The Official Conspiracy Theory doesn't even make sense

Originally posted by CynicalM
LMAO, OK, whatever you say mate.....

He is correct.

From my perspective, you have made numerous claims and accusations, and then have dismissed any reply as 'the usual' without bothering to investigate it further.

This is not a valid way of investigating anything.

Originally posted by Ignorance_Defier

Originally posted by aethron
reply to post by dereks

 

Care to back that up with some facts? What do you think was available for air defense inside the USA?

Well, fact is the Pentagon was supposedly hit by a hijacked plane one full hour after authorities became aware terrorists were using hijacked planes to attack America.

The plane that hit the Pentagon,(the hub of the US defense system), had been off course and uncommunicative for a half an hour, flew over numerous states on its off-course flight to Washington, DC, and could have destroyed the White House if it had so chosen.

How could bin Laden hope his hijacked planes could accomplish such a feat, knowing the US's almost paranoic attention to defense procedures?

There were 1000s of planes on the radar, they didn't know which ones were initially hijacked. They were panicking (because this had never happened before) and had to rush all of the 1000s of planes to the ground quickly. It was a mess.

I think you are under estimating Bin Laden.

they didnt know how many planes were hijacked? COME ON MAN, thats simply plain stupid

they could just check if the plane was out of route ... and plus, do you really believe they dont check it every single minute? when the plane go out of route, completely in a zone where no plane should have been, its pretty obvious something is wrong

Originally posted by Hefficide
reply to post by aethron

 

Normally I stay far and clear from 9/11 threads, but I feel the need to comment here...

My issue with your premise is this:

Before the September 11, 2001 attacks, pilots and flight attendants were trained to adopt the "Common Strategy" tactic, which was approved by the FAA. It taught crew members to comply with the hijackers' demands, get the plane to land safely and then let the security forces handle the situation. Crew members advised passengers to sit quietly in order to increase their chances of survival. They were also trained not to make any 'heroic' moves that could endanger themselves or other people. The FAA realized that the longer a hijacking persisted, the more likely it would end peacefully with the hijackers reaching their goal.[5]

September 11 presented a unique situation because it involved suicide hijackers who could fly an aircraft. The "Common Strategy" tactic was not designed to handle suicide hijackings. This resulted in the hijackers exploiting a weakness in the civil aviation security system. Since then the "Common Strategy" policy is no longer used.

Source

These flights were not shot down because it wasn't policy TO shoot them down.

thats all great, but after one plane hit a freaking building and there are 3 more planes out there, you would think that something is wrong ... but hey, we can always say these people are stupid, and thats why it happened

reply to post by Faiol


I suggest you can be illuminated by watching and listening to the link to C-Span that is in roboe's post HERE.

reply to post by Faiol

they could just check if the plane was out of route ... and plus, do you really believe they dont check it every single minute? when the plane go out of route, completely in a zone where no plane should have been, its pretty obvious something is wrong

They were over 4000 commerical airlines in the sky that morning - hijackers shut off transponders which deleted
data from ATC system. While still could track from primary reflection was very difficult to pick out what
planes are hijacked from myriad of other aircraft including general (private aircraft) and other commerical
flights.

Thats why landed everybody - any plane not obeying orders sticks out and is considered hijacked

reply to post by dereks


doh!!! the fact are written in history mate, quick to jump arnt we, starred by the noobs i bet.
Whether you check the OS or not, they failed, purposly or not, Nothing else to say.......................................



But, is it denial, or stupidity thats beggining to rule this world??: you do not provide hope.

Originally posted by aethron
What terrorist in his right mind would plan an operation that contained as a crucial element the malfunction of the multi-trillion dollar US Air Defense System?
If the Air Defence System was functioning normally on 9/11 the 'terrorist operation' would have failed.

How could bin Laden possibly know that Air Defence would fail that day, which is something that *had to happen for his plan to succeed?

Personally, I dont think Bin Laden needed to know. I dont think he had anything to do with it.

I think its far more likely that LARRY had these things planned out. After all,

"The insurance policies obtained in July 2001 for World Trade Center buildings 1, 2, 4 and 5 had a collective face amount of $3.55 billion. Following the September 11, 2001 attack, Silverstein sought to collect double the face amount (~$7.1 billion) on the basis that the two separate airplane strikes into two separate buildings constituted two occurrences within the meaning of the policies."

Someone stands to make BILLIONS of dollars. Hmmmmmm......and he just took out that insurance policy only two months prior to the 9/11 "attacks"

Isnt that like if I upped the life insurance policy on my father from 500,000 to 50,000,000, and then two months later, he mysteriously dies? I'd probably blame Al Qaida too

All instrument flights, of which the airlines all fall categorically have a registered Flight Plan.

All planes, even small Cessnas have a transponder used by the FAA for tracking purposes.

Though there were 1000's of planes in the air at the time, It would be clearly evident to the FAA Flight Controllers as to whom was flying without a "Squawk" or transponder signal at the time due to all planes are tracked by their unique transponder frequency and identifying signal.

AND

Whom diverged from their flightplan, w/o communicating it.

The highjacked planes would have had a radar return but no associated transponder code.

And why the FAA had called Norad requesting assistance, in the form of fighter interceptors, who's first response was " Is this REAL or EXERCISE?"

Norad had obviously been duped as well. ...

Please allow me to remind our dear ATS members of a very well known and almost "scary" incident that happened at the White House years ago.

Does anyone recall the name Frank Eugene Corder? He was a truck driver from Maryland. He was feeling so depressed and hopeless, he stole a two seater Cessna, took off from Baltimore and headed for the White House. He was aiming right for it, but ended up crashing in a heap just below Clinton's bedroom.
More on the story here:

www.nytimes.com...

tech.mit.edu...

So tell me, where was our "multi-billion dollar air defense network"? Answer, it does not exist as one imagines it to be. Mind you this was in 1994, just a few years after the fall of the USSR. So we were still not demobilized as we were on 2001. Where were the fighters? Where were those magical AA missiles to shoot down the wayward plane? Can anyone here on ATS recall one, ONE instance of a hijacked plane (be it private Cessna or a large jet) being shot down by our "air defense network"? Or how about a plane being intercepted inside our air space with a fighter?

Our air defense network is to protect us from threats outside US airspace. In fact, most intercepts of aircraft took place outside of US airspace. Sure aircraft can be tracked within our borders but that falls to the FAA.

Recall Payne Stewart's loss of contact and later, crash. It took fighters one hour and twenty minutes to intercept his Learjet. One hour and twenty two to be exact. Still think our magical defense network is so special in our borders?

You also might want to read about our "air defense network" here on this:
www.planeandpilotmag.com...

So no, NORAD was not meant to track targets in our air space, but outside. There have 67 intercepts involving fighters, all outside the air space of the US in the decade before 9/11. ONE involved Payne Stewart in 1999 over US soil and inside US air space.

reply to post by nh_ee


Once again, your perception of how the air traffic control system functions is adequate, but not complete.

If you would take the time to watch/listen to the panel discussion that was broadcast recently on C-SPAN it could be helpful.

Link to my post, and the C-SPAN link: www.abovetopsecret.com...

The fact is, it must have been part of bin Laden's plan that after successfully effecting four hijackings, the airliners would successfully fly through what is probably the most monitored and sensitive airspace in the world to reach their targets.

Didn't bin Laden suspect the nation's Capital would be protected by surface to air missiles? Everyone else did...

Who could possibly suspect that the highly disiplined and technologically advanced US military would fall into utter confusion?

Apparently bin Laden did. Otherwise he would never have attepted his operation.

This thread is not so much about what went wrong with Air Defence that day and why. It is about the improbability of bin Laden planning an operation that under any normal circumstances would seem to have zero chance of being successful.

This is especially so since bin Laden was sacrificing nineteen die-on-request followers, who were already in America, and who could have caused far more chaos by planting remotely detonated car bombs in US cities, surviving to plant more bombs, if terror was the real objective.

reply to post by aethron


The biggest question is.........how did 19 Arabs board 4 different airlines and not make it onto 1 passenger list?

Whoops. The Omission Report fails again.

We've been duped m'friends. It's kinda frustrating that many are just becoming aware of this now, 9 years later because many of us were on-board with this lie, 8 years and 11 months ago!

But it's okay that the majority were unaware because Bush is riding horses again! And Cheney is relaxin' by target shooting on weekends. And bin Laden is smoking opium and counting his CIA money.

So everything's OKAY!!!
Now, let's all go back grazin'!

reply to post by aethron

For starters, there's no evidence that Washington DC area is guarded by surface to air missiles. At least none in fixed locations, though I seem to recall that the Secret Service has access to shoulder-mounted missiles. Though that could be a myth.

Secondly, you seem to be ascribing knowledge to bin Ladin that he didn't have nor need.

All 19 hijackers knew that one they had control of the aircrafts, there was only one way it was going to end. With their own violent death and a "go directly to Heaven and collect 72 virgins"-card. Their soly objective on that day was to take as many American lives as they could.

reply to post by Human_Alien

Sigh, the victims list posted by CNN didn't include the suspected hijackers since they were *gasp* not victims!

Incidently, the Boston Globe managed to get access to the full flight manifests, which, surprise surprise, include all of the hijackers. But I guess that has just been faked, eh?

reply to post by roboe

For starters, there's no evidence that Washington DC area is guarded by surface to air missiles.

Why would you expect evidence? The presence and locations of defensive SAM facilities around Washington would doubtless be classified information.
Though I would'nt expect evidence of them, I *would expect SAM's be there somewhere, just as a commonsense security measure for protecting the top federal politicians and beaurocrats, (including the military top brass), who live and work there.

It's almost unthinkable that the nation's capital would not be strongly protected, but apparently bin Laden guessed it was'nt; and astonishingly, he turned out to be right.

reply to post by aethron


So if there are already and were missile sites in and around the DC area, then why did they deploy Avenger AA systems mounted on the HUMVEEs around the Pentagon and other areas in DC?

And why is that the only time it is ever mentioned of any SAM sites in DC was during the Cuban Missile Crisis? There are no SAM sites in DC. Nothing that pops up out of the Pentagon, ala James Bond. Unless you can find actual evidence of it, its nothing more than a lie.

Originally posted by GenRadek
Unless you can find actual evidence of it, its nothing more than a lie.

Yeah, another lie by April Gallop? :shk:

She had the access, got the classified tour of Pentagon defenses, and specifically said that nothing should have been able to get even close to the Pentagon.

The only reason you trusters can get away with this argument is that you can hide behind the classified wall. The public's need to know about any defenses the Pentagon has, to explain 9/11, does not exceed the need for secrecy on the matter. Sucks for us, works for you. That's pretty much how 9/11 will remain: buried behind classified secrets.

Originally posted by Ignorance_Defier

Originally posted by aethron
reply to post by dereks

 

Care to back that up with some facts? What do you think was available for air defense inside the USA?

Well, fact is the Pentagon was supposedly hit by a hijacked plane one full hour after authorities became aware terrorists were using hijacked planes to attack America.

The plane that hit the Pentagon,(the hub of the US defense system), had been off course and uncommunicative for a half an hour, flew over numerous states on its off-course flight to Washington, DC, and could have destroyed the White House if it had so chosen.

How could bin Laden hope his hijacked planes could accomplish such a feat, knowing the US's almost paranoic attention to defense procedures?

There were 1000s of planes on the radar, they didn't know which ones were initially hijacked. They were panicking (because this had never happened before) and had to rush all of the 1000s of planes to the ground quickly. It was a mess.

I think you are under estimating Bin Laden.

so, the big white plane (747, modified) that flew over the pentagon right after the initial hijacked plane flew into the pentagon had no idea that there was another plane in the area????... there certainly wasn't any other planes in THAT area around that time...i guess the big white plane was just a civilian out for a joy ride...yeah..that's it...what a lucky break for the terrorists...after the WTC was attacked...the entire air force, the marine airforce, and the navy airforce was NOWHERE NEAR THE PENTAGON TO PROTECT IT FROM OTHER HIJACKED PLANES TRYING TO HIT IT!!!

reply to post by aethron


Thanks for stating the logical. It does stand to reason that the Air Defense system in the USA would be a highly improbable point of attack for Al Qaeda if they were truly interested in damaging infrastructure.

Originally posted by TrueAmerican
Yeah, another lie by April Gallop?

Well, she claimed no plane hit the Pentagon, yet accepted money from AA....

got the classified tour of Pentagon defenses

another of her lies, the Pentagon has no defenses...

The public's need to know about any defenses the Pentagon has

The public does know what defenses the Pentagon has...

The biggest flaw with the truther movement. You say that 9-11 was an excuse to go into Iraq. The problem with that is that the amount of planning that would have had to go into pulling 9-11 off, why not plant WMDs in Iraq as well? We go in there looking for WMDs and find none. Just curious.