So, explain THIS, bilbical scholars (prove to me, it's not all hogwash)

reply to post by airspoon

Originally posted by airspoon
The bible and torah lost me at the lack of dinasours. There are just far too many things in Abrahmic theology that don't wash with what we now know about our surroundings. If you didn't understand the world in the way that we do today, then I could undertsand buying the whole story, however times have changed and so has our knowledge.

--airspoon

The problem with science and dinosaurs.... science needs them to be billions of years old...to be able to cling to their humanist religion of evolution...... no one knows the massive changes that occurred during the Great Flood... enough to kill all the Dino's and to bury them under the layers of crust?

read this chapter of JOB and tell me they didn't have dinosaurs..

Job 41:1 Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down? Job 41:2 Canst thou put an hook into his nose? or bore his jaw through with a thorn? Job 41:3 Will he make many supplications unto thee? will he speak soft words unto thee? Job 41:4 Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever? Job 41:5 Wilt thou play with him as with a bird? or wilt thou bind him for thy maidens? Job 41:6 Shall the companions make a banquet of him? shall they part him among the merchants? Job 41:7 Canst thou fill his skin with barbed irons? or his head with fish spears? Job 41:8 Lay thine hand upon him, remember the battle, do no more. Job 41:9 Behold, the hope of him is in vain: shall not one be cast down even at the sight of him? Job 41:10 None is so fierce that dare stir him up: who then is able to stand before me? Job 41:11 Who hath prevented me, that I should repay him? whatsoever is under the whole heaven is mine. Job 41:12 I will not conceal his parts, nor his power, nor his comely proportion. Job 41:13 Who can discover the face of his garment? or who can come to him with his double bridle? Job 41:14 Who can open the doors of his face? his teeth are terrible round about. Job 41:15 His scales are his pride, shut up together as with a close seal. Job 41:16 One is so near to another, that no air can come between them. Job 41:17 They are joined one to another, they stick together, that they cannot be sundered. Job 41:18 By his neesings a light doth shine, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning. Job 41:19 Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out. Job 41:20 Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron. Job 41:21 His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth. Job 41:22 In his neck remaineth strength, and sorrow is turned into joy before him. Job 41:23 The flakes of his flesh are joined together: they are firm in themselves; they cannot be moved. Job 41:24 His heart is as firm as a stone; yea, as hard as a piece of the nether millstone. Job 41:25 When he raiseth up himself, the mighty are afraid: by reason of breakings they purify themselves. Job 41:26 The sword of him that layeth at him cannot hold: the spear, the dart, nor the habergeon. Job 41:27 He esteemeth iron as straw, and brass as rotten wood. Job 41:28 The arrow cannot make him flee: slingstones are turned with him into stubble. Job 41:29 Darts are counted as stubble: he laugheth at the shaking of a spear. Job 41:30 Sharp stones are under him: he spreadeth sharp pointed things upon the mire. Job 41:31 He maketh the deep to boil like a pot: he maketh the sea like a pot of ointment. Job 41:32 He maketh a path to shine after him; one would think the deep to be hoary. Job 41:33 Upon earth there is not his like, who is made without fear. Job 41:34 He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride.

Originally posted by SquirrelNutz

shows a complete lack of understanding of how things were created.

So how were thing created?

Originally posted by airspoon
The bible and torah lost me at the lack of dinasours.

You'll find them in a book that was referenced in the bible... the Book of Enoch

reply to post by tspark


Wait, is this serious?!

The problem with science and dinosaurs.... science needs them to be billions of years old...

Nope, only MILLions.

...to be able to cling to their humanist religion of evolution

Because evolution makes SO much less sense than the biblical account, right?

.... no one knows the massive changes that occurred during the Great Flood...

Assuming that such an event ever occured (of course it has, many/several times, but doubtful as described in the bible) but, for arguments sake, I'll go with it, until...

enough to kill all the Dino's and to bury them under the layers of crust?

Whoopsie-daisy? What? The great flood killed the dinosaurs, now?

I'm confused by this post, and even more the ridiculous pasting of passages, immediately, following. (And, I particularly love it when advocates USE the bible to validate itself)

Originally posted by soleprobe

Originally posted by SquirrelNutz

shows a complete lack of understanding of how things were created.

So how were thing created?

I realize this was supposed to be a clever quip, short and sweet, but now you're just being obtuse.

You're not gonna be one of those, "We don't know, 'cause none of us were there", schleps, are you?

Let's at least start our discourse, thusly:

You agree that stars (and in particular, our SUN) were created before the planets, right? You may want to contend that they formed, simultaneously, but planetary systems are a result of star formation, not the other way around.

If you don't understand this, please tell me now, and I won't waste anymore keystrokes on this.

Originally posted by airspoon
reply to post by Esoteric Teacher

 

do you know that in the last 15 years scientist and archeologists have discovered ancient fossils that seem to prove that the first feathers on the planet evolved from dinosaurs.

Yes, I knew that, though there is a very good counter-argument against it, so it's hardly proof. However, proof or no proof, it still doesn't matter, seeing how the torah/bible puts man on the Earth in a matter of days. If dinasours existed long before man, then we obviously have a problem. Most Jews I talk to willingly admit this blunder and usually say something to the effect that men are sometimes wrong and the torah simply got it wrong. Most Christians on the other hand, say something to the effect that either science is wrong or their "days" could have been much longer, which again flies in the face of science.

--airspoon

No offense dude, but the word "dinosaur" wasnt even coined until the 1800s by Richard Owen, however dragons, and powerful and huge serpents are described over and over again, just because they do not use the modern terminology does not mean they are not there, which they are.. Those Jewish friends of yours need to read instrucion more closely and the writings too..
In another Jewish book called the book of Jasher/Yasher, it describes in surprising detail how "the watchers" did not only create the nephilim but also changed the animals by genetic manipulation, birds and fish into giants that torah calls "unclean animals"...

reply to post by SquirrelNutz

No, we do not KNOW how the universe was created, not even the solar system.. Interesting that you use the word "created" even though you do not belive it was...

I subscribe to the quantum simulation model which fits the bible description perfectly, and unlike most models, actually works.

Originally posted by Yissachar1


No offense dude, but the word "dinosaur" wasnt even coined until the 1800s by ...

no offense taken. please explain fully how time works.

thanks,
et

reply to post by Esoteric Teacher

Time is relative to speed, mass and density. The denser the object the slower time go by. Time is thermodynamics by another name. Basically, it is the medium by which hot travels to cold, high preassure to low preassure, its the medium that all information in the universe is transfered from one place to another and one form to another.

reply to post by tspark


So you say this fire breathing one-of-a-kind monster is a dinosaur ...

"Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron. Job 41:21 His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth."
Can you tell us which dinosaur breathes fire?

"Upon earth there is not his like"
Why is there only one "dinosaur" on Earth?

"Who can discover the face of his garment?"
So no-one has seen the "dinosaur" described here?

"He maketh the deep to boil like a pot: he maketh the sea like a pot of ointment."
Wouldn't that dampen his flames somewhat, or does he do it by remote control?


It's pretty obvious we're reading the ancient description of the ultimate Bogeyman here, a fantasy made to frighten children and gullables into line.

From the Concordia Commentary on Revelation:

4. Ì ´Á¬ºÉ½. . . º±Ä±Æ¬³· - The oldest reference to the devil depicts him as a serpent (é×à, Genesis 3). Later this serpent is located in the sea (Amos 9:3), a place of chaos. God did create great sea creatures which were good (Gen 1:21), but since the fall enormous sea creatures are often characterized as evil (e.g., Leviathan in Job 3:8 Is 27: 1). Leviathan and Rahab appear in the OT as names of the ancient serpent, the devil. For example, in Is 27:1 Leviathan is described as a serpent and sea monster whom Yahweh will slay. And in Ps 74:14 this sea monster Leviathan is said to have several heads. In Ps 89:9 - 10 (MT 89:10 - 11) Rahab is spoken of as inhabiting the sea when God crushed this enemy (cf. Is 51:9 - 10). In these references Leviathan and Rahab are names of a sea monster who is the devil, the ancient serpent.

Extrabiblical myths also contain a similar evil monster. The Babylonian myth Enuma Elish tells how Tiamat, the water monster, is cut in two by Marduk, the young god of light. In Canaanite lore the great seven - headed monster of the deep, the dragon, was known as Lotan/Litan, a form of Leviathan. In Egyptian lore the red dragon Set-Typhon pursues Isis and is later killed by tier son Horus. In Greek mythology the pregnant goddess Leto is pursued by the dragon Python. She gives birth to Apollo, who turns on the dragon and kills it.6

reply to post by Yissachar1


are you willing to entertain the idea that perhaps consciousness itself can be a variable in what time is, or have an effect on time?


thanks,
et

reply to post by SquirrelNutz


I understand what you are saying but you are just as wrong. Everything we know about the start of the universe is a theory just like religion. There is no way as of yet to prove either explanation. So everything is just a theory.

reply to post by Esoteric Teacher

That depends on how big that consciousness is.
Matter and energy are equivalant. As stated the denser the object, the more information, the slower time/thermodynamic processes take place. This passage of "time" however is also relative to the observer. Someone moving at close to the speed of light would observe your time moving at a different rate.
However you can speed up time quite naturally by adding more information to a system. By adding energy to an object you speed up its thermodynamic processes thus shortening its time. Eg setting something on fire causes the object to transfer information from one place to another and one form to another very quickly thus its time is speeded up.
If a star gets too big it will expend its information more quickly until it collapses into denser object that has more time because its thermodynamic processes have stopped (death). In other words the more information there is, the quicker a system will expend it untill it transforms into another form that does. Death in other words. This universes natural state.
The same applies to every single system in the universe. So you have to ask yourself if a huge collective consciousness is a good thing, who taught us it was a good thing, and why?

I believe that we have an enemy of our very souls who uses every trick to get us to destroy ourselves, this idea of collectiveness being one of them. I also believe that sin itself took the whole system out of balance to one of relativity and uneven thermodynamic processes that causes the universal natural state to be death.

Too much or to little information causes the system to crash. Just like you computer...

Originally posted by davidgrouchy

How many times do I have
to toss a ping pong ball against the wall
before it sticks?

That's right.
It _never_ sticks.

Accretion is not possible without chemistry.
Stickiness is a chemical property
that exerts influence on the
behavior of compounds.

im no astronomer or scientist but im going to take a few logical guesses to prove you wrong.


1. i dont think the scientific explanation EVER mentions space particles sticking because of an adhesive solution (such as glue) im sure its gravity...that holds them together....when a rock collides with earth...it stays here because of the earths gravity.

2. i may be wrong and smarter people will correct this but the basic process i think is.....

large clouds of dust particles in space have their own gravity. the force of this gravity forces the dust particles together where they begin to form solid objects all the while gravity increases. this object gathers more smaller objects and dust particles because of its gravity allowing it to grow larger and larger....eventually if it was lucky enough to not collide with a larger object than its self it becomes a planet orbiting its star...or traversing space untill a stars gravitational pull catches it and then it will orbit.

you need to take into account the speeds involved compared to your ping pong ball throwing...and the fact your ball is plastic...your wall is cement...im sure in space its a little different.

there was no adhesive involved.

Originally posted by Yissachar1
So you have to ask yourself if a huge collective consciousness is a good thing, who taught us it was a good thing, and why?

really good question.

I believe that we have an enemy of our very souls who uses every trick to get us to destroy ourselves, this idea of collectiveness being one of them.

if everything becomes one, then alone is what we would be, possibly. or ... if we are all one and still individually wrapped (so to speak) then are would we be less alone?

i don't have the answers to these questions. just think about it a little now and again.

thanks for sharing your thoughts about that,
et

reply to post by davidgrouchy

I've run the accretion methods

Phew. Are you okay with me addressing you as Lord God Almighty, then, or is there some other form of address You would prefer? Would bowing down before You show sufficient respect and abjection or do You require full prostration? I'm afraid I don't have a firstborn son, or even a flawless ewe lamb, but would You like me to sacrifice my dog to You? She's very precious to me, though I admit she does have a couple of birthmarks.

Colliding dust particles don't even build mud. They build nothing.

Up in the sky, you see that big bright shining thing?

Ever wonder how that got built?

Instead of running a lot of physics I'll just prove it by analogy.

Okay, I'll just go and sit under that apple tree over there till you're done.

How many times do I have to toss a ping pong ball against the wall before it sticks?

How many times do you have to toss it down to the floor before it sticks?

How does accretion make compounds again?

Who said anything about compounds?

Could it possibly be you're missing something here? Not God, but something else that begins with a G?

Originally posted by Astyanax
reply to post by davidgrouchy

 

I've run the accretion methods

Phew. Are you okay with me addressing you as Lord God Almighty, then, or is there some other form of address You would prefer? Would bowing down before You show sufficient respect and abjection or do You require full prostration? I'm afraid I don't have a firstborn son, or even a flawless ewe lamb, but would You like me to sacrifice my dog to You? She's very precious to me, though I admit she does have a couple of birthmarks.

Colliding dust particles don't even build mud. They build nothing.

Up in the sky, you see that big bright shining thing?

Ever wonder how that got built?

Instead of running a lot of physics I'll just prove it by analogy.

Okay, I'll just go and sit under that apple tree over there till you're done.

How many times do I have to toss a ping pong ball against the wall before it sticks?

How many times do you have to toss it down to the floor before it sticks?

How does accretion make compounds again?

Who said anything about compounds?

Could it possibly be you're missing something here? Not God, but something else that begins with a G?

Not gravity but the Casimir effect, which imo proves a universal inteligent design that shows that even the smallest none biological matter can coalesce into a working system in its own right such as a star?

Just a thought

God is a man made concept , and since the concept of GOD was created by man , therefore GOD is man made, we created god in our image!

Airspoon , again yoru right , if christianity states that god created everything in the universe , then why didnt the bible mention dinosaurs , , why also didnt it mention the different astronomical bodies. Why because the men or women that created the bible and christian god , didnt know that these things existed , so they left them out .

reply to post by Yissachar1


I have given up arguing with people who still believe we live in a "newtonian" universe. We have known for the last hundred years that this is not the case, but newtonian physics are taught as "Word of God" still in the halls of academia. I actually get a good laugh out of pseudo intellectuals who laugh at a theory because it is impossible according to Newtonian physics. One of their favorite lines is "Well....(insert theory) is impossible in a Newtonian universe. What universe do you live in?" (arrogant laughter insues). My reply "You're the one who doesn't know what kind of universe he lives in, because from Einstein, Braun, and Brown til' now we know damn good and well it isn't Newtonian. Still in the 16th century much?"

Newtonian physics work well as an elementary primer. They serve well for engineers, plumbers, and construction workers. Start trying to apply it to theoretical physics, and you look like a 5th grader who stumbled into a differential calculus class. Yet it is still "the" standard applied to everyones concepts. Yet any study into black body radiation, string theory, G theory, M theory, zero point energy etc... proves quickly that Newtonian physics do not apply beyond the Planck scale, and we are rapidly learning that what happens at that scale, and smaller has much more effect than previously thought.

Every generation thinks they are the smartest, brightest, and can't imagine anyone being smarter than we are now. Yet our standard of education(at least in physics) for the average person is about 100 years out dated. Most people can't even tell you what a quark, gluon, or a hadron is, or the difference between strong interaction, weak interaction, electrmagnetism, and gravitation. Yet they will critisize at the drop of a hat based on their powerful command of Newtonian physics, and high paid egg heads with a stack of paper degrees will laugh along with them, and agree, until a theoretical physicist, or someone versed in quantum chromodynamics sets them straight.

Originally posted by airspoon
The bible and torah lost me at the lack of dinasours.

--airspoon

The way someone explained it to me one day was this. When people start a fish tank, the first fish in the tank usually die. The tank isn't ready because it has to cycle for a bit, before it can sustain life. In order to get the right amount of bacteria, ammonia, nitrates, etc., you get starter fish. Fish that only last for a couple days to a week. They eat, poop, and die, to cycle the tank. when it's cycled, the fish live.

So applying that reasoning to creation makes sense to me. Before we were on this earth, it was being cycled for us by dinosaurs and who else knows what.