Christians are becoming social pariahs in Britain, claims BBC presenter Jeremy Vine

reply to post by Vicky32

Obviously you don't actually listen to the World Service! I do, every day. "Heart and Soul" purports to be about religion, and I tell you, no one ever told them atheism is not a religion!

Correct I don't and no atheism is not a religion and only the pushers of religion make the idiotic claim.

Even on Christmas Day the programme was not about Christianity, but about how atheists feel about Christmas. If that's not "non-religious" programming, then I am at a loss to know what you guys want!

This is a far cry from non religious thought for the day

The angry mob on h2g2, like you, constantly mistook the word Christian as meaning "doormat". The problem with that was, that being a woman, I had learned that it's vital not to knuckle under to bullying boys and maybe I generalised that a bit much?

As a christian woman you own scriptures make it quite clear that a doormat is about your worth.

As a woman you are worth quite a few shekels less than a man, you are no more equal to any other possession or chattel of the man , you are pretty disgusting when you menstruate and shouldn't be touched.

Should you happen to not have had sex then it is perfectly befitting a man who captures you to keep you as a sex slave , ah your creator holds you in such high esteem does he not ?

Any woman that bows down and enslaves herself to the yawheh/jesus god makes a mockery of every woman in a refuge, shame on you .

Oh, and by the way I've no idea what h2g2 is

reply to post by The Djin


I bet this was one of the happiest moments of your life.
Christians,slowly being labeled "social pariahs" in your country.

I don't think anyone should be a social pariah. I really dislike anyone that has Evangelical tendencies. Be it Left or right or Xtian or atheist. I know how to use search engines and dictionaries. I do not need anyone to offer me their unsolicited take on anything. If I wish to have a discussion with anyone I know how and when to initiate such activity.

I am generally glad that people do things that make them happy just leave me the heck alone. I believe that mr Vine is referring to the C of E which is declining however the fringe churches are growing at a fast clip. The immigrants are bring their own type of xtianitry and are acting as missionaries in the UK. A lot of these religions are ecstatic but they are still xtian.

Faith is a personal thing, and one's personal belief should remain just that... personal! Not everyone else necessarily wants to hear about outside of specifically religion oriented broadcasting or places of worship.
Having grown up with very religious family members, I am proud of my freedom of thought and outright rejection of ALL organised religion. Sure, I have my own personal beliefs but again, they are personal and I do not feel the need to discuss them or to try to push my personal beliefs onto others and convert them from their own beliefs.

All the major religions, as well as being a means of control, are also very devisive, due to the various different flavours within each system. Each branch then declares themselves the true adherants of the faith and demonises everyone else. Notice how ALL religious intolerance is always spread from the top down!

I have travelled extensively over the years, treating all whom I meet with courtesy and respect, and my personal belief system never enters the equation. It just doesn't factor into how I see or treat others - which is as human beings, living their lives and wanting health and happiness for themselves, friends and family. It is the subversion and radicalisation of religious beliefs, based on fear tactics, that has been, and continues to be, one of the biggest reasons for death and destruction committed by man. Of course, we then have many events and wars that hide behind religion but which are nothing more than criminal acts. How can we possibly reconcile soldiers attending a religious service (Christian for example), then going out to sin, committing theft and murder, to name just two? How can the leaders who send those soldiers to fight portray themselves as righteous Christians, attending church one minute then signing orders to invade and kill the next? Hypocrisy reigns everywhere religion is waved at us.

well, my short reply seems to have turned into a bit of a rant... so I'll shut up now.

Suffice to say that Mr. Vine should shut up too and keep religion and his personal beliefs to himself. If everyone did that, perhaps we might just all get along a bit better?

ignorant_ape

welcome to the internets ... you simply cannot project the radicalised views you once heard on ATS onto a entire nation .

Thank you for your welcome, and let me return the favor by welcoming you to the 21st Century. In our time, the internet is part of the media.

The OP discusses the concerns of media personalities, and other people whose job depends on the media. What shows up on one interactive medium, like the internet, may be offered in support of claims, such as those made by those quoted in in the OP, about what would likely show up in feedback mechanisms in other media.

As to trolling for lulz, the same could be suspected of some writers of letters to the editor, radio show callers, and other volunteer providers of "media content." The people named in the OP must deal with this effluvium as they find it. That's their job.

There is nothing in my post that "projects" anything onto a "nation." On the contrary, I am confident that almost every adult in Britain is capable of the elementary cognitive feat of distinguishing between belief in Santa Claus and belief in God.

It is especially pointless for you to list other facially false claims encountered on ATS. Equating belief in Santa Claus with belief in God is just as obviously false. Unlike your examples, however, only this one offers a covert way of making an ad hominem remark, a remark whose explicit form was discussed in the OP, "If you believe in God, then you're a nutter."

I think the only difference these days is that while people still respect the right of people to hold whatever beliefs they wish, that does not mean we have to respect the belief itself...which actually applies to many views people hold, but religion has somehow always had a free pass in that regard, where we have to respect both their right to hold a belief and also the belief.....now that is changing and folks are getting upset about it imo.

Originally posted by andy1033
If your a strong christian believer you means, i think.

If your a hypocrite christian, which is most, this does not mean anything to you. But like often said, england is the worst country for faith in god, and its one of the reasons why it was a center for the beasts that run society(our world).

The english try to turn faith in god, into a mental illness, and your treated as a freak. Who cares, why would i want to have anything to do with wannabe murderers and scum anyway.

Its not just now its happened, england has probably been like that along time long before we where born.

It really is getting rather tiresome having to listen to you spout your anti-English bigotry and nonsense and read your still unsubstantiated accusations.

If this was posted about any other nationality or creed then ATS staff would have taken action, but apparently it's ok to constantly insult and offend the whole English nation and people on a regular basis and over a long period of time.

Despite repeated requests by several members Andy has never suppled any evidence whatsoever to support his claims and constantly criticises and insults England / English at every opportunity with apparent impunity.

Andy, if you despise this country so much why do you still live here?
Is it that you are yet another free loading hypocite who hasn't got the ball's or the gumption to do something about the situation you are in and find it conveniently easier to criticise something or someone else for all of your perceiived ill's?

When you take the time to post on something where you aren't venting your spleen you can be quite shrewd and insightful, why you persist with this anti-English nonsense is beyond me as you are clearly intelligent and have a lot to offer.
Put this idiotic hatred behind you and I'm sure you will see your life moving forward in a positive direction,

Sorry be being off topic but that really annoyed me...I'll probably post on topic later when I've calmed down.

I think religion went out the window in britain in the 60's when free love came in as well as new age thinking. To cast off the laws of the bible must of felt so free. Up till then I think 90 percent of britain had some christian belief. Then the youth of that day took control of their lives and I think now in Britain that way of thinking has been handed down by generations. Sex, drugs, greed, and freedom of thought isnt alowed in the bible. so hence its been discarded. I took myself to church on my own at the age of 8, as I thought I had a calling. By 10 I knew god didn't exist. For me science outwayed god.. oh and the existence of dinosaurs to a 10 yr old was far more honest than a man made god with a man made book

Originally posted by mamabeth
reply to post by The Djin

 

I bet this was one of the happiest moments of your life.
Christians,slowly being labeled "social pariahs" in your country.

No actually M, as a human being I feel very sad that after all this time where our children are becoming more understanding of what it like for a gay or lesbian, atheist or Hindu to be a social pariah. They will now possibly observe the same for those that inflicted it upon others.

If it is the case,that this is how a christian is to be considered, perhaps (to use the language of the superstitious) a karmic justice, then my heart goes out to all the children whos' parents have labeled them according to their beliefs.

Originally posted by The Djin

As a christian woman you own scriptures make it quite clear that a doormat is about your worth.

As a woman you are worth quite a few shekels less than a man, you are no more equal to any other possession or chattel of the man , you are pretty disgusting when you menstruate and shouldn't be touched.

Should you happen to not have had sex then it is perfectly befitting a man who captures you to keep you as a sex slave , ah your creator holds you in such high esteem does he not ?

Any woman that bows down and enslaves herself to the yawheh/jesus god makes a mockery of every woman in a refuge, shame on you .

Oh, and by the way I've no idea what h2g2 is

Vicky was behaving like a child.. accusing others of being her "persecutors" and coming off rather rude and confrontational.. as she has in other threads. Unfortunately you just became what you claim to despise so much in this post and really no different from her. As a woman who is a Christian this is offensive to me and I have done you no wrong.. but even worse.. I dont think you realize how angry and strange you appear to speak to another person in such a way. It reflects badly on you and the beliefs you want legitimized as much as the Christian behaving like an elitist paranoid buffoon paints other Christians in a bad light.

If this is how you view Christianity or what you think it teaches.. I can honestly see why you despise it so much. Its also easy to see you do not hate women or anything of the sort.. you hate what you feel subjugates women. Fortunately you are incorrect! There is no use debating it with you, and I dont want to... I just hope that you dont "take the bait" so easily in the future. So-called Christians bait as much as any other person of any belief system.. sometimes moreso because they can call it defending the faith and get away with it. Just know even though you are entitled to your opinion and the way you interpret something, it is offensive when you paint a broad brush against all women who happen to be Christians.

Good for the UK. Maybe if Christians would get out of everyone else's faces and stop trying to legislate their beliefs on the rest of us we might be more tolerant. I tend to act defensive and with intolerance when a group of bullies tries to force its will on me. Fundamentalist Muslims, fundamentalist Christians -- they are both the same and the world would be a better place without their hate and righteousness.

reply to post by Vicky32


hi Vicky32
H2G2
this?
www.bbc.co.uk...

as in Douglas Adams of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy fame

(sorry this is off topic, I was curious)

Originally posted by pajoly
Good for the UK. Maybe if Christians would get out of everyone else's faces and stop trying to legislate their beliefs on the rest of us we might be more tolerant. I tend to act defensive and with intolerance when a group of bullies tries to force its will on me. Fundamentalist Muslims, fundamentalist Christians -- they are both the same and the world would be a better place without their hate and righteousness.

Hehe.. tell them to get out of your face then.
My dad is what I guess some would call a pagan I guess. Im native american and dad still believes in the old stuff and superstitions. He used to call what you are describing " collecting souls".. as if some religious types think they will get a better seat in heaven if they convert more people than someone else.

reply to post by Advantage

I dont think you realize how angry and strange you appear to speak to another person in such a way. It reflects badly on you and the beliefs you want legitimized as much as the Christian behaving like an elitist paranoid buffoon paints other Christians in a bad light.

Of course I'm bloody angry , people are trying to groom my children against my wishes what the hell do you expect ?

Strange ? Well not around here my dear we probably seem strange to you when we fail to find evidence of the invisible man that lives in the sky, the difference between us is we allow others their strangeness.

If this is how you view Christianity or what you think it teaches.. I can honestly see why you despise it so much.

No it's not what "I" think it teaches it's what is written in your scriptures if you would like me to to quote chapter and verse then let me know and history will also bear me out.

Its also easy to see you do not hate women or anything of the sort.. .

Correct I do not hate women

you hate what you feel subjugates women

Incorrect It's what's "proven" to subjugate women to which I would also add by design.

Fortunately you are incorrect! There is no use debating it with you, and I dont want to.

..

Because you know your getting out of your depth and psychologically ill equipped to deal with me.

I just hope that you dont "take the bait" so easily in the future. So-called Christians bait as much as any other person of any belief system.

.

I can assure you that I am quite familiar with xtian stupidity especially those who try and distance themselves from it but still sing from the same hymn book. Fortunately I am of no system of beliefs so kind of got a birds eye view.

Just know even though you are entitled to your opinion and the way you interpret something,

Hm, when someone shoves a book (written by men for men) in my hand and says with all conviction that it was written or inspired by a god for me to live by but then tells me that I need someone else (perhaps you ?) to interpret it for me gives said book zero value.

When the same book is then recommended despite my protests to be studied by my children this becomes child grooming and repugnant.

it is offensive when you paint a broad brush against all women who happen to be Christians.

I merely repeat what the bible god yahweh/jesus has allegedly had put in print whether or not you choose to obey respect or obey him is up to you.

Anyhow the choice to take offense is up to you, so after all your bible reading you haven't even learned to forgive which is pretty typical of people of your ilk.

I feel I should chime in as an English person even though others have already done so so eloquently.

Religion in England has been in decline for years. I grew up in a christian household in the 70s and 80s and there was little to no church, no home bible study and no sunday school. The same could be said of nearly all my peers.
I think part of the reason is our countries love of technology. For years now England has seen itself (rightly or wrongly) as a bastion of science, encouraging learning and invention through schooling and improved funding. This scientific view does not sit well with religious views and is possibly phasing out 'the invisible sky wizard'.

Strangley the converse seems to be happening in other places in the world such as America and the Middle East where fundamentalism is becoming more rife every day.

reply to post by lnr42

Strangley the converse seems to be happening in other places in the world such as America and the Middle East where fundamentalism is becoming more rife every day.

Which gives more credence to Hitchens' publishers' assertion that religion poisons everything

I think Mr.Vine is probably trying to hint that due the increasingly frustrating PC England we now live in, most people are afraid of offending people and/or different groups. The system we live in now is utter BS, nursery rhymes have to be changed to please all those who have come through the flood gates. BA BA BLACK SHEEP had to have the BLACK taken out of it because people were taking offence to it...

Funny thing is, if people went over to Saudi Arabia for example and started preaching about Christianty and how other religions were pigs etc (as happens here in England) then they'd be stoned... in England it's allowed to happen because we are afraid of upsetting people.

this is the bigger picture. two fingers to that.

Originally posted by lnr42

Strangley the converse seems to be happening in other places in the world such as America and the Middle East where fundamentalism is becoming more rife every day.

Very good points about technology there, we often see the conflict with the scientific fields in the UK. Many of them see to be a confused bunch believing wholeheartedly in science but struggling with how this sits with religion. I do think that is predominantly the older generations though.

On the increase in fundamentalism, I have to ask what you think about the uprising in Tunisia. Surely this revolution indicates a move away from fundamental ideals?
Surely none of this would be possible if the citizens were truly obeying their religious teaching, read as a fundamental script?

Also, we see the thought progressing into action in other previously dictatorial regimes too. They all use their religious conviction as a weapon against the people, but the people seem to be moving beyond their traditional fundamentalism to become more accepting and open, in order to move to a more democratic way of life.

Personally, I believe that religious fundamentalism has reached a peak and is now in decline. I truly believe we are about to see several previously dictatorial regimes (predominantly Arab states) in revolution for a more democratic (and religiously diverse/socially free) nation.

reply to post by kidohno

nursery rhymes have to be changed to please all those who have come through the flood gates. BA BA BLACK SHEEP is had to have the BLACK taken out of it because people were taking offence to it...

Actually to the best of my knowledge this didnt happen. A couple of overly sensitive councils proposed it (maybe even implemented it temporarily) but I think it was shot down in flames pretty quickly.

A controversy emerged over changing the language of 'Baa Baa Black Sheep' in Britain from 1986, because, it was alleged in the popular press, it was seen as racially dubious. This was, as Curran, Pently and Gaber indicate, based only on a rewriting of the rhyme in one private nursery as an exercise for the children there and not on any local government policy.[4] A similar controversy emerged in 1999 when reservations about the rhyme were submitted to Birmingham City Council by a working group on racism in children's resources, which were never approved or implemented.[5] Two private nurseries in Oxfordshire in 2006 altered the song to "Baa Baa Rainbow Sheep", with black being replaced with a variety of other adjectives, like "happy, sad, hopping" and "pink".[6] Commentators have asserted that these controversies have been exaggerated or distorted by some elements of the press as part of a more general campaign for political correctness.

Wikipedia I know...

reply to post by detachedindividual

Very good points about technology there, we often see the conflict with the scientific fields in the UK. Many of them see to be a confused bunch believing wholeheartedly in science but struggling with how this sits with religion. I do think that is predominantly the older generations though.

I agree, there seems to be little conflict within the younger generations. Religion is dying out. A good thing to.

On the increase in fundamentalism, I have to ask what you think about the uprising in Tunisia. Surely this revolution indicates a move away from fundamental ideals?

Although Tunisia is a predominately Muslim nation I'm not sure I would have considered it repressed or particularly fundamentalist. I think it was quite a religiously tolerant, certainly when compared to some other nations.

Personally, I believe that religious fundamentalism has reached a peak and is now in decline. I truly believe we are about to see several previously dictatorial regimes (predominantly Arab states) in revolution for a more democratic (and religiously diverse/socially free) nation.

To be honest I hope it goes further. It would be nice to think that one day in the not too distant future civilisation will be totally free of the burden of organised religion.