any alien theories are true, then it's distant from 99.999% of peoples lives anyway. Just like the war in Afghanistan for instance, I know it's going on (not to say I KNOW that alien related things are happening), but it's miles away from me in my comfy home in England, and even though I know theres a possibility it could have a knock on or end up in my own country one day, it doesn't mean I think about it let it affect me, nor does it mean I'm scared of it.

You have kindly described for us, with your Afghanistan analogy, the remedy for fear of the unknown - distance.

You're not concerned about alien life, even though you admit it is a strong possibility, because the universe is a very big place. There's more than enough distance, at least as far as you're aware, between you and the unknown. However, if a mothership appeared over your town and its enormous hatch began to open slowly... that would be a differerent ball game, so to speak.

Ignorance is bliss.

So how does fear come into that at all? I understand the point your trying to make, and that people don't care about things until it's on their doorstep, affecting their lives, but I don't see how it relates to fear of the unknown.

I dont fear Aliens, nor do I know whether they're on this planet with me right now, flying in the skies above my city, or millions of lightyears away.
I'm not concerned about alien life, I'm interested in it. If anything I find the thought of Alien life and some of the theories such as NASA coverups surrounding alien bases on the moon pretty exciting, as in "Wouldn't it be cool if that was true". The problem is, too many people get TOO excited about those ideas that they let their minds runaway with it to the point where it's impossible for them to rationalise it, and they believe it to be true simply because they want it to be true.

reply to post by Motive


Nice post, Motive, and I agree with your main point whole-heartedly. I've been close to posting similar thoughts more than once, but this is actually my first post at ATS, and I didn't want to seem too negative. Because I'm a believer, just a very skeptical one. (Having significant questions about Rendlesham, for example.) I actually believe that *some* UFO's are real, and that the extraterrestrial hypothesis is the most reasonable explanation for that, say, 5% of sightings. (It was something that I saw almost 15 years ago w/ a group of people, and then my recent reading of Leslie Kean's fine new book, that convinced me that it really was finally okay to semi-openly believe in the possibility of extraterrestrial UFO's.)

Still, it's that other 95% rubbish that takes place in the UFO community (the constant obvious hoax vids, outrageous abduction stories, conspiracy theory / Bob Lazaar / Stephen Greer type BS, etc.) that makes it really very difficult to want to publicly put yourself out there. I hope that doesn't offend any individual, honestly, but I know it may. I'm sorry. I just don't see who is helped by so many people seeming willing to check their credulity at the ATS login door. This is not all just for fun. What about truth? Real, demonstrable truth? People's lives get wrecked, credibility gets improperly demolished, etc., good professional people like Professor James McDonald. So, keeping high standards of evidence doesn't hurt anyone, but only helps us all get to that truth more quickly... and most importantly, it helps slowly chip away at that UFO stigma. Rigorous standards gradually eliminate the possibility of the ridicule element being used against those of us w/ professional reputations who are still skeptical but are open to or leaning towards the possibility of extraterrestrial-based UFO's, those who (like me) would like to feel free enough to talk openly about that....

There is one area where I may disagree with Motive's post. I actually do think there is a use for the word "debunker." I think there are a few around who are worthy of every one of that word's negative connotations. It's one thing to be skeptical. I'm all for skeptical minds. But it's another thing to (a la Mr. Oberg) try to imply that, since he can provide prosaic explanations for a few cases in some database, he could therefore likely provide prosaic explanations for *all* of the incidents in that database... and then, to refuse to talk about specific cases, and label the listing of those hard cases as always being some kind of "believer's tactic"... seems very unreasonable to me. Shouldn't the goal try to be to find explanations for every single one of the "best" sightings? An ounce of gold in a bucket full of fool's gold is still an ounce of gold. To refuse to discuss specific cases, or to implicitly urge people to make that unreasonable inferential leap ("a few cases can maybe be conventionally explained, and are still present in the list, so therefore all the sightings in that list are tainted and can be dismissed") seems to me to be very intellectually dishonest. I see in these debunkers the same tactics I see all over the web by science-deniers (creationist, climate change deniers, etc.)... yet in the UFO debunking sphere, however, it's somehow those supposedly on the side of "science" who are urging unreasonable inferences. So, that is why I think it's okay to call people like that "debunkers"; they've gone beyond skepticism, all the way over to a rigidity and loss of reasonableness on the other end of the spectrum. (Worst of all, they often do so while unashemdly trying to paint themselves as the height of human rationality).

(Wow... guess that turned into my own little rant. Sorry!)

What many could probably agree on is that it's truly a shame that alliances seem to form so quickly here, that people immediately get painted with one of two "colors," when in reality there should be at least four of those colors here: those who'll believe anything, those who'll believe nothing, skeptical believers, and skeptical disbelievers. I'm most interested in the last 2 categories... the ones that, sadly, seem least represented.

I've made no friends here now with my little debut semi-rant, surely, but the truth is, I'm dying for a place to have serious discussions about this stuff without the most bizarre, tainted aspects of Ufology always pouring in.

So, I would love to find the more serious area of this website... like somewhere where the best 50 UFO radar cases are discussed (cases with radar + eyewitness + high object maneuverability)... because I know there are at least that many such cases. Yet whenever someone tries to discuss exclusively that, case by case, it all gets lost in the silly paranormal talk or taken over by the most close-minded debunkers imaginable. (Maybe I'll start a new thread and we'll see if we get luckier this time?)

Nice to meet the ATS community.

Originally posted by Perfectenemy
Let me get this straight. Now it´s "our" fault that nobody believes us when we present a proof for UFOs or alien lifeforms?

The problem is that what you deem to be proof usually just doesn't cut it under close rational examination. I don't doubt UFOs exist, but they are just Unidentified Flying Objects and not necessarily ET spacecraft. I also don't doubt at all that there is ET life out there in the vast universe. I just doubt that they are visiting us.

Originally posted by Perfectenemy
You got to be [snip] kidding me.

Watch your language! I do understand that you were emotionally charged when you wrote this, but it still is against TOC and it just isn't polite.

Originally posted by Perfectenemy
This is ridicilous. But of course the sky is blue and we all live in happy hippo wonderland and nothing is wrong with our society. Mähhhhhhhh. But who [snip] cares just blame us for everything. And now you wonder why i hate the sceptics....

I don't think the OP blamed everything on you personally, but if the shoe fits ... Yes, I do still wonder why you would hate people you have never met and know next to nothing about, just because they disagree with your belief and try to offer rational explanations.

Originally posted by Perfectenemy
Ps: Not every YT video of UFOs is a hoax,fake or whatever. Some things can´t be explained and that´s a freaking fact. The existence of UFOs and alien life is a proven fact. Just deal with it already.

Well, name one that isn't, then. However, the problem in the computer age is, that you can fake those things quite easily, as one of the site administrators demonstrated quite recently. I agree that some things are unexplainable - at least for now. UFOs as in Unidentified Flying Object is an undeniable fact, yes. UFOs as in ET spacecraft is not a fact. And yes, I am like the Apostle Thomas in that regard, I need to experience one up close to believe it. Not a light in the night-sky that could be anything, but an actual spacecraft up close. Alien life is not a fact either; it's a very strong possibility - personally there is no doubt in my mind that there are a lot of ET civilizations out there and the universe must be teaming with life - but a fact it is not.


Mod note: circumvention of the automatic censor removed from the quoted post.

reply to post by Motive


The number one reason alot of people aren't taken seriously is the fact that their on this website. If you tell someone hey on ats their talkin about this or that. Do you think anyone is gonna say "NO REALLY WE SHOULD CHECK THAT OUT"

Exactly my point.

Originally posted by Vicarious10000
reply to post by Motive

 

The number one reason alot of people aren't taken seriously is the fact that their on this website. If you tell someone hey on ats their talkin about this or that. Do you think anyone is gonna say "NO REALLY WE SHOULD CHECK THAT OUT"

Exactly my point.

Yea, because of all the points I mentioned. No one wants to take notice of a subject that's invaded by a hoard of [snip] (e.g. the guy a few posts up that said, and I quote "Alien lifeforms are real, its fact, get used to it" then went on to cry about skeptics)

Mod Note: Courtesy is Mandatory – Please Review Link.

Some of the videos that are put up on here are so patiently absurd and ridiculous that I often wonder if there is not a concerted effort by some individuals or groups to purposely create an atmosphere where the believable sitings are not taken serious. I was a definite believer when I first joined this site. I came here looking for answers to my own experiences, but after a few months I find myself steering clear of the UFO forum. As I said, some of the Videos and stories or so ridiculous that it almost seems to me to be done on purpose.
Just my opinion.

reply to post by Motive


Well said. There is way too little thought occurring on this forum of late. It's a shame. It would be nice to have a reasonably serious forum in which to discuss this topic.

Motive, nice post and its a set of subjects I've ranted about many times, sadly it won't change minds but I do see where and why you are coming from.

First you have to understand the types of people who post here, you have the ultra believers, nothing will alter their perception of what is true, then you have the ultra sceptics, the same as the first but in reverse. Sadly these two factions create the worst of the forums.

You also have the people that simply just post because they love their 5 mins of worldwide seen fame, they neither care for the subject nor care for the forum, its all about them. They will post ANYTHING that's on YT simply to make a post and be seen.

And yes, the constant rubbish about Nibiru and the constant repetition of subjects simply frustrates me, take the alien life on a meteorite threads, there's loads of them, its simply ignorance of the part of the posters in most cases as 1. they bring nothing new to the table or 2. bring something that could have been added to an existing thread but make a new thread as some some of ego boost.

I'm a firm believer of the scrapping of the stars system, people should post here because they either want info or can provide info to like minded people who may want to debate their differences in a calm and decent way.

You don't have to be a believer to come here, you simply might be able to solve a mystery of a sighting, likewise a believer may have info as to why the sighting can't be explained easily.

And yes, debunkers is a name that I find slightly offensive and often labels you as not being a believer, that's not the case if a 'debunker' is here for the right reason.

I just wish the mods would have some sort of mini ban system for those that simply refuse to take part in the forum by its rules, I'm talking about creating 10 threads all about stuff that's already currently being discussed and simply refused to search.

Warnings for those that keep refusing to search, warnings for people whose only posting is to add 'lanterns and swamp gas' as their total post.

Lets clean it up..

Originally posted by Perfectenemy
The existence of UFOs and alien life is a proven fact. Just deal with it already.

edit on 5-3-2011 by Perfectenemy because: (no reason given)

its people like this that make the whole alien topic a complete joke.

How is this about Aliens Its just whinging from a group of [snip], who wants everyone to believe what they want. Well I'm sorry fellas, not everyone bows down to [snip]. What you get up me, cos I posted that "Kid catches Alien on film" thread, just because I might believe or I want to discuss it openly and come to conclusion based on fact, not just personal opinion?

No one has posted any evidence against it just personal opinions,this is why no one will take it serious. We have a bunch of ranters and ravers that won't accept any proof. You all wouldn't accept it unless the Alien physically jammed it down your throats.

Mock me I don't care, I truly don't give a [snip] that you think its not real or that you think my posts are ridiculous, as I think the same about you Ridiculous.

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The fact is this: Science does not know what consciousness is and nor does it know what matter is.

I will repeat that: Science does not know what consciousness is and nor does it know what matter is.

OK?

So this here reality is quite mysterious. And in this mysteriousness are what are called UFOs and contacts and abductions.
And there will ALSO be the usual; charlatan opportunists who will be quite happy to coopt this REAL mystery and spin yarns and try and start cults and part you from your money. Steve musclemary Greer spings to mind with his absurd extortionate 'Ambassador of the Universe' scam, etc, and his companies beggin for money for 'free energy' devices which Neeeevveerrrrrr materialize --is that woo woo or what?

I seem to be just pickin on Dr Greer. There are others, so be careful who you give your time and money and energy too. But dont let them make you question Mystery is my main point.

Originally posted by Slipdig1
How is this about Aliens Its just whinging from a group of [snip], who wants everyone to believe what they want. Well I'm sorry fellas, not everyone bows down to [snip]. What you get up me, cos I posted that "Kid catches Alien on film" thread, just because I might believe or I want to discuss it openly and come to conclusion based on fact, not just personal opinion?

No one has posted any evidence against it just personal opinions,this is why no one will take it serious. We have a bunch of ranters and ravers that won't accept any proof. You all wouldn't accept it unless the Alien physically jammed it down your throats.

Mock me I don't care, I truly don't give a [snip] that you think its not real or that you think my posts are ridiculous, as I think the same about you Ridiculous.

Very constructive post.

It's not that I'm mocking you, and I don't think that you truly believe the video could be real at all (atleast I hope not). The very fact that in your thread you asked the video poster "Can you tell us if this is a hoax? How did you feel when it happened?" is enough for me to not take you seriously.

But you're right, I'm a "ridiculous arsehole" and the stream of replies I've gotten from likeminded, levelheaded posters further proves that there's simply NO truth to what I said in my post at all. Good job.


Mod note: quoted text changed to match the changes made in the original post.

Originally posted by Slipdig1

No one has posted any evidence against it just personal opinions,this is why no one will take it serious. We have a bunch of ranters and ravers that won't accept any proof. You all wouldn't accept it unless the Alien physically jammed it down your throats.

You lack common critical thinking. THERE IS NO PROOF! A video that can be replicated is NOT proof. You dont need to "prove its fake". It might not even be possible to prove its fake, unless the guy that made it made some stupid mistake.

But the fact that its so easy to replicate, means that only an idiot would take it as proof.

Originally posted by RemiLP

Originally posted by Perfectenemy
The existence of UFOs and alien life is a proven fact. Just deal with it already.

edit on 5-3-2011 by Perfectenemy because: (no reason given)

its people like this that make the whole alien topic a complete joke.

... as are the people who say "it's fake" and provide no evidence. One extreme is as bad as the other. If you intend to make a claim -- any claim -- you should have evidence and reasoning to back it up.

The myopic 'skeptic' is equally as detrimental to Ufology as the unquestioning 'believer'.

There is proof it's right there on film, lets see all of you use those masdter CGI skills or prove there was nothing in the air that night, or that wild animals were loose. You can't that why your all angry! Any way I don't know why this is allowed in the UFO's thread, it should be moved to somewhere else where you can all whinge and we can get on with finding the truth.

Originally posted by Slipdig1
There is proof it's right there on film, lets see all of you use those masdter CGI skills or prove there was nothing in the air that night, or that wild animals were loose. You can't that why your all angry! Any way I don't know why this is allowed in the UFO's thread, it should be moved to somewhere else where you can all whinge and we can get on with finding the truth.

No it definitely can't be the guys friend ducking around the bushes. That would be absurd.

The TRUTH is that this kid has a stash of LEGIT videos of ALIENS in his BACK GARDEN, the world is looking for answers but the answers are right there on his YOUTUBE PAGE for all to see. It's ludicrous that he hasn't been on Oprah yet.

If you can't take it to court, it's not proof. If you took that video to court, you'd be pointed and laughed at. Hysterically.

No ones angry Slipdig, to be honest you and the guy that said "Alien life is a proven fact, get on with it" are the only guys that seem to get angry over this thread, and the ONLY ones that have resorted to insults. If you have to resort to insults to try to prove your point then your point isn't really worth making. Move along as its obvious its far beyond your abilities to post a constructive, tangible reply.

reply to post by WalterRatlos


Your so WRONG. I am the real deal. I am an expereiencer (since I was a child). I don't talk about it much only post about it once or twice in passing. I don't give a crap about "disclosure". I don't think every you-tube video is real either. What I do know is what I know though is you skeptics are wrong in so much that I truly laugh at your ignorance.