Exclusive: Non-partisan 'US Uncut' group demands corporations pay taxes

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by inkyminds

 

What I find interesting is that many of the pro-government, pro-war, pro-patriot act, pro-TSA, pro-corporate, pro-police posters often have "Patriotic" themed screen names and avatars.

It's as if the power of suggestion is more persuasive than the power of fact.

I think it is funny how many anti-freedom liberals over generalize.

reply to post by sonofliberty1776


It's called a FIN (Federal Indentification Number) that is issued to all corporations doing business in the United States through the Internal Revenue Service. You know that collection agency that operates under the color of authority of the Alcohol Tabacco and Firearms agency.

In fact if you don't have that Federal Indentification Number you can not open such things as bank accounts, or withhold payroll taxes, social security and medicare taxes from employees.

So how is it this 'fictional charachter' manages to do such a good job at making sure the U.S. Government gets it's cut from workers, by withholding it and forwarding it to the IRS, but the IRS can't figure out how to tax these entities that in fact are making huge INCOME profits?

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by inkyminds

 

What I find interesting is that many of the pro-government, pro-war, pro-patriot act, pro-TSA, pro-corporate, pro-police posters often have "Patriotic" themed screen names and avatars.

It's as if the power of suggestion is more persuasive than the power of fact.

I think it is funny how many anti-freedom liberals over generalize.

Ah the good old divide and conquer left/right two sided coin argument where you either with 'us' or you are with 'them'.

Yet I am over generalizing?

Not according to my very detailed posts that delve into some dark and seldom discussed facts regarding corporations, taxation and other things that effect the average person, because people like to just have 'simple' and 'generalized' fear based discussions.

The premise of your position is not only false but ignorant.

Loopholes created through corrupt congressmen and senators enacted at the beheast of corporate lobbyists is what is allowing the majority of corporations to not pay tax.

Not an inability to identify them and pay tax.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

You totally missed the point. Where does the money to pay those taxes come from?

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

You totally missed the point. Where does the money to pay those taxes come from?

So you're argument, if i read it correctly, is that there should be no taxes, because they get passed on to the consumer?

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776


I think it is funny how many anti-freedom liberals over generalize.

You DO get that that sentence in and of itself smacks of blind assumptions and broad generalization, right?

Originally posted by inkyminds

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

You totally missed the point. Where does the money to pay those taxes come from?

So you're argument, if i read it correctly, is that there should be no taxes, because they get passed on to the consumer?

My point is that taxes on corporations are payed by taxpayers not the corporations themselves. They only collect the money from us. It is just another hidden tax.

Originally posted by inkyminds

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776


I think it is funny how many anti-freedom liberals over generalize.

You DO get that that sentence in and of itself smacks of blind assumptions and broad generalization, right?

edit on 26-2-2011 by inkyminds because: (no reason given)

You don't understand sarcasm, do you?

reply to post by MMPI2

I have to admit some confusion...

Corporations have never paid "taxes" like people do. They are not people.

A corporation is a business construct. It involves a name (i.e., Pepsico) and a number (usually a financial id #).

How would a name on some pieces of paper and an id # pay taxes?

I'd like to have a legit discussion about this.

Well thanks to Justice Roberts and the other "conservatives" (and I use that term loosely) on the SCOTUS, corporations, including those foreign-owned multi-nationals, are now regarded as "persons" in the US with the rights to vote and pump all the money they want into our electoral processes. So in the eyes of the courts, corporations are in fact "persons" - as ridiculous as that sounds.

How they pay taxes - any incorporated entity in the US will receive a TIN (Taxpayer ID Number) or EIN (employer ID Numbers), and they file taxes just as you do under your SSN. Bigger corporations tend to have a multitude of incorporated entities, including those off-shore and under foreign governments. (by law, companies can only do business in country if they are incorporated there - Toyota is a Japanese company but they are incorporated in the US under several names, with their overall holding company named "Toyota Motor North America".)

You ask "How would a name on some pieces of paper and an id # pay taxes?", Well that's all any of us are, just names on a piece of paper with a #. We all pay taxes, or at least should. What happens with the top tier of companies, those that have gamed the system so well they can avoid paying US income tax altoghether?

ExxonMobil is one example, when it came out they paid zero taxes to the IRS (Outrageous: Exxon Mobil Paid No Income Tax in 2009)

Last week, Forbes magazine published what the top U.S. corporations paid in taxes last year. “Most egregious,” Forbes notes, is General Electric, which “generated $10.3 billion in pretax income, but ended up owing nothing to Uncle Sam. In fact, it recorded a tax benefit of $1.1 billion.” Big Oil giant Exxon Mobil, which last year reported a record $45.2 billion profit, paid the most taxes of any corporation, but none of it went to the IRS:

Exxon tries to limit the tax pain with the help of 20 wholly owned subsidiaries domiciled in the Bahamas, Bermuda and the Cayman Islands that (legally) shelter the cash flow from operations in the likes of Angola, Azerbaijan and Abu Dhabi. No wonder that of $15 billion in income taxes last year, Exxon paid none of it to Uncle Sam, and has tens of billions in earnings permanently reinvested overseas.

Of course Exxon went on a media/PR blitz to restate the record in their favor, claiming that they paid plenty of taxes, it just so happened they went to foreign government, or that their workers pay taxes, or state sales taxes should be good enough, etc., etc., etc.

Bernie Sanders said some of this in a speech last year, (Floor Speech on the Economy)

Mr. SANDERS. Mr. President, there is a war going on in this country, and I am not referring to the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan. I am talking about a war being waged by some of the wealthiest and most powerful people in this country against the working families of the United States of America, against the disappearing and shrinking middle class of our country.

The reality is, many of the Nation's billionaires are on the warpath. They want more, more, more. Their greed has no end, and apparently there is very little concern for our country or for the people of this country if it gets in the way of the accumulation of more and more wealth and more and more power.

The point being, that some of our biggest and most profitable companies have learned to game the system so well, they have created an atmosphere where they don't pay taxes while reaping massive profits. Those taxes continue to be pushed down to the lower and middle classes. Big Oil earns billions in profits a month, yet they whine and squeal that if they had to pay taxes it would cost jobs. The idea of settling for lower profits is anathema to them, they'd rather see this country riot like Egypt or Libya before relenquishing one dime in profit.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/764d775e4aaa.png[/atsimg]

Add one more panel to the cartoon above: "If we can't earn billions per month, we're doomed".

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

You totally missed the point. Where does the money to pay those taxes come from?

Do you understand what currency actually is?

It is de facto (a matter of fact or principle) instrument of debt (not weath) fiat (by decree) currency (medium of exchange) printed by the Federal Reserve which is a cartel of Banks including International Ones and not a Government Agency.

It is attached to nothing of value, and indeed it is basically just 'script' used for making purchases at the corporate company store.

Where does the money come from you ask?

No not the citizens, it comes from the corporations themselves.

While you may profess to be the son of liberty, you have failed to use yours to educate yourself to any independent and critical standard of intellect that would help you see through the societal constructs where a system of free range slavery is being used to locate, find, drill, extract or harvest, vital resources, to manufacture, and ship to market, those things vital to live that are then contractually placed in a very small number of corporate, royal and religious hands, who then get to use the power of controlling them to dictate the laws and edicts society lives by through either maintaining or corrupting political processes that make the people imagine it is they and not the Corporate Oligarchs, Royals and Vatican in control.

Dare to educate yourself, and find out the truth of the matrix that forms the basis of society and how it is run, and who benefits from and most controls that process just not here but around the world, hiding as corporations, and behind banks, in the Shadows of one government and political system after another.

It's called a scarcity paradigm where a performance based free range slavery system is designed to create both have's and have nots and confusion so that government can be sold as something to order chaos, and make legal the acquisition and control of all the earths resources through contracts to enable a very small group of people to use the world as their playground, where the vast majority of people labor their lives away in fear, and in often silence for a pittance, being fed lie after lie after lie.

Where does the money come from, from the same corporate tree, the International Banking Cartel that prints it out of thin air, so you can obtain some by doing their bidding and laboring at the pursuits and legally only the pursuits they tell you that you can, and that they want you to, so you can enjoy obtaining some of the resources they tricked the weak minded and fearful into giving them complete control over!

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776

Originally posted by inkyminds

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

You totally missed the point. Where does the money to pay those taxes come from?

So you're argument, if i read it correctly, is that there should be no taxes, because they get passed on to the consumer?

My point is that taxes on corporations are payed by taxpayers not the corporations themselves. They only collect the money from us. It is just another hidden tax.

So your solution here is no taxes?

second

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Do I understand currency?????? Have you read my sig?

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Do I understand currency??????

Have you read my sig?

In other words, no.

I was going to add some smiley giffs, but it's just too hard for me to take them seriously.

Originally posted by inkymindsSo you're solution here is no taxes?

second

Have I said that anywhere? I just wanted to put the truth out there. Corporations do not pay taxes, so let's be honest about where the money comes from.

As for taxes, I do not support the current system at all. I would suggest moving to the "fair tax".

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Do I understand currency??????

Have you read my sig?

While you might not quite understand what your signature is actually saying, it is in the end saying that unless we all see a 'value' in worthless paper currencies, we devolve to little but animals.

Not really a striking endorsement of mankind or the attack on the monetary system you might imagine it and try to pass it off as being.

Actually your currency is part of a religious ceremony. Hence why it has "In God we Trust" emblazoned all over it.

The United States Inc by the was was quietly made a not for profit Religious corporation under the first Bush, and the Federal Reserve is a not for profit religious corproation too.

What has value are resources, and human beings. Resources that we need to live, and human beings who are needed to either extract or manufacture them and ship them.

In reality human beings are the currency of the planet, which is why the Stock Market was originally (and still largely is) based on the investment of human beings into corporate enterprise and the Bond Market the seed money to get those human beings to labor at certain things.

What the rich actually want is control of the resources as long as they have control of the resources they can control human beings who need the resources to survive, and manipulate things like governments and currencies to implement the system where you can obtain or not obtain some of those resources.

While originally gold and to a lesser extent silver was used to back paper currencies, according to the Vatican it has more Gold than is even known to be mined. Where you won't find any real Gold is in Ft. Knox, and indeed they stopped backing paper currency with Gold because it had all been sucked up by a few principle religious and baking players through the manipulation of the system.

Do you understand what currency is? No!

Do you understand that by contractual international agreement that the Pope in Rome is legally God on Earth as the Vicar of Christ, God's sole legal representative on earth, and that the Vatican has most of the world's actual Gold?

Hence your paper currency is part of a religious ceremony where you are partaking of and participating in whether you believe in God the Catholic Religion or not.

Our founding fathers did not actually give us liberty my friend, they gave us a new illusion of freedom to make us simply imagine that we are.

How could you be free on a planet where it is impossible to own or do anything that the government does not tax and take away if it wants through imminent domain or your failure to pay tax on it, and regulates every aspect of your existence through over 600,000 codes and control of the main stream media.

I have enjoyed reading your posts in this thread, until this one. It seems as though your style and approach have changed drastically. May I offer an opinion and ask a few questions?

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

You totally missed the point. Where does the money to pay those taxes come from?

Do you understand what currency actually is?

It is de facto (a matter of fact or principle) instrument of debt (not weath) fiat (by decree) currency (medium of exchange) printed by the Federal Reserve which is a cartel of Banks including International Ones and not a Government Agency.

What do you mean "instrument of debt (not wealth)?" If it doesn't represent wealth in some form, people, governments, and corporations wouldn't want it. Also, while the Fed is not a government agency, it's directors are appointed by the government.

It is attached to nothing of value, and indeed it is basically just 'script' used for making purchases at the corporate company store.

It is not currently attached to anything of value although it had been attached to gold. The government decided to sever that connection.

Where does the money come from you ask?

No not the citizens, it comes from the corporations themselves.

I don't think you mean currency when you use the word money. Certainly neither the citizens nor the corporations create currency. If you do mean wealth, then it sounds like you are congratulating corporations for creating wealth.

While you may profess to the the son of liberty, you have failed to use yours to educate yourself to any independent and critical standard of intellect that would help you see through the societal constructs where a system of free range slavery is being used to locate, find, drill, extract or harvest, vital resources, to manufacture, and ship to market, those things vital to live that are then contractually placed in a very small number of corporate, royal and religious hands, who then get to use the power of controlling them to dictate the laws and edicts society lives by through either maintaining or corrupting political processes that make the people imagine it is they and not the Corporate Oligarchs, Royals and Vatican in control.

Dare to educate yourself, and find out the truth of the matrix that forms the basis of society and how it is run, and who benefits from and most controls that process just not here but around the world, hiding as corporations, and behind banks, in the Shadows of one government and political system after another.

It's called a scarcity paradigm where a performance based free range slavery system is designed to create both have's and have nots and confusion so that government can be sold as something to order chaos, and make legal the acquisition and control of all the earths resources through contracts to enable a very small group of people to use the world as their playground, where the vast majority of people labor their lives away in fear, and in often silence for a pittance, being fed lie after lie after lie.

Where does the money come from, from the same corporate tree, the International Banking Cartel that prints it out of thin air, so you can obtain some by doing their bidding and laboring at the pursuits and legally only the pursuits they tell you that you can, and that they want you to, so you can enjoy obtaining some of the resources they tricked the weak minded and fearful into giving them complete control over!

I haven't yet learned about conspiracy theories (I am very new here) and a lot of this part sounds like it should be in a conspiracy thread. But, a couple of observations. A 'scarcity paradigm" is a given in economics. Not only "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch," but 'There ain't no such thing as an infinite supply of free lunches."
Also there is a social and economic "churning" that has been continuing for a l-o-n-g time in this country, with poor people becoming richer and wealthy people becoming poorer. That doesn't speak well for the control of the people in charge.

I have other thoughts on this section, but it is my job to learn. Now that you know my thoughts, you can correct them as justified.

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776

LOL, would you care to point out the part of this post that is false? How do you think a "fictional person" would pay taxes?

How about try to answer the question. Who REALLY PAYS?

You are absolutely right. WE pay ALL the taxes. Taxing corporations is insane in the first place. The US has the highest corporate tax rate of any industialized nation. No wonder our corporations go overseas. They are at a competitive disadvantage. People seem to feel that corporations "suck up" money and that is just somehow disappears. Not true. Money gets paid out in salaries and dividends and is available to the economy. Even if it goes roght into the bank that money is available to circulate. If you raise corporate tax rates or "close the loopholes" then the end result is higher prices on goods and services. Once again, WE pay.

And just to clarify, the average middle class American DOES NOT pay 25-32% in taxes. You are listing the marginal tax rate, the rate for gthe 'next dollar earned.' Someone making $150,000 per year, even with a standard deduction--not itemized at all, pays about 16% in taxes.

From 1986 to 2004, the total share of the income tax burden paid by the top 1 percent of income earners grew by nearly half, from 25.8 percent to 36.9 percent.

Over that same time, the burden of the bottom 50 percent of earners was almost halved from 6.5 percent to 3.3 percent. In 2000, a year before the first tax cuts under Bush, roughly 30 million tax returns had no income tax liability. Every dollar those earners made they kept (- fica)

By 2004, a year after the second round of cuts was passed, 43 million returns had no tax. It estimates that, in all, more than 25 million Americans have been wiped off the federal tax rolls just by President Bush.

OK: To summarize, then.

The top 1% pay over a third of the taxes.
The top 50% pay about 96% of the taxes.
The bottom 50% pay a little over 3% of the taxes with 43 million returns paying NOTHING at all.

You want to know why you don't have a job? It's because the $1.00 that could have been invested went to the government instead.

US Uncut is simply another socialist anti-corporate leftist organization. I'm hoping they fail dramatically.

reply to post by charles1952

What do you mean "instrument of debt (not wealth)?" If it doesn't represent wealth in some form, people, governments, and corporations wouldn't want it. Also, while the Fed is not a government agency, it's directors are appointed by the government.

In reverse order, the Head of the Federal Reserve is in essence a 'point man' and 'liason' to the Government. If you have ever seen them testify before Congressional committees they are smug, in total control and can stone wall and defeat any attempts at oversight.

Further if you understood that political appointees are just that, one man the President deciding through a non-electoral process who is going to be in that position.

Now one might ask is the President actually appointing this man or is pressure made on the President to appoint a certain man?

Fact: Presidents come and go but regardless of the party the President belongs to Federal Reserve Chairman typically stay on President after President until they retire.

When the United States made it's first de facto instrument of debt currency the "Green Back Dollar" during the Civil War it was in fact not accepted by the same government who issued it for tarrifs and taxes, in bart because the International Banking Cartel did not approve it's use.

It's an instrument of debt because when attached by Gold or other precious commodity it's redeemable for Gold or other precious commodity.

Now it's simply good for goods and services through the corporate company store.

Paper Currency is no different than a check in your checking book. It operates as an instrument of debt and not wealth, entitling the bearer of to debit in some form, a store for goods, a coproation for services etc.

It is simply a 'rationing' based script system.

It is not currently attached to anything of value although it had been attached to gold. The government decided to sever that connection.

In large part because it no longer had enough gold to back it, interest on our international debt and the prosecution of overseas wars had depleted our treasury of Gold long before.

The changing 'Oil' situation in the Middle East and OPEC meant large numbers of people outside the Cartel were now coming by large amounts of U.S. Currency and if they had attempted to redeem it for Gold from the U.S., well the Gold was not there.

So Nixon took us off the Gold Standard and while the World held it's breath, every other nation quickly followed suit.

I don't think you mean currency when you use the word money. Certainly neither the citizens nor the corporations create currency. If you do mean wealth, then it sounds like you are congratulating corporations for creating wealth.

Actually the way Fractional Reserve Banking works the banks in essence create electronic currency as they are allowed to issue ten times more in loans than they have in currency deposits.

Currently there is about a 14 trillion national debt, and about 11 trillion in consumer debt but only 3 trillion in U.S. Currency in reserve which breaks down to about 500.00 per household.

Yet if you were to split the the national debt evenly like the currency in circulation it works out to about 78,000.00 in person.

Any idea how to pay off a 78,000 dollar loan with 500?

Good luck on that, yes through the issueing of bank drafts and bonds, that rarely are ever converted to cash we have for the better part of two decades been more or less using a system of electronic debits and credits.

Most of the credits are not attached to currency, hence the "debt crisis' because there is no like amount of currency to pay back the debt.

This is why currency is an instrument of debt and not wealth.

I haven't yet learned about conspiracy theories (I am very new here) and a lot of this part sounds like it should be in a conspiracy thread. But, a couple of observations. A 'scarcity paradigm" is a given in economics. Not only "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch," but 'There ain't no such thing as an infinite supply of free lunches."
Also there is a social and economic "churning" that has been continuing for a l-o-n-g time in this country, with poor people becoming richer and wealthy people becoming poorer. That doesn't speak well for the control of the people in charge.

I have other thoughts on this section, but it is my job to learn. Now that you know my thoughts, you can correct them as justified.

First welcome to ATS I hope you enjoy the site and learn lot's while visiting.

Second, yes, there are a lot of conspiracies behind the normal every day things many people don't question and you can find them discussed here on ATS.

Third it's a mistake to equate the "New Rich" with "Blue Bloods" and the "Old Rich" they in fact aren't getting poorer at all, though the New Rich often are fanagalled out of their money by the Old Rich after they have earned enough worth stealing.

Think of it as a Las Vegas Casino, if no one won and struck it rich playing the game, then people would stop playing, so yes it's possible to win playing the game, but the game is basically ruled and structure to favor the house.

The House is the Old Rich and the Blue Bloods who control the resources, every once in a while someone ends up controlling a resource first, that makes them a genuine player, Bill Gates and Microsoft is about the best example I can provide there.

The Oligarchs like to play a game called "A fool and his money soon go seperate ways".

In most cases they always do.

Thanks for posting.

Originally posted by schuyler


You are absolutely right. WE pay ALL the taxes. Taxing corporations is insane in the first place. The US has the highest corporate tax rate of any industialized nation. No wonder our corporations go overseas. They are at a competitive disadvantage.

Corporations go overseas because they can pay workers pennies on the dollar, and have no environmental regulations.

People seem to feel that corporations "suck up" money and that is just somehow disappears. Not true. Money gets paid out in salaries and dividends and is available to the economy. Even if it goes roght into the bank that money is available to circulate.

Really? A CEO's millions in a bank account are 'available to circulate"? And prior to it being concentrated in his/her bank account it wasn't?

I'm sorry to be such a slow typist, I missed your post before I had finished mine.

Now I am really worried, ProtoplasmicTraveller. I know a stranger's opinion may mean nothing to you, but it seems like you've lost your level-headed approach from earlier in the thread. May I cite some examples?

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Actually your currency is part of a religious ceremony. Hence why it has "In God we Trust" emblazoned all over it.

The United States Inc by the was was quietly made a not for profit Religious corporation under the first Bush, and the Federal Reserve is a not for profit religious corproation too.

This seems to be a fairly extreme position. I don't think people see it that way. I would be astonished to find out that there is actual paper work exists showing the US is a corporation. Who would examine their books and fine them for non-compliance?

While originally gold and to a lesser extent silver was used to back paper currencies, according to the Vatican it has more Gold than is even known to be mined. Where you won't find any real Gold is in Ft. Knox,

Are you saying that the Vatican has announced "The world thinks there is x amount of gold, but we have more than that ourselves?" Further, how can you know Ft. Knox is empty?

Do you understand that by contractual international agreement that the Pope in Rome is legally God on Earth as the Vicar of Christ, God's sole legal representative on earth

A contractual international agreement is also known as a treaty. Treaties rank in authority with the Constitution. It is unconstitutional to say the Pope isn't God? How many Muslim nations signed this treaty?

I hope you're just having an off day, I was looking for more from you. EDITED TO ADD: Forgive me for typing this. It was harsh and uncalled for. Different doesn't mean wrong. Again, accept my apologies.