State of the Truth Movement 2010

Some of you here will know me, some will not. It's been nearly a year at this point since I have posted on ATS but I would like to think that I was at least somewhat notable as a prominent 'debunker' during my time here.

It's now been more than 9 years since the terrible events we all discuss, and it would seem that the debate still exists and has not moved on for a few years.

The reason I have started this topic is as a companion topic to one I posted on the Loose Change forums a number of years ago. I stated my desires for the future of the Truth Movement, and that included a concerted fundraiser to carry out the experiments that NIST are so often criticised for not conducting.

I can see that that has not happened, and in fact not much seems to have happened in the last year or so, save for the formation of some new groups which seem to be doing nothing useful at all.

So, my question to you dear forum members, is "what happens next"?

Where does the Truth Movement go from here? Is it too late to start collecting funds to carry out these experiments? Should more effort be put into coming up with a coherent hypothesis? Has a coherent hypothesis been produced and I have missed it in my absence?

I would prefer not to debate any specifics about 911 in this thread, this is more about where the Truth Movement is going in the next year, and how you think things should proceed. I look forward to the responses.

The "truth" movement will continue as it has.
It is a cottage industry to sell books and videos. It's members will continue in their self righteous rambling, more BS will be added to the present mythology ( to sell new books and DVD's), the whole thing has already become like the moon landing conspiracy or the JFK assasination, just a genre for conspiacy fans.
If anything were proof, or even close to proof of an "inside job", we would know it by now. Oh sure, you guys will say there is proof. Please don't post your boring "research" I can read that crap in the 9/11 forum if I want to.
Facts and reason are not on the truthers side. It's just another moderm myth.

Originally posted by exponent
I was at least somewhat notable as a prominent 'debunker' during my time here.

Where does the Truth Movement go from here?

You're not even a truther. Why do you care?

I think a lot of you debunkers have an unhealthy obsession with truthers. I recommend seeking some counseling just to make sure it hasn't turned into a real health problem.

Originally posted by OldDragger
Facts and reason are not on the truthers side. It's just another moderm myth.

I agree, but I feel the least we can do as sceptics is to put forward helpful suggestions to move investigation onwards. For example, I don't believe there is any evidence of thermite involvement on 911, but I would be more than willing to accept it if a mechanism was researched and established, and provided an explanation for evidence.

As far as I know, the same evidence exists now as it did when I last left, a paper published through dubious means in an open journal that conducted no tests to confirm their theory to any substantive level. This is unacceptable, and improving on this would only improve the truther case, even if I still find it quite implausible.

Originally posted by ATH911
You're not even a truther. Why do you care?

I think a lot of you debunkers have an unhealthy obsession with truthers. I recommend seeking some counseling just to make sure it hasn't turned into a real health problem.

See my post above. Also, this is the first time I have posted on this forum for well over a year excluding two threads I got interested in about 11 months ago.

If i'm obsessed, I'm doing a pretty good job of dealing with it

Man, it's funny these "debunkers" will steer clear of any thread that smashes their fairy tale, but then when you have an opinion thread like this they're the first ones to show up to spout their garbage!

Get back in the technical threads if you "debunkers" want to "debunk" something. Go on, go ahead! Old Dragger!



The "truth movement" has never been an organized movement. Only "debunkers" try to paint it like it is, just so they can point out all the nonsense that this fallacious reasoning would necessarily imply if it were actually logical.

It has always consisted of many individuals, and now many organizations that act independently of each other, the only common denominator being that they all disagree with government reports and want better ones.

The general trend in the last years has been that these organizations have all grown in membership, more organizations have formed, and more individuals by the polls are disowning the government reports and suspecting cover-ups and insider conspiracies.

Based on that, and by all recent indications, this will continue.

Within the last year radio exposure has increased, advertising over-all has increased thanks most of all to AE911 and all the money they raise and spend on advertisements and conferences and other media attention.

I too wish more people would actually spend time performing physical experiments. This has been happening too though recently, and there's a thread here called "AE911 engineer does what NIST engineers couldn't with millions" or along those lines, showing one such physical experiment being conducted that totally refutes a common "debunker" argument.


Old Dragger, why didn't you post on THAT thread? You don't have to tell me, I already know. Because you can't revive that dead horse now, and it's just going to get the hell beat out of it from now on. It has been proven that crushed-up drywall did not cause the sulfur to eat through steel and cause the inter-granular melting FEMA reported.

More of this will follow until we start cracking down onto what actually did happen, instead of constantly having to refute what did not happen.

Originally posted by bsbray11
I too wish more people would actually spend time performing physical experiments. This has been happening too though recently, and there's a thread here called "AE911 engineer does what NIST engineers couldn't with millions" or along those lines, showing one such physical experiment being conducted that totally refutes a common "debunker" argument.

Uh, I'm not sure if I am mistaking this, or if this is a joke I am not getting.

I got linked to a video that I believe is from this thread by a friend for mocking purposes. This was someone crushing up some drywall, placing it on a steel beam, burning it for a period and then claiming because there was no detectable eutectic corrosion there was no way it could have happened in the towers right?

That was about as far away from an actual experiment as it's possible to be, and not only did they fail to reproduce anything at all, a negative result in an experiment such as this, does not disprove a theory based on analysis.

Anyway, I said I would prefer not to debate specific issues in this thread, and perhaps I shall visit that thread later on to check it out. I appreciate your desire for more physical experiments, but in keeping with the intent of this thread, perhaps you could specify some particular ones? If we could come to an agreement on procedures and protocols, then we have advanced your cause somewhat!

As an addendum, I don't intend to refer to the truth movement as one homogeneous group, but I am constantly criticised for whatever terminology I use, 'truthers' is admonished as hateful, 'conspiracy theorists' as an implication, 'Truth Movement' as inaccurate etc. I do the best I can.

Originally posted by bsbray11
Man, it's funny these "debunkers" will steer clear of any thread that smashes their fairy tale, but then when you have an opinion thread like this they're the first ones to show up to spout their garbage!

Agreed and when seeing them spout that we haven't produced a single shred of evidence, it always conjures up this pic:

reply to post by ATH911


Can you please take heed of the original post and suggest what future direction the Truth Movement as a whole should take?

Originally posted by exponent
reply to post by ATH911

 

Can you please take heed of the original post and suggest what future direction the Truth Movement as a whole should take?

Again...

WHY DO YOU CARE????????????????????

Originally posted by ATH911
Again...

WHY DO YOU CARE????????????????????

I've already explained why I care. If you don't want to advance your cause then that's fine, but I believe that a lot of the members of this board do want to see their theories proven and the people who are responsible in their eyes brought to justice.

Why do you have a problem with me supporting this?

Originally posted by OldDragger
The "truth" movement will continue as it has.
It is a cottage industry to sell books and videos. It's members will continue in their self righteous rambling, more BS will be added to the present mythology ( to sell new books and DVD's), the whole thing has already become like the moon landing conspiracy or the JFK assasination, just a genre for conspiacy fans.
If anything were proof, or even close to proof of an "inside job", we would know it by now. Oh sure, you guys will say there is proof. Please don't post your boring "research" I can read that crap in the 9/11 forum if I want to.
Facts and reason are not on the truthers side. It's just another moderm myth.

You're right, we do know it now. It took me a while to come around, but I did.

reply to post by ATH911


You're the one that seems agitated!
A question was asked, some of us posted opinions you don't like and are disturbed by!
Why don't you adress the OP rather than get angry with those you are intolerant to, the one's that just don't see it your way?
THIS is why I rarely post in the 0/11 forums. It's FULL of looney, angry, self righteous dogmatic "believers" that cannot tolerate any disagreement!

Originally posted by OldDragger
Facts and reason are not on the truthers side. It's just another moderm myth.

Is that so? You might be interested to know that the official conspiracy theory is not based on fact either. NIST used guesses, theories, and calculations to come up with their report. NIST's theories and calculations may be sufficient enough for you, but it's not for truthers or the victims' families.

The FBI has also stated that there is no hard evidence linking bin Laden to 9/11. So, when a news organization or other figurehead invokes bin Laden's name, you should ask them "where's the proof that bin Laden had anything to do with 9/11?" If the FBI says there's no proof, yet people still invoke bin Laden's name, don't you think there's some other political reason why bin Laden's name is being invoked?




As far as the OP, I'm not sure why you even care. Prominent debunker? Bahhaha Trying to give yourself a big head? Wow...

Originally posted by _BoneZ_
As far as the OP, I'm not sure why you even care. Prominent debunker? Bahhaha

Trying to give yourself a big head?

Wow...

I explained that in this thread too. Plus I didn't exactly big myself up, I just said people might remember me as I posted here a lot. This is my second ever thread on these forums, I've hardly got an ego problem.

I think the 9/11 truth movement, like the study of the JFK assassination is largely an academic exercise at this point. It would take a massive social upheaval for real legal action to be taken in both cases. Both crimes involve extremely serious allegations against persons and institutions at or near the heart of American society, government and power.

The suspected institutions and persons have millions of dependants and supporters among the American population. Consequently, millions of Americans who had nothing whatsoever to do with any criminal activity have a strong vested interest in making sure that Americans accused of these crimes face no serious investigation and certainly no charges.

After WW2 French society was deeply divided between so called "collaborators" and those who wouldn't play ball with the Nazis. This issue was never settled in a comprehensive way. An assistant to a former (communist) mayor of Marseilles told me personally, in 1975, that one half of the country would like to line the other half up and shoot them. Obviously that didn't happen. Should it have?

Should the collaborators have been shot, in their millions, in France? Would France be a better country for it?

No. Of course not.

France has had several bloodbaths over the centuries, the most famous one being the "reign of terror" during the French revolution. Similarly, America had it's bloodbath during the civil war. Civil war resentment still lingers in the country. Recently, I was thinking, "It hasn't been that long since the Civil War." I was a young boy in the early 1960's and the Civil War was only a hundred or so years prior to that. In 2039 it will be a hundred years since WW2 broke out. These are not long times.

I don't think America wants a bloodbath in the country, even to stop the rise of corporatism/fascism, the force behind both 9/11 and the assassination of JFK, not to mention the incredible war crime that is the war in Iraq.

If Americans, in their own electoral districts step up the pace in sending crooked congressmen, lobbyists and contractors to jail, and try to get some control over the "wag the dog" syndrome in American policy making, I will be satisfied, as a 9/11 truther, that we have made a difference and gotten Americans to wake up to the corruption in their midst and it's dangers.

But a word of warning. If Americans themselves do not act, to control the forces of corporatism in their society, some other combination will arise, as it did in the case of Nazi Germany, to bring the rampage to an end.

Originally posted by exponent
Uh, I'm not sure if I am mistaking this, or if this is a joke I am not getting.

I got linked to a video that I believe is from this thread by a friend for mocking purposes. This was someone crushing up some drywall, placing it on a steel beam, burning it for a period and then claiming because there was no detectable eutectic corrosion there was no way it could have happened in the towers right?

No, that is not what I'm talking about.

I already told you the thread name. I guess I'll have to link it to you too.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

In case that is still troubling, here is the video itself:

Originally posted by exponent
I've already explained why I care. If you don't want to advance your cause then that's fine, but I believe that a lot of the members of this board do want to see their theories proven and the people who are responsible in their eyes brought to justice.

Why do you have a problem with me supporting this?

Probably because you don't actually support it and we all know it.

It's like George Bush saying he wanted full investigation, and then turn around and stonewall the Kean Commission after holding about 2 months before initiating any investigation at all.

Originally posted by bsbray11
Probably because you don't actually support it and we all know it.

It's like George Bush saying he wanted full investigation, and then turn around and stonewall the Kean Commission after holding about 2 months before initiating any investigation at all.

I am not a politician, nor do I have any vested interest in either side of this debate. Why wouldn't I support this? It seems rather rude of you to claim to know my beliefs.

I have responded in the other thread regarding that video, in an attempt to keep this thread clear of debate over 911 specifics.

reply to post by exponent


Well look at it this way. US leaders don't ask Chinese leaders for instruction, for good reason. It is a conflict of interest.

It's also a conflict of interest to be commenting on what a "truth movement" should or shouldn't do, when you aren't even involved with it and in fact disagree with basically everything anyone associated with it says.

A conflict of interest (COI) occurs when an individual or organization is involved in multiple interests, one of which could possibly corrupt the motivation for an act in the other.

en.wikipedia.org...

Conflict of interest = bad news.