The 9/11 TUG of WAR.

I was wondering today while reading a few 9/11 conspiracy threads if any of the many points brought up by either side of the argument have done anything to elicit a change of mind with individuals who come to this site..

Over the years I have gone from hard core OS believer, to radical conspiracy theorist then back to OS believer. While this may seem to some to be nothing more than a personality disorder and or an inability to reason properly; however Ill thank such people to consider that I have come to my conclusions only by research and personal investigation, a system that is incessantly pushed like religious doctrine on this and other sites. Though maybe you’re more familiar with the “Think for yourself” ideology of which I speak.

I have read, and studied and read some more, and in the end I was compelled to accept what can only best be described as the most logical facts.

So with that being said here we stand with 9/11 and all its glory.
I have heard things from thruthers that make me feel ill; likewise I have heard similar rubbish coming from believers of the OS. Both who are so adamantly defending their argument that they blind themselves to any real considerations thus forgetting the simplicity of the situation.

When one comes to a site like this and is told to do the research what does that mean exactly?
Say you’re an OSB or (OS Believer) or maybe you’re a fence sitter in the argument.
Your hanging out in the background reading threads and see some truther say…”Hey..all the answers are there just do the research for yourself..”

Ok so that person goes online, reads some web sites dotted among outrageous 9/11 conspiracy crap, goes to a book store buys some 9/11 books and reads. What is found is not anything helpful at all. What is found is not any kind of legitimate answer to any legitimate question.
On the contrary, what is found is only what the person would have been leaning to believe to begin with.

Originally I believed the Os, that’s because they got to me first though media and the like. Later I became a whacked out conspiracy junkie because of the plethora of mostly person to person hear say and eventually mis and disinformation out there on the web. Now I stand as an independent truther if you will, that believes 9/11 was an inside job, but to what degree I can not say.
If a person goes to youtube and views a video making a claim and producing “proof” someone else will come out and produce “proof” that counters the other.
This is how this Tug of war is played out endlessly. Go to ATS watch a truther spill some information, watch a debunker come by and spill their own; both asking pertinent questions, both making fantastic points, but both supplying no answers.

Like I said maybe we are lead to believe by our inclinations toward personal and philosophical beliefs. But from what I can see there are plenty of idiots on both sides of the fence.

It reminds me of the saying that Opinions are like A- holes, everyone has one and everyone thinks theirs don’t stink. (Sorry to be crude)

Anyway in light of all this I just wonder how many people have actually changed their views regarding 9/11.
It doesn’t matter if you agree or disagree with inside job or whatever; this isn’t a thread for slap happy ATS heroes who wish to belittle others for their beliefs.

Rather I legitimately would like to know just how many people have changed their views from being a staunch believer in one side or the other to believing the opposite.

I mean has anyone really offered anything truly enlightening here on ATS to sway the minds of the skeptical?

If you’re a truther don’t say it is not your goal to convince anyone, if this was the case then there would be no point in putting out information and calling for additional investigations. If a debunker, don’t claim the same in the name of denying ignorance because most of what I have seen has been what can only be construed as ad hominem attacks from that group and or an attempt to criticize anyone who asks questions.

Though I can see why it would be easy and tempting to do so in some cases.

So the question is simple ATS, has your view been changed in anyway regarding 9/11 based on supplied information on ATS, be it inside job material, or OSB material.

Because to me as my title suggests I see nothing but an endless tug of war, one that has reached stalemate.


Thanks.

As I've said before, and not afraid to say again, I don't believe the truth movement and nor do I believe any other conspiracy theory neither associated to 9/11. The truth movement and their "us vs them" mentality is a huge turn off. This is the first time, in about three years, I've commented on a thread within this section.

It's a gladiatorial arena that's pathetic to watch, at times.

reply to post by snowen20


I watched live as the twin towers came down, then WTC7...

It didn't seem right then and it still doesn't...

reply to post by infinite


That's a good point you bring up that I have not really given much thought to, us vs them mentality is an obvious point.

It is also one that I think bares much consideration where thruthers are concerned. Maybe if they didn't always come at others swinging the tin foil hat of conspiracy they would be taken a little more seriously.

Then again, a lot of BS has been put in to muddy the waters of legitimate research at the same time.

reply to post by CynicalM


Well my first thought was how much it looked like a Hollywood movie, specifically "Armageddon". Maybe that tripped the subconscious switch in me I don't know. I do know however that it wasn't until 2004 that I even started looking into he conspiracy side of it, and that was only because someone said "watch this youtube of a missile on the plane."

Needless to say I absolutely don't believe there was a missile on a plane, or in holograms, mini nukes, unusual magnetic forces, energy weapons, or any other such claims. if im leaning in any direction it may be....may be the probability that a variety of demolitions were used in the destruction the WTC towers as well as B7.

All I know is that the story has more holes than a Swiss cheese.

reply to post by infinite


It is actually pathetic to watch people believe that the government is your friend, but people like George Carlin basically told the truth how the government works. I post this in many threads about RMS Lusitania and that in itself is a conspiracy that turned fact. I myself at first was a believer, but WTC 7 and also the so called passports of all the hijackers found from the two planes hitting the WTC 1 & 2 were eye openers. Yeah, the passports not only survived with minimal burns, but they also survived the explosions from the fire. But what about all those suitcases as well? None of that survived.

BTW all those passports were found by somebody and they don't know the name of the person who turned them in.

"Needless to say I absolutely don't believe there was a missile on a plane, or in holograms, mini nukes, unusual magnetic forces, energy weapons, or any other such claims. if im leaning in any direction it may be....may be the probability that a variety of demolitions were used in the destruction the WTC towers as well as B7." I cant be as absolute about that day on many things . Oh yes I noticed that I have felt like a yoyo many times . You are correct about the groups not discussing the issues with each other .I could probably read threw a discussion if one existed .But I find I read threw arguments and that sucks .

"If there were open and frank discussions, backed with actual facts and an acceptance that the "truth" stance might actually be wrong, there would be more discussion, and more actual truth. As it is now, the movement seems to want to dictate, rather than discuss." so so true .

" BTW all those passports were found by somebody and they don't know the name of the person who turned them in."
Along with a lot of other dots not connecting .

And as a result,aside from the many myriads of people directly effected by 911, We are at war in other Countries inflicting pain and suffering on peoples not associated with 911 ..Sad so so sad,all of it. peace

reply to post by dragnet53


You've just proven the OP's point.

Thank you.

reply to post by neformore


I couldn't agree more with your post. In fact I too could say that I have actually been forced further from the ideas that truthers claim, NOT because they don't pose good questions and thought provoking scenarios.
It's just I hate having people get into a scientific debate only to have it turn pseudo scientific with the linking to a youtube video wherein a conspiracy theorist ranting in a stereotypical way. Then upon further vetting of that same fruit loop he is also a 2012 is coming, reptiles are coming, Rockefeller has a secret UFO bunker under his house nut ball.

I'm sorry to all the truthers out there, but seriously I have seen more straight forward debating from skeptics of the inside job crowd. This doesn't mean that I always agree with debunkers, and I still believe strongly that it was an inside job. Maybe its personal perception, or the perception that those who believe in an inside job are some how a ranting out of breath conspiracy nut. "Thanks MSM"

Man, what's the big friggin deal? I think most truthers just want a new independent investigation after seeing that a lot of things don't add up, and that the 9/11 Commission was a total failure that did not address many questions. That was not a real investigation. That was a commission setup to make recommendations.

But when you add to that the huge intentional cover up, the gag orders, and the classification of anything relating to Israel's involvement, the makings of a grand conspiracy are all there. And keep in mind that we are paying taxes which fund government agents sent to spew disinformation right back at us and confuse the issue even more. So we end up paying them for disinfo while we have to self-fund any research the truthers want to do as well. Double cluster-****ed is what that is.

reply to post by the2ofusr1


I guess one of the issues that really grinds my gears is the lack of civility with in a supposed discussion about 9/11.

This either proves one or two things, one being that it is still a sore woulnd in the minds of everyone, or two that people in the modern day and age are very intolerant to anyone asking questions about those who they believe they elect to safeguard them from harm.

Of course there are many other factors but that in my mind is just two possibilities.

However that being said, consider the "lack of civility" of which I speak. Everyone knows what I'm talking about, and that is that 9/11 threads are not a place of debate but irrational name calling and endless rants about whose the smartest, or whose "awakened". Not everyone is going to share the same view as someone else and that's not because they are less awake or ignorant per se as much as it is that some just don't view it that way.
But rather than accepting that both sides cut and degrade and slash each other into a bloody frenzy the likes of which only God has seen.

It is hard for me to go onto a thread where someone claims they were an elf in a past life and they are dead serious. Of course every bone in my body is aching to tear into them for what I perceive to be brain damage. But I don't, because I believe they are entitles to their view. So naturally when a truther type rants like a tin foil hat wearing buffoon about secret government holograms and many other UNPROVABLE things i cant blame a debunker for tearing in, they ask for it. I just believe in keeping the facts together, and only stick to what you can verify and work from there. Beyond that you truly are reaching and that's where in on of the problems lie, especially where thread civility is concerned.

Ps : that door swings both ways for both truthers and OSBs.

reply to post by TrueAmerican


LOL Nail hit on head with that post.

A good point to understand is that self funded investigators always get a bad rap. Another problem is that everyone out there tends to want to be the investigator to spring a wild new truth on the world. Its a cowboy complex wherein everyone wants to be the hero. So thats where you get these one day youtube wonders that take a grain of truth and build upon it a mountain of unstable and erroneous BS. There is enough truth out there already that part of me is surprised that a society even needs "truthers", but sadly it does.

I think that the fact that a new investigation is called for is very telling in so many ways by its self.
Maybe you don't have to believe the government did it, maybe it isn't a Zionist conspiracy, whatever. But surely a new investigation...come on, surly everyone can agree on that.

No matter what is printed, video taped or aired about 9/11, i will always think the PTB did it for the gold the patriot act and for war in the mid east for control of oil, were is the gold? were is the oil, why is gas below $5.00 in the US? why was there a war game on, on 9/11, why was the gold moved in 1993 to wtc7? and not moved, how much was recovered? in wtc7, will you believe them, or what you find, fallow the gold, the war game and the war powers act of 2000, see for your self, how far down the rabbit hole do you want to go, you can lead a horse to water but be dammed if you can make him drink it. for you want the TRUTH, you can not handle the truth for it would mean...the gov lies.

My view started out accepting the obvious tragedy that terrorists crashed planes into 2 buildings that collapsed in New York City.

I always just assumed it was true. (that 2 towers were hit by planes, and then the pentagon and its kind of fuzzy because I was a kid and didn't care really because no one around talked about it - unless I was just oblivious...)

So I took physics my senior year in high school - and it was easy for me because it made sense intuitively.

Then I went to college, and chanced upon 'zeitgeist' which, now upon retrospect is not all correct in many aspects, but it was enough to catapult my internet career into the information arena - and around that time I discovered ATS.

I realized how ignorant I was about 9/11 - and the world in general.

Wisdom is knowing you know not.

Immediately when I saw WTC7 it didn't sit right - because of the basic physics I had just learned.

And even if I wouldn't of taken an intro physics class, I think I still would have been shocked so much because I had never ever heard that there was a third WTC tower that came down that day.

In fact, I feel pretty safe to say that probably 50-70% of the 'grown ups' in my midwest town hadn't the slightest either that a third tower came down that day.

If they knew, no one questioned it.

Later on in school I read Machiavelli and studied more on ATS etc.

False flags have a long and verified history in government. As an objective observer of history, it would be naive to discount the idea that 9/11 was just another in a long list of manipulated world events to benefit the wealthy and the elites and the large geopolitical interests.

Then I saw the documentary 'Shock Doctrine' about Friedman economics, and also studied Zbigniew Brzezinski's role in our gov't as well as the history of the banking in the U.S.

It is all one big coherent picture after a while, I feel confident in saying that I am not making unnecessary connections.

Lately I feel as if I have to make the leap to trust my instincts and rational functions - because if I cannot trust them than society is doomed - because I was brought up well and have always been more intelligent than my peers.

I try to entertain the OS, but it is just a load of crap compared to the well-intentioned core of the truth movement.

Our government has a secret and dark history over the past century - and anybody that denies that will obviously be more likely to accept the OS.

But if you look at it objectively, and compare the current factions at work to other empires in the recent and distant past... well... 9/11 isn't really a surprise.

More and more people are committing to the fight, so I hope we will find out one way or the other - the OS is not sufficient for a newer and more intelligent generation.

The OS is only for the complacent worker that doesn't have time to research and question things.

I have always questioned things intensely, and in fact took a lot of heat for it in elementary and middle school because I didn't just 'shut up and learn'.

If I wouldn't have gone to college, and instead just got a job? Then I would definitely still believe that only 2 buildings were brought down.

Just my long-winded 2 cents.

Peace.



edit to add: Oh yeah, and I still have yet to see a 'debunker' answer to these videos and facts:

Google Video Link

And also, from the perspective of geopolitics and geostrategy, things make much more sense. Like why we are so slow to leave Iraq/Afghanistan - because Iran is in the middle. And also, that we had reason to go into Iraq before 9/11 because Saddam was threatening to switch oil trade from the Federal Reserve Note - but the U.S. public would not go along with that kind of thing. Iran is threatening similar. The U.S. FRN, since replacing the constitutional greenbacks, is only worth what wall street is worth because otherwise there is nothing backing it. And wall street does good when the big corporations do good - and many of them are the biggest government contractors. So a fascist system has emerged regardless of any conspiracy, we are currently living in a fascist state. War is the only way to keep the economy going:

Fascists believe that a nation is an organic community that requires strong leadership, singular collective identity, and the will and ability to commit violence and wage war in order to keep the nation strong.[15] They claim that culture is created by the collective national society and its state, that cultural ideas are what give individuals identity, and thus they reject individualism.[15] Viewing the nation as an integrated collective community, they see pluralism as a dysfunctional aspect of society, and justify a totalitarian state as a means to represent the nation in its entirety.[16][17]

fascism

Links about the oil reserve currency swaps:
TIME: Foreign Exchange: Saddam Turns His Back on Greenbacks

google search 'iraq switch from dollar'

The Iranian Oil Bourse[1] (Persian: بورس نفت ایران) International Oil Bourse,[2] Iran Petroleum Exchange or Oil Bourse in Kish[3] (IOB; the official English language name is unclear) is a commodity exchange which opened on February 17, 2008.[4][5][6][3] It was created by cooperation between Iranian ministries, the Iran Mercantile Exchange and other state and private institutions. The IOB is intended as an oil bourse for petroleum, petrochemicals and gas in various currencies, primarily the euro and Iranian rial and a basket of other major currencies apart from the United States dollar. The geographical location is at the Persian Gulf island of Kish which is designated by Iran as a free trade zone.[7]
During 2007, Iran asked its petroleum customers to pay in non US dollar currencies. By December 8, 2007, Iran reported to have converted all of its oil export payments to non-dollar currencies.[8] The Kish Bourse was officially opened in a videoconference ceremony on February 17, 2008, despite last minute disruptions to the internet services to the Persian Gulf regions. Currently the Kish Bourse is only trading in oil-derived products, generally those used as feedstock for the plastics and pharmaceutical industries. However, officially published statements by Iranian oil minister Gholamhossein Nozari indicate that the second phase, to establish trading in crude oil directly, which has been suggested might one day perhaps create a "Caspian Crude" benchmark price analogous to Brent Crude or WTI will only be started after the Bourse has demonstrated a reasonable period of trouble-free running.[9]

Iranian Oil bourse wiki

reply to post by snowen20
"It is hard for me to go onto a thread where someone claims they were an elf in a past life and they are dead serious. Of course every bone in my body is aching to tear into them for what I perceive to be brain damage. But I don't, because I believe they are entitles to their view." LOL and you describe what everyone must see .I see those threads and am only convinced that no matter how one constructs a opinion someone from either side of the coin will ring in with accolades or condemnation ..Its easy to give a starr for a comment but impossible to give a thumbs down ..too bad or is it ...I wish there were a simple grading system for the posters . Then again one group of elves would gang up on someone and it wouldn't accomplish anything . Maybe a group of groups in which someone can be voted off the island,as far as commenting might work . peace

reply to post by beebs


You hit on some really great points, and some of the very ones that keep me skeptical of the OS to this day.
Not just the shoddy job done by who ever perpetrated the 9/11 attacks, but historical occurrences that show who such perpetrators can be when it fits an agenda. In that sense 9/11 reeks of foul play beyond what can readily be described in a small thread.

Originally posted by infinite
The truth movement and their "us vs them" mentality is a huge turn off.

So you know this is not all the people in the movement, some of us just want the truth of what happened that day... We have nothing to gain or acquire just want to know what happen and hold those accountable to those actions..

I can be sure if I killed 3000 people and sent a country to 2 illegal wars You would want my head eh?

reply to post by snowen20

You hit on some really great points, and some of the very ones that keep me skeptical of the OS to this day.
Not just the shoddy job done by who ever perpetrated the 9/11 attacks, but historical occurrences that show who such perpetrators can be when it fits an agenda. In that sense 9/11 reeks of foul play beyond what can readily be described in a small thread.

Yeah and I think many others are in the same shoes.

BTW I added a significant edit of some stuff I forgot I was going to say.

reply to post by ThichHeaded

So you know this is not all the people in the movement, some of us just want the truth of what happened that day... We have nothing to gain or acquire just want to know what happen and hold those accountable to those actions..

I agree exactly.

Perhaps more than anything he media does the best in assisting conspiracy theorists in to the archetypal image in which we find ourselves to date. I don't remember where I heard this, but somewhere in time I heard a psychologist explain that if in a debate you are the first to ask a pertinent question of a third person you then control that debate.

This to me is best explained when Bush announced that we shouldn't entertain outrageous conspiracy theories about the real perpetrators of 9/11. Since he was first, and technically speaking the noisiest his view dominated the media and everything else.

So now we have on one side, the loud talking incoherently ranting conspiracy nut ball fringe element. On the other side the rational, level headed col cam and collected debunker of those outrageous claims.
Well that's the way I see it being proposed.

This is some of the obstacles that both OSB and truthers need to get through in order to make a clearly defined choice about their views.