Non Partisan response selling out America, oh how things have changed.

In the wake of the koran burning inncident that has so polarized the world lately, some interesting things were observed world wide. Our government was held hostage by a group of people with a very anti American agenda, throught he fear of retaliation for the burning of a book. I'm not going to get into the who islam is evil thing, they haven proven it time and time again.....this week alone was enough. However some things happened I'd have never expected.
I did expect Obama to crumble, no surprise there, but what did surprise me was the right crumbled just like the left. We actually had partisan support for giving up American rights and cowering before our enemy. I never thought I'd see that in a million years, we had partisan support on something, too bad it was this and on such a level, and in such a dishonorable way.
We also learned that one man can have an insignifigant thing blown out of proportion by the media and the world will respond. Sensationalism at it's finest, I can't think of a better case, it involved world leaders, religious leaders, as well as the everyday man on the street.......the media was finally shown for the master manipulators they are and boy did they bring their A game.
I guess in the end the right and the left can get along......as long as it's a wholesale sell out of our constitution. Good job guys, can't wait to see you face the next crisis, you'll fold so quick it's not even funny, and now the world knows it, thanks once again for emboldening our enemies.

I think you summed up the situation perfectly. From now on, every action of anyone in this country will be measured by the perceived world wide muslim response. Despicable.

reply to post by ATMtech


Quite a leap there since not "every action of anyone in this country" is purposefully trying to offend a over a billion people in this world.

With rights comes responsibilities. Choosing not to go ahead with the burning was the responsible thing to do. Not only that, but there's nothing "Christian" about purposefully trying to offend over a billion people either; so maybe God told him not to do it.

Violence is the answer. If you're violent enough people wouldn't have the courage to express their disrespect for you.

reply to post by redmage


Ah, but to those overseas rioting and threatening to kill Americans on sight, it must be all Americans who did this. Can't have it both ways, they took action based up the precept that all Americans are responsible, kinda like you're arguement in reverse. At any rate, this has nothing to do with the topic at hand the non partisan selling out of America by our own government.

Originally posted by adifferentbreed
Ah, but to those overseas rioting and threatening to kill Americans on sight, it must be all Americans who did this.

Have you asked them, or are you simply making assumptions based on a minority group of extremists?

Originally posted by adifferentbreed
Can't have it both ways, they took action based up the precept that all Americans are responsible, kinda like you're arguement in reverse.

I don't see the comparison to my statements. Again, have you asked them, or are you simply making assumptions?

Originally posted by adifferentbreed
At any rate, this has nothing to do with the topic at hand the non partisan selling out of America by our own government.

I don't see how making a responsible choice is "selling out America".

There was bi-partisan support condemning Jones' plan. I don't see why you're so shocked that conservatives would urge him not to go through with his plan. Most conservatives consider themselves Christians, and there's absolutely nothing Christ-like about purposefully trying to offend over a billion people.

My personal opinion is this was entirely a publicity stunt, by Jones, to make a few bucks.

However, related to your thread, I can't help but wonder if this whole situation had been presented in a different manner, by Jones.

How would the left had reacted, if Jones had declared his burning of the Quran as an "artistic endeavor"? You know, kind of like the the Andres Serrano's photograph titled "Piss Christ", from the late 1980's. The "artist" placed a crucifix in a jar of urine and photographed it. en.wikipedia.org...

Hell, he even received $15,000 for his efforts, some of which came from the National Endowment for the Arts (NEA - which receives about 13% of its funding from the government)

en.wikipedia.org... and www.nea.gov...

Had Jones merely rephrased the purpose of burning the Qurans, he might actually have received support from the left. But, on the other hand, he did choose the wrong religion to target. Had the bonfire been constructed of Bibles and Torahs...Now that would have been a party, the left wouldn't have missed!

Of course, I believe the freedom of expression shouldn't be interpreted as freedom to be a jackass, with no consequences.

reply to post by WTFover


While I agree his actions were certainly a publicity stunt (he does have a book out), I'm having a hard time understanding the relevance of the thought experiment in the rest of your post.

The notion put forth in the thread is that the event had bi-partisan condemnation. Which it did, and still does. It's not a left/right issue since it seems that the majority on both sides are in agreement that the plan was in poor taste; so trying to focus on either specific side seems to be a non-issue, and making unfounded assumptions like "Had the bonfire been constructed of Bibles and Torahs...Now that would have been a party, the left wouldn't have missed!" certainly seem out of place in any objective conversation of the current state of affairs.

reply to post by redmage


And there is nothing American about stifling American rights to appease a group of people like these......check the link and get back to me, I think the one idiot expresses it best when he wrote in a pamphlet "And it is Americans who are doing this," the pamphlet said. "This is the brutal policy of the enemy of Muslims." Surely he must be wrong as Obama plainly pointed out that we are not at war with islam, I guess he didn't get the pamphlet....I'm sure his stance will change after reading since they seem to dictate our policies now.



news.yahoo.com...

reply to post by redmage


You have your opinion and I have mine. My post addresses the thought processes behind the "bi-partisan" condemnation and that subtle changes would have drastically changed the balance of support.

It is one thing to just say "Yep, there was bi-partisan condemnation" "Yep, there sure was". What becomes important is, after recognizing that opposing groups agree on a given topic, to examine the rationalization of the stances. Do you disagree with that?

Originally posted by adifferentbreed
reply to post by redmage

 

Ah, but to those overseas rioting and threatening to kill Americans on sight, it must be all Americans who did this. Can't have it both ways, they took action based up the precept that all Americans are responsible, kinda like you're arguement in reverse. At any rate, this has nothing to do with the topic at hand the non partisan selling out of America by our own government.

That seems like a completely different problem. The Koran applies to all Muslims. Burning it would offend all Muslims. Wouldn't that make the good Muslims out of the Billion out there a little hurt they their book is being burned because of things they did not do? If they think that one man or 50 people burning the Koran is representative of all Americans then I can understand why all Muslims would then hate all Americans.

The thing is, while I understand the result I also understand that it takes a lack of understanding, education, and perception to not understand that not all Americans are burning Korans. Going by your post, it seems you are saying that since some people are ignorant and myopic, we should be too. Is that what Americans strive for? To reach to be the lowest common denomonator?

Originally posted by adifferentbreed
And there is nothing American about stifling American rights to appease a group of people like these......

I disagree with your notion that any American rights were stifled in this case. He's still free to continue with his burning. I'd be more than happy to discuss "stifling American rights" if/when Jones is ever arrested for expressing his first amendment rights, then your stance may have a leg to stand on. Jones canceled the burning of his own free will. No cell is preventing him from continuing.

Originally posted by adifferentbreed
check the link and get back to me

They certainly don't look "appeased". I wonder how many of them have access to 24 hr "news" networks, or the internet; so that we could get an idea of how many are aware that the event has, in fact, been canceled?

One interesting point in the article is this little gem...

The pastor, Terry Jones, told NBC on Saturday that "we feel that God is telling us to stop"

Perhaps Jones actually realized just how un-Christian the notion of purposefully trying to offend people really is.

Originally posted by adifferentbreed
I think the one idiot expresses it best when he wrote in a pamphlet "And it is Americans who are doing this," the pamphlet said. "This is the brutal policy of the enemy of Muslims." Surely he must be wrong....

Yeah, unfortunately sometimes all it takes is one idiot with access to printing materials to get people all worked up. Like I've said before Phelps has some kooky pamphlets and beliefs too, but I certainly wouldn't go around making broad based assumptions about the majority of Christians' beliefs based on a minority nutter's leaflet.

Originally posted by adifferentbreed
Obama plainly pointed out that we are not at war with islam, I guess he didn't get the pamphlet....I'm sure his stance will change after reading since they seem to dictate our policies now.

Nah, while I wouldn't call him a genius, I think Obama is smarter than that. I'm pretty sure he realizes that there's extremist nutters, who don't represent the majority, on both sides of the contrived Christian/Muslim fence.

Originally posted by redmage
Yeah, unfortunately sometimes all it takes is one idiot with access to printing materials to get people all worked up. Like I've said before Phelps has some kooky pamphlets and beliefs too, but I certainly wouldn't go around making broad based assumptions about the majority of Christians' beliefs based on a minority nutter's leaflet.

It was the media who propagated the impression that Jones's plans were indicative of American's values, as a whole. Absent the irresponsible reporting, Jones's bonfire would have been the equivalent of viewing a candle from the ISS.

ETA: I agree with your last post, except for my above observation. Starred

Originally posted by WTFover
My post addresses the thought processes behind the "bi-partisan" condemnation...

I disagree. Your post clearly only addresses your assumed thought processes behind the "left's" condemnation, and makes no comment whatsoever in regards to bi-partisanship, or what the "right" would think had Jones' intentions been stated differently.

Originally posted by WTFover
subtle changes would have drastically changed the balance of support.

I don't see any evidence supporting that conclusion, or the notion that "Had the bonfire been constructed of Bibles and Torahs...Now that would have been a party, the left wouldn't have missed!"

This is nothing more than partisan bickering.

Originally posted by WTFover
It is one thing to just say "Yep, there was bi-partisan condemnation" "Yep, there sure was". What becomes important is, after recognizing that opposing groups agree on a given topic, to examine the rationalization of the stances. Do you disagree with that?

I guess I don't see single-sided partisan jabs and "examining the rationalization of the stances" (plural) as being the same thing.

A philosophical discussion of "What's more important: an action itself, or the intentions behind it" is an interesting one, but it seems that such a topic deserves a thread of it's own.

they burn bibles, they burn flags, they raise their children to hate us. they plan attacks, bombings, and other ways of waging war on western countries. they flood us with heroin from their poppy plants and plant covert terror cells in our society. but god forbid someone burns a koran. give me a koran i'll use it as toilet paper light it on fire then take a p#ss on it to put out the flames. not because i am a racist, just because i think this whole debate is a nonissue and completely retarded.

Originally posted by WTFover
It was the media who propagated the impression that Jones's plans were indicative of American's values, as a whole.

The issue there is that for many of these protesters "the media" may only consist of "extremist pamphlets". I certainly never saw American/European media presenting Jones' plans indicative of American's values, as a whole. They presented him as a irresponsible nut. I still can't help but wonder how many of them actually have access to 24 hr "news" networks, or the internet; so that we could get an idea of how many are truly aware that the event has been canceled?

Originally posted by WTFover
Absent the irresponsible reporting, Jones's bonfire would have been the equivalent of viewing a candle from the ISS.

This I've gotta agree with.

Even though the "western media" portrayed Jones as irresponsible, their non-stop coverage and hype certainly elevated this nut's actions to a far higher level than was deserved. He's an insignificant blip, and certainly not representative of Americans as a whole.

reply to post by Curiousisall


So in response, all of the 10,000 protestors bruning the bible, effegies etc, aren't representative of all muslims? Is that why there is no outrage from any of the above posted leaders? Double standards don't work my friend, they never have. If you don't find the very idea that people in the government are discussing, in public, violating an American citizens rights, for something not even done yet disturbing, I don't know what else to say. It's not that big of a leap from promoting it to actually doing it.

Originally posted by adifferentbreed
reply to post by Curiousisall

 

So in response, all of the 10,000 protestors bruning the bible, effegies etc, aren't representative of all muslims? Is that why there is no outrage from any of the above posted leaders?

Not if you can do math.

Your second question is irrelevent. I did not hear Christian leaders condemning the Christian man that killed his family near my home last year.

reply to post by redmage


You are being rather myopic in this discussion. I presented my opinion, supported by evidence (circumstantial, but evidence none the less). Simply put, I believe the left is being quite hypocritical in this matter. In a different case, it is entirely plausible for the right to play the hypocrite role.

I have no doubt the arguments against or for the burning of Qurans would be entirely different, if the only change to the idea was from a political basis to a religious one.

Do I agree with both sides being vocally opposed to the plot? Absolutely. But it's the inconsistency that bothers me and causes me to question motivations.

Originally posted by adifferentbreed
I guess in the end the right and the left can get along......as long as it's a wholesale sell out of our constitution. Good job guys, can't wait to see you face the next crisis, you'll fold so quick it's not even funny, and now the world knows it, thanks once again for emboldening our enemies.

In this case there was no "selling out" of our Constitution. The pastor's right to freedom of speech was not abridged. Nobody threatened to arrest him if he carried out his book burning.

What there was was the pressure of individuals and groups who think it is a very bad idea. These individuals and groups have the same right to express their views as the pastor does. Even the President of the United States. If the pastor and/or some people on the political right heeded their misgivings that is also their right.

The stunt was in fact affecting America's already tenuous relationship with Muslim nations and threatening our purpose in Iraq and Afghanistan and putting our service personnel in great personal danger from reprisals. It was threatening the foreign policy objectives of the United States. The Koran burning could well have touched off a declared or undeclared war with the Middle East which would be disastrous for everyone concerned.

It seems to me you are advocating an all-out war with the Muslim world, and saying anything less is cowardice and betrayal of the Constitution. Many saner people in this country think that would also be a very bad idea. Including me.