America: Love it or (if you're rich enough) leave it?

reply to post by woodwardjnr


Who are the rich? I asked this before, WHAT PERCENTAGE of your labor are you willing to give up for your utopian society?

The government provides nothing. They can only take and take and take and take and take and redistribute a little.

When does the government become so large that us private individuals can no longer sustain their Machiavellian machinations?

Right now they have like 1 million people looking into everyone of our lives. Like that figure? 1 million guards in the prison know as the US.

reply to post by sweetliberty


Yeah, we have the perfect example of the anti federalist and the federalist argument.

whaukno wants all the power in the government and I want the power in the individual.

We can all see who wants freedom and who wants tyranny. I love saying that, it gets whatukno all worked up.

edit to add-notice how I want to change the law and whatukno wants to throw me into a camp or another country. Oh and whatukno-

reply to post by saltheart foamfollower


Like I was trying to say, the fact the rich can be rich is down to the society they come from, American society has provided the opportunities for people to be able to prosper, but those opportunities have to come with a cost. Who pays for the roads for the rich to drive too and from work, who provides the schooling, not just for the rich but for all children/future employees of the rich, who need to be educated to a certain standard for the rich to be able to get enough out of them. Who is to pay for the miltary conflicts and support of the nations troops that help to secure Americas position as a super power? All these people have helped the rich become rich.

reply to post by woodwardjnr


Exactly. So why do we have a tax code that is 1000's of pages long? Do you think maybe to actually protect the uber rich from paying their share?

Why not make like a one page tax code?

Like a flat sales tax. That way you pay one time and one time only for your property.

Maybe because it is a control thing? Does someone make say 400k running a business have the money to pay for tax lawyers to create foundations, trusts, etc to be able to avoid the taxes. No. Those that have tens of millions do though.

Do you really think these trusts and foundations are created for philanthropic purposes? They are tax shelters.

Why not just have like a 50% tax on items of vast expense? Then a flat tax on everything else. Maybe throw in no sales tax on items like food, clothes under say $100 and say rental property.

This way the poor do not have to spend their property (labor) on things they do not get the advantage of.

Of course this is never going to happen because those in power use their propaganda to make it seem like the middle class and small businesses are screwing the poor. Sorry, I was making pretty good money, GROSS, not net.

Being single I am forced to pay 50-75% of what I earn in the myriad tax schemes this country has enacted, WITH NO BENEFIT!

As for you and everyone stating things like ROADS. That is paid with gas and fuel tax. NOT income tax.

reply to post by saltheart foamfollower

Yeah, we have the perfect example of the anti federalist and the federalist argument.

It's more of the reality (my side) and insanity (your side) argument.

whaukno wants all the power in the government and I want the power in the individual.

From what I have read, you just want anarchy. Not power in the individual, power to the most powerful.

We can all see who wants freedom and who wants tyranny. I love saying that, it gets whatukno all worked up.

What you call tyranny I call compromise and reality. But somehow for some reason, you aren't able to see the compromise.

edit to add-notice how I want to change the law and whatukno wants to throw me into a camp or another country. Oh and whatukno-

I just want to see you happy, I want to see you get everything you want. I come up with a solution, I try and see you get what you want and what do you do? You twist it to say that I want you in some camp? Oh no, god forbid that I want you in any camp. I want to see you free my man, I want to see you get exactly what you want.

Yemen, my friend, Yemen, is the new conservative utopia! No laws, no regulations, free trade, take what you can, give nothing back, it's the conservative dream come true!

Originally posted by neo96




every single tool that americans has had in the past has been destroyed.

this country grew and thirved because the us was where the money was thats not the country we live in today.

And once again I have to call hyperbole and unmitigated BS.

America still has a strong and vibrant free enterprise system and literally thousands of entrepreneurs such as myself are taking advantage of it daily. A little capital, a little knowledge and a lot of awareness can make any American filthy rich if he is willing to put forth the effort.

And to address the second point....
If America has no money...how can we still enjoy one of the highest standards of living on the planet.
There is still an obscene amount of disposable income available to most citizens with jobs.
Open your eyes, I have never before seen so many huge, new SUV on the American roads.

neo96 and endisneigh should team up and move to Yemen together. It feels great to turn the conservative mantra "America love it or leave it" back on the people that used to shout it.

For the record I do plan on living in another country for at least part of the year. Not to escape taxes or the calamity that the conservatives want to see happen to this country but because I can afford it and I need a refreshing change where people dance in the street, drink, make love and party with a lust for life that seems to have escaped the American psyche. Hasta la vista

reply to post by whatukno


Oh, the ever pervailing argument of the statist, COMPROMISE.

Tell me oh Mr Compromise, when has the federal government EVER given up it's power?

Oh that would be NEVER.

So instead of having the slow crawl of the Repubs toward Dictatorship, we have the choice of full speed ahead dictatorship.

Oh, to keep you happy, we will call it Dictatorship by corporatocracy, does that make you feel better?

Tell me Mr Compromise, how can they include a NON RESCINDING component to health care?

So now, they THINK they can pass un Constitutional law and TELL US that we cannot rescind it.

Go peddle your wares where someone may purchase, you do not have the full force of the federal government to force us to purchase your crap.

It's hilarious to see people believe that making people pay more taxes will actually help the government do its job better, hahahahah!

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


ok man 250,000 listen up

250,000 - 87,500 for federal income tax left 162,000

then theres state income tax theres another 15-20,000 off that leaving 142,000

then the guy is paying for a house, a car, insurance ,PROPERTY TAXES, school tuition, clothing, and everything else you people are.


this guy was ever right to be complain to paying over 100,000 of that 250,000 lost in taxes.

in contrast someone making $25,000 how much do they pay?

they sure as hell dont pay hardly any.

apparently paying 35% of income is not good enough for you people

39% will not be either

its it that same kind of thinkING that lead to wilsons 70% income tax

people think they were over they arent they are still here

federal taxes
state taxes
local taxes

1 raises taxes they all do if for no other reason they can raise them.



if that 50% of americans pay no taxes whatsoever you have no right to tell someone who is paying taxes to do.

the government hasnt earned the right and you people HAVE NOT PAID the right to.

reply to post by neo96


So in this little fantasy world of yours poor people don't pay taxes?

They are sales tax exempt?
They get waivers for their property taxes (those lucky enough to own property)?
They don't have to pay ad valorem taxes?

These debates are always so much fun. Yes, in actual dollars a rich person would pay more than the impoverished each year in taxes. But the ratio of that tax to income is obscenely disproportionate.

reply to post by Hefficide


its not fantasy it is REALITY

the more you make you more you pay in taxes.

that guy is losing over half his income TO taxes and there are millions just like him.


what i dont get is why you think that you or the government are "entitled" to what he makes HE EARNED IT

you havent and the government hasnt so in REALITY who the hell are you or anyone for that fact to tell him what he should be paying.

and yeah "poor" people dont pay half as much as this dude or the many others like him


its fantasy think think anyone ANYONE making 25k 30k 50k is paying half as much as that guy

reply to post by Hefficide

Really? So you agree that we should rid ourselves of the income tax and implement something like the flat tax I propose? You know a consumption tax only.

Or are you just being facetious?

Originally posted by saltheart foamfollower
reply to post by Hefficide

 

Really? So you agree that we should rid ourselves of the income tax and implement something like the flat tax I propose? You know a consumption tax only.

Or are you just being facetious?

I happen to think that a rational form of flat tax is the most fair option.

Of course you do realize that a flat consumption tax would probably fall flat on its face though. The ultra rich would just start buying their luxury items from other nations which would, in reaction, opportunistically change their tax codes to suit the loopholes in the system you've suggested.

And suddenly Liberia might become the worlds leading supplier of Lear jets and yachts.

But a flat tax? Yes I do support an honest and realistic flat tax. It would benefit everyone.

reply to post by Hefficide


There we go, an honest and elaborate debate. To even things up I even suggest no sales taxes on foods, clothes under $100 and none on rental properties.

Eliminate all other taxation. No property tax, unlawful due to 5th amendment by the way. Set it up so that ALL foreign products sold here or shipped here after purchase, this sales tax is to apply. Eliminates all the trusts, foundations and lawyer backdoor ways of avoiding taxation. Also, our industry would flourish. People would not have to work their entire lives to continue paying taxes on what they already own. People would actually save money and assets and the currency problems would be solved. Trade deficits would mean nothing. Products sold here no matter where they were made would get the same taxation. We could maybe eliminate taxation on products sold overseas completely, talk about an industry BOOM, talk about an EXPLOSION!

We could eliminate trade agreements completely. All we say to the other countries, is that if you have taxes on the products we sell there, that is fine as long as it is completely the same as the taxes we put on ours. If they put more on, we just match theirs to ours.

Hell, I could write up this tax code in about 10 pages so simple a 3rd grader could understand.

reply to post by Redwookieaz


You are right...but I think they are more mad about the fact that he admits to making 250K+ and gripes about only having to rely of social security for retirement...

Seriously, Glen? I am lucky to make 1/5th of this, and I still have a good retirement plan going...I am betting that Glen has a lot of toys and material things instead of savings.

Forget Glen...he sounds as greedy as they come.

reply to post by neo96


Right...because no one in this country is against Obama and Pelosi

reply to post by Hefficide


That's fine, but how exactly are higher taxes going to help people in poverty or the middle class? Do you have any idea what the real problems are?

You do realize that higher tax collections, or forcing "rich" people to pay more taxes, will do absolutely nothing to fix the structural problems of this country, don't you?

Originally posted by Riposte
reply to post by Hefficide

 

That's fine, but how exactly are higher taxes going to help people in poverty or the middle class? Do you have any idea what the real problems are?

I never suggested that higher taxes benefit anyone. I did argue the BS assertion that the extremely wealthy are victims. And I also showed that poor people do, indeed, pay taxes.

Originally posted by Riposte

You do realize that higher tax collections, or forcing "rich" people to pay more taxes, will do absolutely nothing to fix the structural problems of this country, don't you?

That whole statement is a bit opportunistic and misleading. All I've advocated for is that the rich pay the taxes they always paid before republican presidents exempted them from the responsibility in the name of the false doctrine known as "trickle down" economics.

We've all been "trickled down" on now... and the results of this policy are woefully clear. Just turn on a TV or visit a community that isn't locked behind guarded gates and see the end results.

reply to post by Hefficide


Yes, progressive income taxation on individuals is always fair right?

Some people just do not get it. Once you get so rich, you no longer pay income tax. The uber rich and the mega corporations hide their income through their lawyers, trusts, foundations and the like.

Progressive taxation is the way of the uber rich to keep them in power and prestige.

Why is it that people shoot themselves in the foot on this very basic tenet.

Would you rather work for a small businessman or a damn mega corporation?

GEEZ!

Originally posted by neo96
apparently paying 35% of income is not good enough for you people
39% will not be either
its it that same kind of thinkING that lead to wilsons 70% income tax

You're constantly talking about the wars and tying them to Democratic Presidents. And now you've moved on to tax rates and associating them with Democratic Presidents. Why don't you ever mention what happened during Republican Presidencies?

Under Nixon the wealthiest had a 70% tax rate, practically the same under Wilson you just mentioned. And when Eisenhower was President the tax rate for the wealthiest Americans was above 90%. Even the conservative's beloved Reagan had it at 50% when he was President.