What the Bible teaches about homosexuality.

reply to post by Layla


I called into question his credentials as a preacher. I pointed out that if he is going to make a blanket statement of the inaccuracy of the English translation of the bible then show where in the original texts there are such errors and compare them to the Bible we have today.

And all I am asking you to do is base your passions on some foundation that we can all bring to the table, not based on experiences, not based on speculations but on what the Bible truly does say about this issue and there we will find commonality and some basis to have an informed discussion.

By the way, don't take this so personally.

reply to post by CLPrime


I am glad to see you reply, I can appreciate your point of view here especially with this particular subject. My father was a closeted homosexual all his life and indeed we all attended church on a weekly basis.

The sad part of this whole discussion is the misperception by other people of those like myself who indeed have extensive education in scriptural studies, in fact I myself am a pastor who preaches to a fantastic congregation each week, don't hold that against me lol.

In general Christ's message, dare I say the message of the Gospel is to love the sinner, and hate the sin.
Sadly, Christians over the years have confused this with hate the sin, reject the sinner.

But, remember that there are standards we are to follow, though we aren't going to be perfect.
The Word tells us that we "work out our salvation with fear and trembling", clearly we are going to sin.

But we would be failing in our edicts to hold one another accountable if we simply turn a blind eye to what is clearly a sinful lifestyle.

There is mercy and understanding... and then there is enabling a sinful lifestyle which is just as much a sin as any other.

reply to post by Rockstrongo37


I will happily agree with that.
And, I won't hold that against you I'm trying to see if I can also preach once in a while at a local Baptist church here, so it's not the denomination, per se...it's the people. The people make the Kingdom.

Also, I would've replied sooner, but I had to go shower. Baptism cleanses us from sin, but, if you rely on that one-time immersion to cleanse you physically, you'll soon notice church attendance start to drop.

reply to post by CLPrime


LOL I'll remember that, bless you in your work my friend.

The Bible accepts sexual practices that we condemn and condemns sexual practices that we accept. Lots of them! Here are a few examples.

* DEUTERONOMY 22:13-21
If it is discovered that a bride is not a virgin, the Bible demands that she be executed by stoning immediately.
* DEUTERONOMY 22:22
If a married person has sex with someone else's husband or wife, the Bible commands that both adulterers be stoned to death.
* MARK 10:1-12
Divorce is strictly forbidden in both Testaments, as is remarriage of anyone who has been divorced.
* LEVITICUS 18:19
The Bible forbids a married couple from having sexual intercourse during a woman's period. If they disobey, both shall be executed.
* MARK 12:18-27
If a man dies childless, his widow is ordered by biblical law to have intercourse with each of his brothers in turn until she bears her deceased husband a male heir.
* DEUTERONOMY 25:11-12
If a man gets into a fight with another man and his wife seeks to rescue her husband by grabbing the enemy's genitals, her hand shall be cut off and no pity shall be shown her.

Take a look at the 8 premises about what the bible says and does not say about homosexuality.

www.soulforce.org...

Enjoy.

Originally posted by ArchIlluminatus

Originally posted by MentorsRiddle
What I'm saying is I don't care what John MacArthur said.

He is not Christ - never will be Christ - Can't compare to Christ.

I care what Christ said - What Christ did.

I don't remember seeing a scripture that said, "Behold, Christ came upon a homo and hated him. Scorned him and told him he's going to hell. Threw rocks at him and called all those who would come to hate the homo."

Christ spoke out against homosexuality here Matthew 19:4-6 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

It's crystal clear on the topic of sex and marriage.

Here is verses of Christ talking about Hell:

Matthew 25:30 And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

Luke 13:28 "There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.

Mark 9:48 where “‘the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.

Christ spoke about Hell, you just choose to ignore it. He spoke about Hell more than anyone else in the Bible. It's a serious matter.

.

edit on 2-3-2011 by ArchIlluminatus because: (no reason given)

edit on 2-3-2011 by ArchIlluminatus because: (no reason given)

Arch,

I am not debating on the morality of homosexuality.

I have clearly stated that I disagree with it – it is not biblical and is considered a sin.
IF a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them has done what is detestable…
The Book of Leviticus – Chapter 20, v.13

Jesus did not say go and have homosexual relationships, but rather promoted the union of men and women.

What I am debating on is that John MacArthur is not the sole authority of the Holy Bible.
What I am saying is that Christ said Judge not.
What I am saying is that homosexuality is a sin like any other sin.

Every sin has its roots in the idea that man knows better than God.
There is a reason why God told us not to judge – because mankind is not fit to judge.

The Holy Bible tells us:

The hypocrite first tries to remove the mote from his brothers eye before he attempts to remove the mote from his own.
The Book of Matthew – Chapter 7, v.3-4

This is a parable saying that a hypocrite will first focus on the sin of others, while ignoring the sin present within their self.

We will never be sinless – we should focus on our own lives and our own shortcomings and not that of others.

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
The Book of Romans – Chapter 3, v.23

I will never agree with homosexuality – but I will never condemn a homosexual, for the words of Christ commanded me not to.

Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
The Book of Matthew – Chapter 7, v. 1-2


But, should the sinner not repent of their sin and live happy within their sinful lifestyle, never desiring what is good or rebuking their own sinful ways – Yes, I believe they will go to hell.

But it is their choice – not God’s.

For God has ordained that his will be done, we are his to command – those that rebel will find their reward, just as surly as those who seek after the Face of God will find theirs.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


what was that you were saying?

"For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due." —Romans 1:26-27 (NKJV)

"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." —1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NKJV)

"Knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine," —1 Timothy 1:9-10 (NKJV)

I highly recommend scrolling down a bit from the first listing you see on google~

Originally posted by MentorsRiddle
What I'm saying is I don't care what John MacArthur said.

He is not Christ - never will be Christ - Can't compare to Christ.

I care what Christ said - What Christ did.

Christ preached to a whore and loved her. That's pretty sexually immoral.

Christ preached to a drunkard and loved him.

Christ preached to a murderer and loved him.

Christ told a theif that he would go with him to paradise and loved him.

Christ asked God to forgive the very people who were killing him. Why? Because he loved them.

I don't remember seeing a scripture that said, "Behold, Christ came upon a homo and hated him. Scorned him and told him he's going to hell. Threw rocks at him and called all those who would come to hate the homo."

no, Jesus never hated people, but neither did he approve of sin. what did he say to the whore? 'Neither do I condemn thee...GO AND SIN NO MORE'. too many people forget the last part.

reply to post by MentorsRiddle


It's not being judgmental to point out what sin is.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

Ga 6:1 Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.

If that isn't good enough for you here is what Christ said:

Mt. 18:15-17 If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.
If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

Originally posted by Whereweheaded
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

 

what was that you were saying?

"For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due." —Romans 1:26-27 (NKJV)

ROMANS 1:26-27
NATURAL AND UNNATURAL

What does Romans 1:26-27 say about God?

For our discussion, this is the most controversial biblical passage of them all. In Romans 1:26-27 the apostle Paul describes non-Jewish women who exchange "natural use for unnatural" and non-Jewish men who "leave the natural use of women, working shame with each other."

This verse appears to be clear: Paul sees women having sex with women and men having sex with men, and he condemns that practice. But let's go back 2,000 years and try to understand why.

Paul is writing this letter to Rome after his missionary tour of the Mediterranean. On his journey Paul had seen great temples built to honor Aphrodite, Diana, and other fertility gods and goddesses of sex and passion instead of the one true God the apostle honors. Apparently, these priests and priestesses engaged in some odd sexual behaviors -- including castrating themselves, carrying on drunken sexual orgies, and even having sex with young temple prostitutes (male and female) -- all to honor the gods of sex and pleasure.

The Bible is clear that sexuality is a gift from God. Our Creator celebrates our passion. But the Bible is also clear that when passion gets control of our lives, we're in deep trouble.

When we live for pleasure, when we forget that we are God's children and that God has great dreams for our lives, we may end up serving the false gods of sex and passion, just as they did in Paul's time. In our obsession with pleasure, we may even walk away from the God who created us -- and in the process we may cause God to abandon all the great dreams God has for our lives.

Did these priests and priestesses get into these behaviors because they were lesbian or gay? I don't think so. Did God abandon them because they were practicing homosexuals? No. Read the text again.

In our Soulforce video, There's a Wideness in God's Mercy, the Rev. Dr. Louis B. Smedes, a distinguished Christian author and ethicist, describes exactly how the Bible says these promiscuous priests and priestesses got into this mess. Once again it has nothing to do with homosexuality:

SMEDES: "The people Paul had in mind refused to acknowledge and worship God, and for this reason were abandoned by God. And being abandoned by God, they sank into sexual depravity."

SMEDES: "The homosexuals I know have not rejected God at all; they love God and they thank God for his grace and his gifts. How, then, could they have been abandoned to homosexuality as a punishment for refusing to acknowledge God?"

SMEDES: "Nor have the homosexuals that I know given up heterosexual passions for homosexual lusts. They have been homosexual from the moment of their earliest sexual stirrings. They did not change from one orientation to another; they just discovered that they were homosexual. It would be unnatural for most homosexuals to have heterosexual sex."

SMEDES: "And the homosexual people I know do not lust after each other any more than heterosexual people do... their love for one another is likely to be just as spiritual and personal as any heterosexual love can be."

Thank you, Dr. Smedes. (To get a copy of the video featuring Dr. Smedes, There's a Wideness in God's Mercy, visit www.soulforce.org.)

Getting to know a lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender person of faith will help you realize that it is unreasonable (and unjust) to compare our love for each other to the rituals of the priests and priestesses who pranced around the statues of Aphrodite and Diana. Once again, I feel certain this passage says a lot about God, but nothing about homosexuality as we understand it.

You'll also note that Romans 2 begins with "Therefore, [referring to Romans 1], you have no excuse, whoever you are, when you judge others; for in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself..." Even after he describes the disturbing practices he has seen, Paul warns us that judging others is God's business, not ours.

Source: www.soulforce.org...

Originally posted by Whereweheaded

"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." —1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NKJV)

"Knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine," —1 Timothy 1:9-10 (NKJV)

I highly recommend scrolling down a bit from the first listing you see on google~

PASSAGES 5 AND 6
1 CORINTHIANS 6:9 AND 1 TIMOTHY 1:10
THE MYSTERY OF "MALOKOIS" AND "ARSENOKOITAI"

Now what do the writings of Paul in 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:10 say, first, about God, and then about homosexuality? These are the last two places in the Bible that seem to refer to same-sex behavior. We can combine them because they are so similar.

Moses holding the ten commandmentsPaul is exasperated. The Christians in Ephesus and Corinth are fighting among themselves. (Sound familiar?) In Corinth they're even suing one another in secular courts. Paul shouts across the distance, "You are breaking God's heart by the way you are treating one another."

Like any good writer, Paul anticipates their first question: "Well, how are we supposed to treat one another?" Paul answers, "You know very well how to treat one another from the Jewish law written on tablets of stone."

The Jewish law was created by God to help regulate human behavior. To remind the churches in Corinth and Ephesus how God wants us to treat one another, Paul recites examples from the Jewish law first. Don't kill one another. Don't sleep with a person who is married to someone else. Don't lie or cheat or steal. The list goes on to include admonitions against fornication, idolatry, whoremongering, perjury, drunkenness, revelry, and extortion. He also includes "malokois" and "arsenokoitai."

Here's where the confusion begins. What's a malokois? What's an arsenokoitai? Actually, those two Greek words have confused scholars to this very day. We'll say more about them later, when we ask what the texts say about sex. But first let's see what the texts say about God.

After quoting from the Jewish law, Paul reminds the Christians in Corinth that they are under a new law: the law of Jesus, a law of love that requires us to do more than just avoid murder, adultery, lying, cheating, and stealing. Paul tells them what God wants is not strict adherence to a list of laws, but a pure heart, a good conscience, and a faith that isn't phony.

That's the lesson we all need to learn from these texts. God doesn't want us squabbling over who is "in" and who is "out." God wants us to love one another. It's God's task to judge us. It is NOT our task to judge one another.

So what do these two texts say about homosexuality? Are gays and lesbians on that list of sinners in the Jewish law that Paul quotes to make an entirely different point?

Greek scholars say that in first century the Greek word malaokois probably meant "effeminate call boys." The New Revised Standard Version says "male prostitutes."

As for arsenokoitai, Greek scholars don't know exactly what it means -- and the fact that we don't know is a big part of this tragic debate. Some scholars believe Paul was coining a name to refer to the customers of "the effeminate call boys." We might call them "dirty old men." Others translate the word as "sodomites," but never explain what that means.

In 1958, for the first time in history, a person translating that mysterious Greek word into English decided it meant homosexuals, even though there is, in fact, no such word in Greek or Hebrew. But that translator made the decision for all of us that placed the word homosexual in the English-language Bible for the very first time.

In the past, people used Paul's writings to support slavery, segregation, and apartheid. People still use Paul's writings to oppress women and limit their role in the home, in church, and in society.

Now we have to ask ourselves, "Is it happening again?" Is a word in Greek that has no clear definition being used to reflect society's prejudice and condemn God's gay children?

We all need to look more closely at that mysterious Greek word arsenokoitai in its original context. I find most convincing the argument from history that Paul is condemning the married men who hired hairless young boys (malakois) for sexual pleasure just as they hired smooth-skinned young girls for that purpose.

Responsible homosexuals would join Paul in condemning anyone who uses children for sex, just as we would join anyone else in condemning the threatened gang rape in Sodom or the behavior of the sex-crazed priests and priestesses in Rome. So, once again, I am convinced that this passage says a lot about God, but nothing about homosexuality as we understand it today.

Source: www.soulforce.org...

Just another point of view I suppose...

Originally posted by MentorsRiddle

no, Jesus never hated people, but neither did he approve of sin. what did he say to the whore? 'Neither do I condemn thee...GO AND SIN NO MORE'. too many people forget the last part.

John 8:11 "No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

John 5:14 Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, "See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you."

reply to post by DJM8507


Here is a study note from the NIV Study Bible ISBN 0-310-92588-6 pg 1790

1:27 Homosexual practice is sinful in God's eyes. The OT also condemns the practice (see Lev 18:22).

Turning from natural ways and burning with lust for each other is homosexuality. It clearly says that.

Also here is more commentary on that verse(s)

But we noted last time that in the process of Paul's defining the sinfulness of man and the utter fallenness of man, he gives an illustration of the depth of man's sin by pointing out what is the worst earthly expression of man's fallenness and that is homosexuality. He says in verse 26 that women exchange the natural use for that which is against nature and in verse 27, likewise also the men leaving the natural use of the woman burned in their lust one toward another, men with men working that which is unfitting and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was fitting.

Now we noted last time that Paul deals with the essence of sin, that is in verse 24 and 25, sin comes out of the heart. He deals with the extent of sin in verses 29 to 32, that it covers so many things. It extends over all kinds of behavior. And then that very most heinous expression of sin, the sin of homosexuality, points up the utter fallenness of man. And you'll remember in Romans 1 we learned that because man is abandoned by God, man is left to the consequence of his own sinfulness which is an ever-increasing compulsiveness in sin that drives him to horrifying ends.

I mentioned last week some of the general comments of Dr. Milton Helpern(?) who was the former chief medical examiner for New York City. And I want to quote from his biography entitled WHERE DEATH DELIGHTS. He says, quote...and he's not a Christian...he says, "It's not my role to condemn homosexuality as such and I leave it to the psychiatrists and psychologists to try to figure out why people practice homosexuality. Having performed 60,000 autopsies," he said, "it is high time that those who deviate from the norms should understand the risks. I don't know why it is so but it seems that the violent explosions of jealousy among homosexuals far exceed those of the jealousy of a man for a woman or a woman for a man." And that's why, by the way, it says in verse 27 that they burn in their lust in an unnatural way.

He goes on, "The pent up charges and energy of the homosexual relationship simply cannot be contained. When the explosive point is reached, the result is brutally violent. But this is the normal pattern of these homosexual attacks, the multiple stabbings, the senseless beatings that obviously must continue long after the victim dies. When we see these brutal multiple wound cases in a single victim, we just automatically assume that we're dealing with a homosexual victim and a homosexual attacker," end quote.

Link

Here is one on Sodom and Gomorrah

You know what Troy Perry said, he said God destroyed that city because of a lack of hospitality. The word "know them," yada...yada, doesn't necessarily mean sexual knowledge, say the homosexuals. But if you study its use in the Old Testament, that is definitely what it means in this context. And that city was not judged for a lack of hospitality. Some other homosexuals say, "Well, the reason God judged it was because they were going to have that homosexual relationship without being married, but as long you're married to the man it's okay." But what's interesting is that whenever the Bible refers...well, many times when the Bible refers to the sin of homosexuality in the future, it calls it the sin of sodomy, clearly indicative of what this sin was. It became a descriptive term for homosexuality.

There were multiple sins, I know that, according to Ezekiel, there were multiple sins for which Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed. But this was definitely one of them.

In 1 Kings, just trying to cover a couple of more passages here, chapter 14, I think it is, verse 24, "And there were also sodomites in the land," and this is talking about the time of terrible apostasy in Judah, "There were sodomites in the land and they did according to all the abominations of the nations which the Lord cast out." The term "sodomite" actually came to mean a male cultic prostitute...a male cultic prostitute, someone who functioned as a prostitute in some cult.

In Deuteronomy 23:17 it says, "There shall be no harlot of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel." No harlots among the women, and no harlots or male prostitutes among the men.

Now when there was one, what did God say to do? Look back at Leviticus chapter 18, Leviticus chapter 18 verse 22 says, "Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind, it is abomination, neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself there with. Neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down there to. It is confusion." Then he goes on to talk about defiling and the vomiting out of the land and so forth.

Then go over to chapter 20 verse 13, so we know it's an abomination. In chapter 20 verse 13, "If a man lies with mankind as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination, they shall surely be put to death and their blood shall be upon them." And so God's standard for this immoral thing was that it was an abomination and that the consequence was death. And yet in wonderful grace, as we saw in Isaiah, where there was repentance there was full forgiveness and a special place in God's Kingdom.

There's an account in Judges 19 of a similar nature. And it just talks about some base fellows in verse 22, they were making their hearts merry--getting drunk, of course probably. And the men of the city, certain base fellows, beset the house round about and beat on the door and spoke to the master of the house, an old man, saying, Bring forth the man who came into thine house that we may know him, and there it's the same thing again. They wanted to have a homosexual relationship. "And the man, the master of the house, went out unto them and said unto them, Nay, my brethren, nay I pray you, do not so wickedly seeing that this man is come into mine house, do not this folly. Here's my daughter," here's another guy who would rather give up his daughter than to allow for this. "I will bring out now and humble ye them and do with them--that is the daughter, maid in the concubine--do whatever you want but under this man, do not so vile a thing." And that is a comment as to the vileness of it that gives us insight into how the people understood God's command.

Link

People are trying to twist scripture to make it fit with the homosexual lifestyle. It can't. The Bible even speaks of this.

Timothy 1:9-11 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

1 Corinthians 6:9 Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality

Leviticus 20:13 “If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense.

Leviticus 18:22 “Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin.

Originally posted by ArchIlluminatus
reply to post by DJM8507

 

Here is a study note from the NIV Study Bible ISBN 0-310-92588-6 pg 1790

1:27 Homosexual practice is sinful in God's eyes. The OT also condemns the practice (see Lev 18:22).

Turning from natural ways and burning with lust for each other is homosexuality. It clearly says that.

LEVITICUS 18:22 AND 20:13
THE HOLINESS CODE

Let's move on. What do the two verses sometimes cited from Leviticus say about God?

Leviticus 18:6 reads: "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female. It is an abomination." A similar verse occurs two chapters later, in Leviticus 20:13: "A man who sleeps with another man is an abomination and should be executed." On the surface, these words could leave you feeling rather uneasy, especially if you are gay. But just below the surface is the deeper truth about God -- and it has nothing to do with sex.

Leviticus is a holiness code written 3,000 years ago. This code includes many of the outdated sexual laws we mentioned earlier, and a lot more. It also includes prohibitions against round haircuts, tattoos, working on the Sabbath, wearing garments of mixed fabrics, eating pork or shellfish, getting your fortune told, and even playing with the skin of a pig. (There goes football!)

So what's a holiness code? It's a list of behaviors that people of faith find offensive in a certain place and time. In this case, the code was written for priests only, and its primary intent was to set the priests of Israel over and against priests of other cultures.

At the age of 10, I signed a holiness code written by the Women's Christian Temperance Union that said I would never taste beer, wine, or liquor. I thought signing it would please God and my grandmother. That's a holiness code. When I was in high school we evangelical Christians had an unwritten holiness code that went like this: "I don't drink, smoke, or chew, or go with girls who do." Now I know what you're thinking. That last part about "girls who do" proved especially easy for me. But the point is that I obeyed this evangelical holiness code because my parents said that breaking these rules didn't please God, and I knew it didn't please them.

We had another evangelical holiness code while I was in high school that prohibited dancing. I was student body president, yet I refused to go to the prom because I had promised not to dance. I did this to please God and my mother -- whose mother had made her sign a holiness code that she wouldn't go to dances either.

What about this word abomination that comes up in both passages? In Hebrew, "abominations" (TO'EBAH) are behaviors that people in a certain time and place consider tasteless or offensive. To the Jews an abomination was not a law, not something evil like rape or murder forbidden by the Ten Commandments. It was a common behavior by non-Jews that Jews thought was displeasing to God.

Jesus and Paul both said the holiness code in Leviticus does not pertain to Christian believers. Nevertheless, there are still people who pull the two verses about men sleeping together from this ancient holiness code to say that the Bible seems to condemn homosexuality.

But wait, before we go any further, let's ask: What does this text say about God? Even if the old holiness codes no longer apply to us as Christians, it's important to remember that in every age, people of faith are responsible for setting moral and ethical standards that honor God. But we people of faith must be very careful not to allow our own prejudices to determine what those standards should be.

Instead of selecting one item from an ancient Jewish holiness code and using it to condemn sexual or gender minorities, let's talk together about setting sexual standards that please God -- standards appropriate for heterosexuals and homosexuals alike, standards based on loving concern, health, and wholeness for ourselves and for others.

Now what do the Leviticus passages say about homosexuality?

I'm convinced those passages say nothing about homosexuality as we understand it today. Here's why. Consider this single Bible passage that was used for centuries to condemn masturbation:

"He spilled his seed on the ground... And the thing which Onan did displeased the Lord: wherefore he slew him also" (Genesis 38:9-10).

For Jewish writers of Scripture, a man sleeping with another man was an abomination. But it was also an abomination (and one worthy of death) to masturbate or even to interrupt coitus (to halt sex with your spouse before ejaculation as an act of birth control). Why were these sexual practices considered abominations by Scripture writers in these ancient times?

Because the Hebrew pre-scientific understanding was that the male semen contained the whole of life. With no knowledge of eggs and ovulation, it was assumed that the man's sperm contained the whole child and that the woman provided only the incubating space. Therefore, the spilling of semen without possibility of having a child was considered murder.

The Jews were a small tribe struggling to populate a country. They were outnumbered by their enemy. You can see why these ancient people felt it was an abomination to risk "wasting" even a single child. But the passage says nothing about homosexuality as we understand it today.

The Apostle PaulWe've talked about the passages in the Hebrew Scriptures that are used (or misused) by some people to condemn sexual minorities. Now let's look at three verses from the letters of the apostle Paul in the Christian Scriptures that are used the same way. Remember: First, we'll ask what the text says about God; second, we'll consider what it may or may not say about sexual orientation.

Source: www.soulforce.org...

reply to post by DJM8507


I edited my above reply to include more quotes and scripture verses.

Here is the mission statement from the site you keep quoting:

Mission Statement:

Soulforce, guided by the spirit of truth and empowered by the principles of relentless nonviolent resistance, works to end the religious and political oppression of lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, and questioning people.

Vision Statement:

We seek freedom from religious and political oppression for lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, and questioning people.

Hardly a reliable source for sound doctrine. It twists scripture to be pro gay when it's not.

Here's info on the man you keep quoting from:

During the past twenty five years, the Rev. Dr. Mel White and his partner, Gary Nixon, have traveled across the country, speaking on university campuses, teaching the "soul force" principles of Gandhi and King, organizing people of faith to do justice, and confronting religious leaders whose anti-gay rhetoric White believes, "leads to the suffering and death of God's lesbian and gay children."

Taken from www.melwhite.org... it's a homosexual man with a gay partner. Of course he is going to slant scripture and bend and twist it in all sorts of ways to justify his lifestyle choice. He's just leading people into Hell.

Originally posted by ArchIlluminatus
reply to post by DJM8507

 

I edited my above reply to include more quotes and scripture verses.

GENESIS 19:1-14
THE STORY OF SODOM

Now let's consider the second biblical text used by some people to condemn God's gay children. You remember the ancient story of Sodom. First, what does the story of Sodom in Genesis 19 say about God?

When Gary and I arrive at a college or university to speak, there are often protesters carrying signs that read, "Mel White, Sodomite." (Has a nice ring to it.) Actually, I'm not from Sodom. That city was buried beneath the Dead Sea centuries ago. I'm from California -- but perhaps that just confirms their suspicions!

Once again, this story is not primarily about sex. It is primarily about God. Some people say the city of Sodom was destroyed because it was overrun by sexually obsessed homosexuals. In fact, the city of Sodom had been doomed to destruction long before. So what is this passage really about?

Jesus and five Old Testament prophets all speak of the sins that led to the destruction of Sodom -- and not one of them mentions homosexuality. Even Billy Graham doesn't mention homosexuality when he preaches on Sodom.

Listen to what Ezekiel 16:48-49 tell us: "This is the sin of Sodom; she and her suburbs had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not help or encourage the poor and needy. They were arrogant and this was abominable in God's eyes."

Today, heterosexuals and homosexuals alike do well to remember that we break God's heart when we spend all we earn on ourselves, when we forget the poor and hungry, when we refuse to do justice or show mercy, when we leave strangers at the gate.

I admit, there are a lot of gay folk who are Sodomites (and a lot of straight folk as well). Sodomites are rich and don't share what they have with the poor. Sodomites have plenty and want more. While millions are hungry, homeless, and sick, Sodomites rush to build bigger homes, buy bigger cars, and own more property -- putting their trust in safer stock portfolios and more secure retirement accounts.

Whatever teaching about sexuality you might get out of this passage, be sure to hear this central, primary truth about God as well. God has called us do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with our Creator. Sodom was destroyed because its people didn't take God seriously about caring for the poor, the hungry, the homeless, or the outcast.

But what does the story of Sodom say about homosexual orientation as we understand it today? Nothing.

It was common for soldiers, thieves, and bullies to rape a fallen enemy, asserting their victory by dehumanizing and demeaning the vanquished. This act of raping an enemy is about power and revenge, not about homosexuality or homosexual orientation. And it is still happening.
Louima
Louima

In August 1997, Abner Louima, a young black immigrant from Haiti, was assaulted by several police officers after he was arrested in Brooklyn. Officer Charles Schwarz held Louima down in a restroom at the precinct, while Officer Justin Volpe rammed a broken stick into Louima's rectum. These two men and the three other officers involved in this incident and its cover-up were not gay. This was not a homosexual act. It was about power.

The sexual act that occurs in the story of Sodom is a gang rape -- and homosexuals oppose gang rape as much as anyone. That's why I believe the story of Sodom says a lot about God's will for each of us, but nothing about homosexuality as we understand it today.

www.soulforce.org...

reply to post by DJM8507


I'm not going to take his commentary as valid. He is in an openly homosexual man living with his partner. www.melwhite.org... He's not a reliable source for Biblical scholarship. He's just twisting scripture to suit his lifestyle choice. All he is going to do is lead the youth into the pit of Hell for his false teaching. Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Timothy 1:9-11 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

1 Corinthians 6:9 Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality

It's clear homosexuals don't get into heaven from the above verses.

Come up with a more credible source.

Originally posted by ArchIlluminatus
reply to post by DJM8507

 

Here is the mission statement from the site you keep quoting:

Mission Statement:

Soulforce, guided by the spirit of truth and empowered by the principles of relentless nonviolent resistance, works to end the religious and political oppression of lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, and questioning people.

Vision Statement:

We seek freedom from religious and political oppression for lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, and questioning people.

Hardly a reliable source for sound doctrine. It twists scripture to be pro gay when it's not.

Here's info on the man you keep quoting from:

During the past twenty five years, the Rev. Dr. Mel White and his partner, Gary Nixon, have traveled across the country, speaking on university campuses, teaching the "soul force" principles of Gandhi and King, organizing people of faith to do justice, and confronting religious leaders whose anti-gay rhetoric White believes, "leads to the suffering and death of God's lesbian and gay children."

Taken from www.melwhite.org... it's a homosexual man with a gay partner. Of course he is going to slant scripture and bend and twist it in all sorts of ways to justify his lifestyle choice. He's just leading people into Hell.

edit on 2-3-2011 by ArchIlluminatus because: (no reason given)

I am only providing another point of view of the exact same scriptures.

The same arguments could be said of many mainstream Christian ministries and their 'slanted' view and interpretations of scriptures in order to oppress a minority while feeding homophobia to further an agenda.

Here is a good example or such and the direct repercussions that resulted in real physical harm and loss of life.



As hard as it may be to accept, the source I quoted is no less valid than any of yours.

reply to post by DJM8507


Since when is the established orthodox view slanted? The Apostles learned from Christ and passed it down. I can start digging up quotes from the early church fathers if I have to.

I never advocated violence towards homosexuals either, the Bible says it's a sin and they don't go to Heaven. Like all sins they need to repent and turn from their ways.

What I am trying to get across is that we must not forget that homosexuals are only human.

Like us, they sin and do wrong.

What I am trying to say is that we must realize that we all have problems and we all sin - it is not our right to condemn people and be wicked to them because they behave in a certain way.

We should not condone the behaviour - just as I don't condone my own behaviour when I sin.

We must struggle to fight the sin nature, which is present in all of us - and the weapon we must fight the sin nature with is the grace of God; which we received upon Jesus Christ's death at the cross.

What he did for us there releases us from the bondage of sin, which before was not escapeable.

Now we have a way - and that way is through faith that Jesus Christ is the one begotten son of the Living God and that died so that we may be free and have remission of sin.

reply to post by MentorsRiddle


I've already posted scripture verses above. There is nothing wrong with telling people what sin(s) are. If they don't know they wont repent and come to Christ.

If this was about pointing out that lying is a sin, or stealing is a sin no one would have said much about it but bringing up homosexuality then people scream about being hateful and judgmental. How does that work? Sin is sin and bringing up a specific one isn't being judgmental. It's compassionate because one is trying to save their soul.