To All Debunkers, and all Believers.

reply to post by Argyll


No.
If they actually had closed in New York City, the country's largest city, it would have been reported by more than a couple "mentions" on ATS. Because of a gas smell in radar control facilities, they briefly delayed flights. Nothing closed.
www.myfoxny.com...

reply to post by Shikamaru

The post by Xploder sums up the subject really.........lights in the sky, almost certainly aircraft.......followed by claims that "airports were closed"....... it's a shame that events get embellished, I'm sure that if an airport in NYC was closed due to lights in the sky, then that news would be "world wide news"

As to an event, I'd have to say Roswell and Rendlesham, those two just don't seem to want to go away

reply to post by Shikamaru

your waisting your time,debunkers as i have seen it dont creat post they destorye them,there not capable of creating a new thread..it is what it is.

Recently, by observing our UFO community I've noticed that the "game" has changed slightly, believers believe more and more (kinda blindly) and debunkers try to debunk anything and everything that believers put up. Back then, I still remember we're all on the same side.
Here's my personal perspective on the UFO discussion subject. People from either sides (debunker and believer) are too stubborn that they only stick with what they believe no matter what. Furthermore, meaning of the word UFO is a misinterpretation because whenever that word is put up....people (around the world) assume it is an alien spaceship from outerspace.....that's so wrong.
Debunkers, please, you are not god, there are things that not in our realm of understanding (for now), so just proudly admit that you do not know what hll it is.....Please don't try to make it out into something that debunkable.
Believers, please, open you eyes and mind more; not everything you see is from a different world or outer-space. Anyway, I just hope that my 2 cents will help make a lil difference here.

Ps-my grammar is weak please don't jump me.

i am not a debunker but my favorite vids are.....www.youtube.com... www.youtube.com... ... not sure if these have been discussed yet as i am new to ats...but i like em

Originally posted by Shikamaru
I want to show the believers that even the greatest debunkers have had events that they couldnt explain.

Everyone, be they skeptic or believer, already knows there are cases that a skeptic cannot genuinely explained. However, some believers (fundamentalists, really) think skeptics to be some sort of barometer; they think if a skeptic cannot explain it then it must be alien. They forget both that unexplained only means unexplained and that the inability to invalidate a claim is not the same as proving it (as per Sagan's famous parable).

However, in the spirit of fairness, I will list a case that has always fascinated me. JAL Flight 1628.

Originally posted by Chamberf=6
reply to post by Shikamaru

 

What is your event?
Or maybe there isn't one, not trying to presume.

Hi Chamber!

Well, to be very honest, I'm an extremely cautious believer. If I had to give myself a term, I'd really only be able to say "Suggestive Analyst". While I don't believe in absolutely everything I see or hear about, I like to provide theories that suggest both sides, in hopes of pushing for both sides to investigate more. I believe that if both sides receive enough ideas, that the truth can eventually unravel itself infront of us.

I do have my beliefs. You can read that in my introduction thread, I do believe in extra-terrestrials, the theory of nibiru (be there fractional if not broken evidence), conspiracy theories within our govt, and more. But I will stand firmly and say when and when I don't believe a video is showing something groundbreaking or "a smoking gun".

If I had to choose a subject, it would be Area 51. Regardless of all the research I possibly can be capable, I don't think I'll ever be able to debunk what is actually going on there. So many claims of odd lights, yet such a strict statement that nothing besides standard secret U.S. testing of aircrafts goes on there. And yet so much secrecy, that even former employees cannot begin to explain to us without fear of being black-hit.

I'd also like to make it clear, that I'm not just focusing on UFO's here folks. I want to hear all theories whether it be government or international world changing interest. Something you just couldn't wrap your hands around either as a skeptic or a believer.

This thread was meant to be harmonious and act as a gateway to let those who enjoy debunking and those who have thorough beliefs in current or old theories converse and get to know eachother, and to show believers that even the hardcore skeptics have a story or two they can't debunk.

reply to post by Shikamaru


Well heck, if it doesn't have to be just about UFO/alien issues...
wow I could go on for days.

I'll just mention one though, mercifully...
Nearly every religion. Can't prove any of them fully, can't disprove any of them fully.

My gut (and common sense) tells me that a big part of most of them is pure rubbish. But they all have those nuggets of truth -- that's undeniable. Amid all the rubbish in each religion, there are these shining pieces of pure gold. By that I mean the more moral aspects and practical aspects.
A person can be highly moral without a shred of religious belief...

It is pretty ridiculous to claim that every single person who doesn't believe in UFO's is a paid debunker or disinfo agent - I'm sure everyone here has friends who don't believe and vehemently voice their opposition to the UFO phenom, and being anonymous online is an easier way to voice your disbelief on the subject, so they typically become even more outspoken than they otherwise would in person.

Just because they post a lot of "I don't believe and you are all morons" doesn't mean they are disinfo/paid debunkers; just people who haven't done enough research, haven't read enough books, haven't watched enough videos, haven't done anything except listen to what they are told, "Swamp gas. Weather balloon. Venus."

And when these opposers type their responses to the UFO "quacks" they are always bold. When you don't know something you are bold. Ignorance is bold; knowledge hesitates.

Keep in mind to all debunkers - UFO's have been recorded for centuries in different fashions, not just since the 1900's. Paintings, writings, newspapers, lawyers, doctors, astronauts, generals, even PRESIDENTS have reported UFO sightings. Something else that is annoying about debunkers is that regardless of how above suspicion a person is BEFORE they say they saw a UFO (Highly trained, intelligent astronauts or Presidents for example), as soon as they say they saw a UFO, they *immediately* regard them as, "Oh, they turned crazy!"

No matter what these people past accomplishments are, how above reproach they are, how distinguised they are as people or as a pillar in the community, or even a leader of a country - they are *immediately* branded as old crazy people who have 'lost their mind.'

And with all the pictures out there that are pre-computers and pre-photoshop, out of all the thousands upon thousands of pictures, if just ONE is real - then we are not alone.

Here are some interesting ones:

Jacques Vallee's top-ten list of pre-20th-century unexplained aerial objects:

July 7, 1015: Objects emerge from "mother stars" over Kyoto, Japan.
Oct. 2, 1235: Stars are seen circling over Japan. Astrologers say "it is only the wind making the stars sway."
June 3, 1277: Chinese poet Liu Ying immortalizes flying-saucer sighting in a poem titled "Event Seen at Dawn."
Nov. 1, 1461: The legal adviser to Philip III, duke of Burgundy, describes a bright object that spirals upward, spins around, rolls over "like a loose watch" and disappears.
1513: Michelangelo observes a triangular light with three tails of different colors. He even paints a picture of it, but the painting has not survived.
March 1638: Puritan settler James Everell and two companions report seeing a bright object appearing in the sky above Massachusetts' Muddy River ... and experiencing the "missing time" phenomenon.
Sept. 14, 1641: An Armenian chronicler describes the appearance of a light that "revolved like a wheel" in the sky and moved away.
Jan. 25, 1672: While serving as the director of the Paris Observatory, astronomer Giovanni Cassini spots an object he takes to be a moon of Venus. He announces the discovery after seeing the object again in 1686. But no such moon exists. (The hypothetical moon, which came to be known as Neith, was reported by other astronomers as well. Scientists have speculated that the object was actually an optical illusion or a nearby star.)
Sept. 7, 1820: Astronomer Francois Arago, director of the Paris Observatory, watches a formation of unknown objects making turns with "military precision" during a lunar eclipse.
June 18, 1845: Crewmates on the British brig Victoria report seeing "three luminous bodies" rise from the sea between Malta and Turkey

Source: cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com...

I have no explanation for this sighting over the Niagara falls. Very interesting case:

"UFO" over Niagara Falls : Video

Originally posted by Immortalgemini527your waisting your time,debunkers as i have seen it dont creat post they destorye them,there not capable of creating a new thread..it is what it is.

According to my profile, I've started 83 threads. As I am sure you would label me a debunker (and rest assured, I take no offense in it), that proves your straw-man argument wrong.

Originally posted by Cataka
It is pretty ridiculous to claim that every single person who doesn't believe in UFO's is a paid debunker or disinfo agent...

Sometimes, it is a rationalization; so closed-minded and so convinced of themselves, they cannot comprehend there is such thing as genuine disagreement. There is an internal logic to this and within the context of the UFO myth, it makes sense; once you believe the government capable of everything you will believe they will do anything.

Most of the time, I suspect, it is far more cynical than that. The accuser does not genuinely believe the skeptic to be a disinfo-agent. They only wish to use it as red-herring to put the skeptic on the defensive. Sometimes this is simply to cover-up a weak, flawed argument. Other times (and I suspect it may be organized) it is to intimidate skeptics into silence.

Originally posted by Cataka
Just because they post a lot of "I don't believe and you are all morons" doesn't mean they are disinfo/paid debunkers

Who is posting that? Seems like a straw-man argument to me.

Originally posted by Cataka
just people who haven't done enough research, haven't read enough books, haven't watched enough videos, haven't done anything except listen to what they are told, "Swamp gas. Weather balloon. Venus."

Both a straw-man and appeal-to-ridicule.

And when these opposers type their responses to the UFO "quacks" they are always bold. When you don't know something you are bold. Ignorance is bold; knowledge hesitates.

Originally posted by Cataka
Keep in mind to all debunkers - UFO's have been recorded for centuries in different fashions, not just since the 1900's.

And? As we were less knowledgeable about the world around us in year-past.

Originally posted by Cataka
Paintings, writings, newspapers, lawyers, doctors, astronauts, generals, even PRESIDENTS have reported UFO sightings.

An appeal-to-authority?

Originally posted by Cataka
Something else that is annoying about debunkers is that regardless of how above suspicion a person is BEFORE they say they saw a UFO (Highly trained, intelligent astronauts or Presidents for example), as soon as they say they saw a UFO, they *immediately* regard them as, "Oh, they turned crazy!

Another straw-man argument. Tell us, who is calling them crazy?

Originally posted by Cataka
Jacques Vallee's top-ten list of pre-20th-century unexplained aerial objects

And they are all very interesting. I'd love to read his new book on the subject. I won't comment on them all, because I have no other information on them other than what is printed here.

Originally posted by Cataka
March 1638: Puritan settler James Everell and two companions report seeing a bright object appearing in the sky above Massachusetts' Muddy River ... and experiencing the "missing time" phenomenon.

Reading the original account and the commentary afterwards, while there are some parallels to the modern UFO phenomenon, it seems to writer is trying to force fit it. I also wonder if the witnesses were not having a go of it at the Governor, "when pigs fly."

Originally posted by Cataka
Jan. 25, 1672: While serving as the director of the Paris Observatory, astronomer Giovanni Cassini spots an object he takes to be a moon of Venus. He announces the discovery after seeing the object again in 1686. But no such moon exists. (The hypothetical moon, which came to be known as Neith, was reported by other astronomers as well. Scientists have speculated that the object was actually an optical illusion or a nearby star.)

Neith was controversial from the time Cassini announced it's discovery in 1686. Some astronomers saw it others did not. One astronomer even believed it to be another planet. But as we know now, no such object exists in the vicinity of Venus.

I wonder why Vallee considers this such an important sighting.

Originally posted by Cataka
June 18, 1845: Crewmates on the British brig Victoria report seeing "three luminous bodies" rise from the sea between Malta and Turkey

I wonder if this may have been a sighting of the Wheels of Poseidon phenomenon.

Originally posted by DoomsdayRex
Other times (and I suspect it may be organized) it is to intimidate skeptics into silence.

sorry mate but you're sounding equally paranoid.....

Originally posted by mcrom901
sorry mate but you're sounding equally paranoid.....

[/quote

Perhaps. Though I don't mean on a government level or even a giant conspiracy of believers, just a few individuals and even then mostly bandwagon jumpers.

By the way, here's a thread from '09 that put the question to some of our "premier" skeptics.

Originally posted by DoomsdayRex

That's a lot of quoting, so I'm gonna simplify!

Originally posted by Cataka
Just because they post a lot of "I don't believe and you are all morons" doesn't mean they are disinfo/paid debunkers


Question: Who is posting that? Seems like a straw-man argument to me.

Answer: Really? You've never heard people who believe in or claim to have seen a UFO immediately called names and ridiculed? That's the standard reaction.

Originally posted by Cataka
Keep in mind to all debunkers - UFO's have been recorded for centuries in different fashions, not just since the 1900's.


Question: And? As we were less knowledgeable about the world around us in year-past.

Answer: I think you are implying that we are the most advanced civilization that this planet has ever known - I disagree with that. I believe we are re-discovering things that have been known for many thousands of years, but this knowledge keeps getting lost/destroyed/covered up.

Originally posted by Cataka
Paintings, writings, newspapers, lawyers, doctors, astronauts, generals, even PRESIDENTS have reported UFO sightings.


Question: An appeal-to-authority?

Answer: My point is that these people are typically intelligent, well-trained, and grounded - not the type typically ridiculed by debunkers (trailer parks, country bumpkins and their ilk). So, to me, to immediately discount people with credentials - especially trained fighter pilots/airline pilots who know what a typical flying machine should look and operate like - is an absurdly closed-minded stance to take. You'll let this pilot fly you from one end of the world to the other, you have THAT enormous faith in their abilities, but they are immediately branded 'crazy' by debunkers (Or some other insult/bashing) when they claim to have seen a UFO.

As for the rest of your responses to the link I posted - those are new to me and I just thought I would include them

reply to post by Shikamaru


I think you are trying to make this black and white, when it's really shades of gray.

There aren't just believers and debunkers....there are skeptics, and it's an important difference.

Most members seem to always play many skeptics as debunkers.... Debunkers have the predetermined idea that something is bull...and ignore and/or fail to address any information that doesn't fit this preconceived notion.

A skeptic though, will look at the evidence and weigh it against the claim. Skepticism is healthy...even for believers. The vast majority of UFOs are misidentifications, misunderstood phenomena, etc. So, skepticism helps us focus on the remaining, interesting cases that can't be so readily dismissed.

Believers always assume the fantastic.
Skeptics reserve judgement but try to assume the most likely scenario.
Debunkers assume it can be explained, and that any answer that "could" be true (as long as it's mundane) IS true.