Revelation; The seven churches (have been promised)

Originally posted by St Udio
i would also say the 7 churches Also have relationship to the 7 'heads' of the beast
well at least the fallen parts of the churches...
why else are the true followers told to 'come out, of her'...& that even the elect will be deceived...

There's certainly a massive danger of "falling away", which I was considering in one of my other "Seven Churches" threads (the "have been warned against toleration" thread).
But "come out of her" actually relates to Babylon, and Babylon and the Beast are not quite the same thing. They have a big falling out with each other at the end of ch17.
So the "unfaithful church" is part of my understanding of the Harlot of Babylon. Only part, though.

Originally posted by DISRAELI



Finally, I take issue with the suggestion that this work has no practical application.
The promise of eternal Life, which is the theme of this thread, is a very practical issue.
The war with "evil", in general, is a practical issue.
And the most practical advice for a Christian involved in this war is contained in the title of this thread;
Revelation; Fear Not

edit on 13-9-2010 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)

there is no point in gaining eternal life. for what you gain you can also lose.
nothing is neither good nor evil except thinking makes it so.
you already have life, and according to your jesus he wants you to have it more abundantly. in other words, let go of your ego which is confining you and creating all sorts of desires like lusting after eternal life and your consciousness will expand to cosmic proportions.

remember the kingdom of heaven is already within you.

Originally posted by TarzanBeta

Originally posted by jennybee35
reply to post by DISRAELI

 

I would rather be a three-year old on the right path than an adept on the wrong path.

Well said, DISRAELI. This is where you lose most of them, however. Sad.

This statement of DISRAELI's is what makes me believe he is true.

DISRAELI is not concerned with politics, but with Truth.

You haven't lost me, friend.

but truth cannot be spoken about, only experienced.
absolutely

Originally posted by orangutang
remember the kingdom of heaven is already within you.

Since everybody seems intent on quoting that verse at me, I must point out that this "within you" understanding is based on a mistranslation.
The phrase is ENTOS HUMON- Luke ch17 v21.
HUMON means "you" in the plural.
He does not mean that the kingdom is within them as individuals.
He means that the kingdom is present among them, as a group.
"In the midst of you", in the best translations.

In support of that translation, I should point out that, in the context, Jesus was addressing the Pharisees. It cannot possibly have been his intention to suggest that the Pharisees themselves had the kingdom "within their hearts".

Originally posted by orangutang
but truth cannot be spoken about, only experienced.

If this were true, then all speech would become redundant.
If it were true, you need not have written a post to say so; we could have "experienced" it.
In fact it is simply not possible to experience all truth directly, and sometimes it must be learned.
Therefore only people who are full of pride will refuse to learn from others.
That is why the prophets of God and the disciples of Christ were instructed to speak the truth about God, as they had learned it.

Perhaps I have not made myself clear.

A few brief comments:

1) the origin of the 'fallen', dualistic consciousness is the 'movement' of self-reflection which is referred to as the "great dragon" or the "primeval serpent", and the devil and Satan.

2) a "serpent" is a reptile.

3) thus, the dualistic consciousness of the "self" and the 'thinker' is a 'reptilian' consciousness.

4) the non-dualistic consciousness Created 'by and in the image of God' is the human consciousness.

5) the War of the Sons of Light and the Sons of Darkness occurs at the level of consciousness, being a conflict between the self-created 'reptilian' consciousness and the human consciousness Created by God.

6) this is a planet ruled by the 'reptilian' consciousness; in which all positions of power, whether in the media, the political establishment, or the religious establishment, are held by people with a 'reptilian' consciousness.

7) the ultimate manifestation of the 'reptilian' consciousness is all manner of the violence that you see on this planet; including throughout the Middle East and the conflict over Jerusalem.

8) the Satanic doctrines of the Jewish, Christian and Muslim religious 'authorities' are of the 'reptilian' consciousness; they have been specifically created by the Jewish, Christian and Muslim religious 'authorities' to oppose the thoughts of God.

As Isaiah wrote as a consequence of and pertaining to the Revelation of the "resurrection": "My thoughts are not your thoughts and My ways are not your ways. As high as the heavens are above the earth are My thoughts above your thoughts." (from memory)

The use of the word "Way" in the Thanksgiving Hymns of the Dead Sea Scrolls--"...of the way of Thy heart" [the Jewish religious officials say] 'It is not the Way."-- is, thus, a code-word reference to the Revelation of the "resurrection" as is the use of the word "heart". ("I seal this Revelation in the heart of my disciples."--Isaiah 8:16)

In terms of the 10 phonetic tones, the Long A phonetic tone of "way" is experienced in the Fourth Church of the Revelation of John, which is the fourth chakra of kundalini.

The phonetic analysis, in English, of Jesus's statement that he is "the Way, the Truth and the Life" is to be understood as follows:

"I am the Way" signifies I am the Resurrection. (the Fourth Church)

"I am the Truth" signifies I am the Law, the Law being considered the fundamental Truth of Judaism (the First Church).

"I am the Life" signifies "I am the Son of man" (the Seventh Church).

This is also an echo of the "Tree of Life" in Genesis 3:24, which is another symbol for the Vision of the "Son of man".

These are also, though not in sequential order, the Three Phases of the War of the Sons of Light.

Those who have the ears to hear, let them listen.

Michael Cecil

Originally posted by Michael Cecil
As Isaiah wrote as a consequence of and pertaining to the Revelation of the "resurrection": "My thoughts are not your thoughts and My ways are not your ways. As high as the heavens are above the earth are My thoughts above your thoughts." (from memory)

Your references to Isaiah are being misapplied, because you're ignoring the context.

In the first place, the quotation above is not about your imagined "revelation of the resurrection". Isaiah does not say that it is. It is about God's willingness to forgive with generosity, a thought which is also at the heart of the gospels;
"Seek the Lord while he may be found, call upon him while he is near;
Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts;
Let him return to the Lord, that he may have mercy on him,
And to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
Neither are your ways my ways, says the Lord"- Isaiah ch55 vv6-8

You see? In the context, the thought which God is disavowing is the thought that pardon should not be given "abundantly".
Then the prophet continues talking about salvation.
This passage is about the forgiveness and reconciliation offered by God, and if you use it for any other purpose you are misusing it.

Similarly the passage in Isaiah ch8 v16, about sealing up the teaching.
In the context, this is about God's willingness to save, and the importance of trusting in God.
It is the introduction to the famous passage about "Unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given".

All you're doing is working up ideas of your own, bringing them to the Bible, and trying to make the Bible fit them. That's not the way to do it.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
Since everybody seems intent on quoting that verse at me, I must point out that this "within you" understanding is based on a mistranslation.
The phrase is ENTOS HUMON- Luke ch17 v21.
HUMON means "you" in the plural.
He does not mean that the kingdom is within them as individuals.
He means that the kingdom is present among them, as a group.
"In the midst of you", in the best translations.

In support of that translation, I should point out that, in the context, Jesus was addressing the Pharisees. It cannot possibly have been his intention to suggest that the Pharisees themselves had the kingdom "within their hearts".

Greetings my friend,

I have been watching your thread with great interest. Here I found a moment to insert a thought for your consideration. I am not asking you to relinquish your own thought on the matter, but to consider my own, then dismiss it or use it how you see fit.

"You" was spoken as a plural. It meant you, the Pharisees, every Man God created.

Heaven is within us all, it is without us all. It is right before our eyes and we fail to see it. Why?

Because we judge. We judge that this world is not heaven. We judge that heaven is NOT within us.

Everyone of us has eyes to see this world, everyone of us has a mind to comprehend this wonderful creation. It is a Heaven or a hell based on our own Judgement of it and our fellow Man.

Judge not, Love all, be at peace.

With Love,

Your Brother

I believe the churches represent the ages as well but the Word of God is a fiery sword turning every which way. The visions are the things that were, the things that are and the things to come.

Right now a Laodicean can see his end, change his mind and be a Philadelphian instead. In terms of ages too, why would we be so relaxed to be found spit out? The Laodicean age in terms of eras, cannot have not started yet. Although I feel it to be very soon.

After the sixth seal is opened, there is a great earthquake. If this is the same earthquake that happens right after the witnesses are killed then I would think this marks the beginning of the seventh age. The Laodicean era.

Originally posted by IAMIAM
Heaven is within us all, it is without us all. It is right before our eyes and we fail to see it. Why?
Because we judge. We judge that this world is not heaven. We judge that heaven is NOT within us...
It is a Heaven or a hell based on our own Judgement of it and our fellow Man.

Thank you for that contribution.
My first thought is that it cannot just be a question of "judging", because there are things around us in the world which are decidedly not of God and not of heaven. The old "problem of evil" question.
Judging everything as "heaven" is not going to make the evil disappear.
So the question at the heart of Revelation- and really at the heart of the Bible- is what God can do to make evil objectively disappear, leading up to what is described in the last chapters- "neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away".

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by IAMIAM
Heaven is within us all, it is without us all. It is right before our eyes and we fail to see it. Why?
Because we judge. We judge that this world is not heaven. We judge that heaven is NOT within us...
It is a Heaven or a hell based on our own Judgement of it and our fellow Man.

Thank you for that contribution.
My first thought is that it cannot just be a question of "judging", because there are things around us in the world which are decidedly not of God and not of heaven. The old "problem of evil" question.
Judging everything as "heaven" is not going to make the evil disappear.
So the question at the heart of Revelation- and really at the heart of the Bible- is what God can do to make evil objectively disappear, leading up to what is described in the last chapters- "neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away".

Yes my friend, there is evil all around us. It stems from judging. God refuses to usurp our will. He has made it clear from the very beginning what he wanted from us "go forth and multiply".

He did not ask us to judge, he did not ask us to usurp each others will. Simply multiply in peace. It is when we deviate from that, that we have conflict.

Many messengers have come through the ages trying to get us back to this basic understanding. Hopefully we will realise it soon. But, not until we go through a dreadful time of tyranny. It is coming. And, it is through this tyranny that we will once again realise we cannot rule each other. God gave us all freewill. We must learn how to have that while allowing all to have it.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

I am just planting seeds. They will grow under tyranny. When the season is ripe, then I will harvest.

With Love,

Your Brother

reply to post by DISRAELI


Very good interpretation. Did not Emmanuel Swedenborg also speak about the seventh church, the coming church that would be persecuted by the dragon and then take over the whole world and separate evil from good people? Led by a man of flesh and blood from China?
Nostradamus predicted the persecution would occur in july 1999. Edgar Cayce said the cradle of christianity would be in China and the battle between good and evilwould start in 1999....

Which spiritual movement are we talking about, the only one that fits the description?

Yes, Falun Dafa, spread to 100 million people in 7 years, never seen in mankind´s history, coming from the center of the earth, China...

People should think again and check more facts and use religion and prophecies with a purpose, of improving themselves.

reply to post by Gaussq

But Falun Dafa cannot be any kind of church, in the Christian sense, because it is not a Christian faith.
Revelation is a Biblical book, relating to the Christian religion, so Falun Dafa cannot enter into it (except possibly as part of the background of ch17). Since Falun Dafa is not a Biblical faith, it comes under the warning of the first commandment in Exodus ch29;
"I am the Lord your God, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage, and you shall have no other gods but me".

reply to post by DISRAELI


Who said Revelation is about the Christian church? Falun Dafa is said to become the seventh church after judgment day arrives and the maze is broken. Some prophecies are pointing to 2019 but only one person will call the shots about the date.

Revelation cptr is about the Kings arriving from the east with the 200 miilion horsemen etc etc as is said in the Bible. People have a notion that Jesus Christ will come back. Well, at the end of the day only the Lord of all Lords can rectify this whole place. Jesus had an impact in the west, Buddha Sakyamuni in the east, Lao Zi in China. They all are at Tataghata level(first Buddha level). The Lord of all Lords is infinitely more powerful and the only one who managed to assemble hundreds of millions of followers to his teaching while still being down here incarnated in flesh and blood.

I use to say, if one knows his statistics and history one will have a very profound look at Falun Dafa(based on Truth-Compassion-Forbearance), it is a practice of body, mind and soul and must be experienced before one makes judgments.

Originally posted by Gaussq
Who said Revelation is about the Christian church?

The fact that Revelation is a book within the Christian Bible says that Revelation is about the Christian church.
The fact that Revelation is centred upon the person of Jesus Christ says that Revelation is about the Christian Church.
The Bible as a whole relates only to the Biblcal Creator God, in which Falun Dufa dioes not believe.
The New Testament, including Revelation, relates only to the person of Jesus Christ, in whm Falun Dufa does not believe.
A church is an assembly of people believing in Christ- that is what the word means.
Since Falun Dufa does not believe in Christ, it cannot be any kind of church.
From the viewpoint of Biblical revelation, it counts as a false religion, published by false teachers.
Therefore the only place for Falun Dufa in Revelation would be as part of the golden cup of "abominations" being offered by the Harlot of Babylon, or in connection with the work of the "foul spirits like frogs" mentioned in ch16.
Or perhaps your leader is a possible candidate for the role of Antichrist.

So your attempts to advertise your religion in your own threads have been such a dismal failure that you have decided to hitch a free ride on a Christian topic instead and do your advertising there?
So your teaching is now going to have a kind of parasitical existence on somebody else's thread?
Just don't expect to be made welcome.

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by Gaussq
Who said Revelation is about the Christian church?

The fact that Revelation is a book within the Christian Bible says that Revelation is about the Christian church.
The fact that Revelation is centred upon the person of Jesus Christ says that Revelation is about the Christian Church.



From the viewpoint of Biblical revelation, it counts as a false religion, published by false teachers.
Therefore the only place for Falun Dufa in Revelation would be as part of the golden cup of "abominations" being offered by the Harlot of Babylon, or in connection with the work of the "foul spirits like frogs" mentioned in ch16.
Or perhaps your leader is a possible candidate for the role of Antichrist.

www.newadvent.org...

(condemn the source if you feel the need...but its been published, edited, by centuries of scholars / theology experts)... i cite this detemination of just what the term 'CHURCH' refers to":

The term church (Anglo-Saxon, cirice, circe; Modern German, Kirche; Swedish, Kyrka) is the name employed in the Teutonic languages to render the Greek ekklesia (ecclesia), the term by which the New Testament writers denote the society founded by Our Lord Jesus Christ.

The derivation of the word has been much debated.


It is now agreed that it is derived from the Greek kyriakon (cyriacon), i.e. the Lord's house, a term which from the third century was used, as well as ekklesia, to signify a Christian place of worship. This, though the less usual expression, had apparently obtained currency among the Teutonic races. The Northern tribes had been accustomed to pillage the Christian churches of the empire, long before their own conversion. Hence, even prior to the arrival of the Saxons in Britain, their language had acquired words to designate some of the externals of the Christian religion.

however in more recent historical times a 'Church' is any group meeting focused on the spiritual or religious memes.

ergo a Church is not exclusively 'christian' any more, according to the laws of the land.
~ my once GF was a Priestess in the 'Church of Tsadi', there's also the Church of Satan that exists,
also many 'Churches' are prefaced with the sects name... Church of God, Church of the poisened mind,
Baptist Church, Penticostal Church , etc etc etc

The term 'church' no longer has the same uniqueness as in the 1st century AD, the term has been assimilated into every culture... & if viewed in the prophetic sense (as in REV.) the term includes all the luke warm congregations that abound/proliforate here in the end-times---IOW the term 'Church' has no esteemed place except in the very limited meaning to the true faithful groups, that dwell among the apostolics in todays' churches.

all-in-all.... the thread is revealing that the great 'falling away' in in hyper-drive, the 7 churches are in reality a modern version of the 'synagogs-of-satan' that jesus was lambasting in his days on Earth

Originally posted by St Udio
however in more recent historical times a 'Church' is any group meeting focused on the spiritual or religious memes.

For the purposes of the immediate discussion, what matters is what the word means in the context of the writing of Revelation.
In that context, Christ is writing in these letters to communities of people belonging to Christ and encouraging them to remain loyal to Christ, or rebuking them for failure to remain loyal to Christ.
Therefore they cannot relate to communities which have never belonged to Christ.
The whole point of this book is that it is a specifically Christian book.
Other religions come into it only as dangers which Christians are being taught to avoid.

Incidentally, the Catholic source you cited would agree with that assessment.
I can't see that it detaches "Church" from "Christ" at any point in the article.

reply to post by St Udio

why else are the true followers told to 'come out, of her'...& that even the elect will be deceived...

Matthew 24:24 (King James Version)

24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

The elect won't be decieved.

reply to post by DISRAELI

For those who assume that you have any Knowledge whatsoever about the Revelation of John, which you do not, I would suggest that your lack of Knowledge about that Revelation can actually be clearly demonstrated by your lack of any real knowledge about the non-dualistic consciousness and the dualistic consciousness.

The Revelation of John is, of course, not a book at all, but a Revelation, first of all.

And what is that Revelation?

The Vision of the "Son of man" and the Revelation of the "resurrection". (In a way much too complicated for you to understand, each of these Revelations is intimately intertwined with the other; although one, in fact, has to do with the Creation of the universe and the other has to do with the Creation of man and the reality of the memories of previous lives.)

And, one of the crucial elements of Knowledge conveyed by these Revelations is that there is a third, non-dualistic, dimension of consciousness.

I see, from some of the statements you have made on this thread, that you are snarlingly attempting to defend this thread of yours tooth and nail against those who have a much broader and deeper understanding, if not Knowledge, of this kind of writing than you have.

So, in order to get around that specific kind of reaction, I would suggest that you join me in a discussion on the "Philosophy and Metaphysics" forum about the 3 dimensions of consciousness in which there can be a discussion of things which you do not see in your Bible; but which are there nevertheless.

Michael Cecil

reply to post by Michael Cecil

The Revelation of John is, of course, not a book at all, but a Revelation, first of all.

Revelation 22:19 (King James Version)

19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book