Pointless debate and how to better waste your time.

If I could only name one thing that annoyed me about this place its that, despite all of the “deny ignorance” that goes around this place never seems productive. Arguments, the ones that get the most heated are almost exclusively ones based upon nothing more than opinion. Creation v. Evolution, My god v. your god, Democrats v. republicans etc. This place would be far less active if we never disagreed, but what I'm talking about is the constant fallacious reasoning, personal attacks and general idiocy that comes from people on both sides of every clash. People, when told the truth, when told they are wrong typically dig their heels in and strengthen their already held beliefs, resulting in the wars of ignorance. People can only change their beliefs through a willingness to accept that which is different from what they know may in fact be right and despite the ego they could in fact, be wrong.

It's rarely difficult to see who is capable of doing this and who isn't within relatively few posts. Though it may not seem like the answer I find the best thing to do is not to challenge these people. I know it's hard to walk away from an argument. (I'll stop replying, but continue to follow a thread out of some morbid curiosity for how far it will continue) If a person was raised to believe the color of the sky was red, around other people raised the same way, you may never convince them that the sky is actually blue.

When it comes to arguments that involve God and gods especially, there is no rational reasoning that cannot be countered by “God did it”, it is the very definition (Omnipotent, omnipresence, et al) that allows the entity labeled God to be and do anything while simultaneously being and doing something contradictory. (The “can even he create a rock that he cannot lift” postulate) Sure, you can illustrate all of the irrational thinking in the world involved with religious belief, but when you remember that some religious folk believe that god purposely puts people in front of them to challenge their faith, then you should see that you can only ever have the opposite effect that you intended: thus making both parties guilty of irrationality.

You will never gain ground in an argument about spirituality and belief; spend your time trying to fix earthly matters while you still can. People will believe whatever they wish to believe until they are ready to change, not a moment sooner. Share your opinions on spirituality by all means, it is one of the reasons we come here, but don't bother with those who profess that you are wrong: no one knows what really happens when we die and that why we have these beliefs in the first place. It's the last thing left unanswered.


Real issues need the most debate, there should never be a Creation v. Evolution thread on the front page.

[edit on 8/26/2010 by eNumbra]

But I like Creation v. Evolution threads and threads involving atheists and theists. What are the "real issues" to you? Shouldn't people be able to debate whatever they want to?

Originally posted by 547000
What are the "real issues" to you? Shouldn't people be able to debate whatever they want to?

Manipulation of national and world economies.
Manipulation of media, media bias and how to end the love affair between government and media.
The causes of the current world conflict, ways to end them.

You know, all those things that actually affect people's lives on a daily basis.


I and I never said people shouldn't be able to debate what the wish, only that a variety of topics are a waste of time. (some of them are even exploited by media and politicians to distract the public)

We can talk about them in addition to pointless debate. The beauty of forums is you can click on what thread you want.

the man above me has a point.

[edit on 26-8-2010 by thaknobodi]

Originally posted by 547000
We can talk about them in addition to pointless debate. The beauty of forums is you can click on what thread you want.

Well you missed the actual point of what I wrote.

These pointless debates take too much of the focus of the forum when they make it to the front page. The world is fast spinning out of control and it needs fixing. We need as many people as possible focused on doing just that. Just as well the excessive crap fests that make up said debates are well below intelligent people.

I'm simply doing what I see as necessary to focus the efforts of the ATS membership. You can keep promoting the "close your eyes and make it go away" model of thinking but I wish better for the supposedly educated cross section of the world.

[edit on 8/26/2010 by eNumbra]

I think that the problem may be that in order to deny ignorance, you would have to admit that you are ignorant.

Mostly when people find themselves either debating their opinions or finding themselves derailing a topic, with someone that clearly has a different opinion, doesn't just keep ignorance in place, but can deter others from continuing.

Its hard to do when complaining about the problems, and not trying to figure out a solution is front page news.

Peace.

On the Creation vs. Evolution subject - unless we have a time machine to go back and see for ourselves how it really began neither side has any concrete proof to back anything up. Everything is just pure speculation.

The thing is that conspiracy theory is entertainment. People get absorbed in it because it's fun. I do agree with you that time is better spent in more pressing matters, but the doers are unfortunately too few because people are still ruled by the entertainment aspect of things.

As people we are all unique and have different needs, what may be very important to one person may not be important to another. Should we only have the threads that you think are important. I think the reason people come to ATS is for the variety of forums that you don't find any where else. Let them discuss and debate all they want - you have a choice to not join in. IMO

reply to post by eNumbra

I'm simply doing what I see as necessary to focus the efforts of the ATS membership. You can keep promoting the "close your eyes and make it go away" model of thinking but I wish better for the supposedly educated cross section of the world.

Your last line there is the problem though. Some on this site are far from educated-- yet think they are because they started looking at a small portion of their life differently.

They won't even read responses before dismissing them. There are a lot of hate threads that continue to pop up by some of these regulars.

I see that as a problem that affects day to day life--hate that is. I find it hard to just sit by and keep my mouth shut sometimes when the hateful are messing with this site and ultimately its reputation.
I'm not ranting, but just trying to explain why instead of avoiding pointless arguments, I find myself joining in.
And yes I do feel silly sometimes when I step back and look at the idiotic debates I may have fallen into.
But at the same time I feel like somebody should be countering the hate view....


[edit on 26/8/2010 by Chamberf=6]

But people have the right to discuss what they want. If you don't like it you can post more threads about what you think is important. Just don't click on whatever you think is pointless. Some people have different ideas of what is important to them. Not everyone here believes in an NWO or a shadowy elite, etc.

Originally posted by Chamberf=6

I see that as a problem that affects day to day life--hate that is. I find it hard to just sit by and keep my mouth shut sometimes when the hateful are messing with this site and ultimately its reputation.
I'm not ranting, but just trying to explain why instead of avoiding pointless arguments, I find myself joining in.
And yes I do feel silly sometimes when I step back and look at the idiotic debates I may have fallen into.
But at the same time I feel like somebody should be countering the hate view....

No, I understand this completely I participate in many of said threads to try and bring some rationality to those, and attempt to expand their ways of thinking.

Originally posted by crazydaisy
As people we are all unique and have different needs, what may be very important to one person may not be important to another. Should we only have the threads that you think are important. I think the reason people come to ATS is for the variety of forums that you don't find any where else. Let them discuss and debate all they want - you have a choice to not join in. IMO

I hardy think anyone needs to propagate hate and ignorance and the dick measuring contests that are arguments and debates on issues that can never be proven, or have no black and white answer.

It seems those who keep telling me to not click on those threads are greatly misunderstanding a key word I used when phrasing the following.

You will never gain ground in an argument about spirituality and belief

I Implicitly select a certain definition for the word Argument here.

Arguments, the ones that get the most heated are almost exclusively ones based upon nothing more than opinion.

I am not talking about general discussion of topics, I am talking more specifically about the wars that get waged in these topics as further illustrated by an expansion.

I'm talking about is the constant fallacious reasoning, personal attacks and general idiocy

It is with that passion and fervor that the world could be changed for the better, whether you believe in an NWO or not (which I never mentioned 547000)



I'm not saying everybody can't talk about what they want, just that their energy needs refocusing.

reply to post by eNumbra


I'm not saying everybody can't talk about what they want, just that their energy needs refocusing.eNumbra stated

Ok eNumbra everybody has a right to an opinion and so the argument goes on no matter what is being discussed. Because it is just your opinion right? It's just like the one you stated above. So are you pushing agenda? Yes. Because I'm wasting my time to explain something of a hypocrisy on your behalf. You have a right to an opinion but you need to talk about something else. Is that what your saying?

[edit on 27-8-2010 by QuestionTheGovernment]

Originally posted by eNumbra

no one knows what really happens when we die ....

I do... but I can't prove it to anyone because it's something that only I personally witnessed..... so I don't bother

Originally posted by QuestionTheGovernment
reply to post by eNumbra

 

Because I'm wasting my time to explain something of a hypocrisy on your behalf.
You have a right to an opinion but you need to talk about something else. Is that what your saying?

People need to refocus the majority of their energy. I never said the topics shouldn't exist, only that they shouldn't be making the front page; they make the front page because of the massive amount of posts that hit on them in the middle of these ideological battles.

Originally posted by soleprobe
I do... but I can't prove it to anyone because it's something that only I personally witnessed..... so I don't bother

Whether you are being sarcastic or not this is the kind of attitude that more people need to take. There is nothing wrong with sharing such a story, but one needs to understand that it can't be proven.

The problem comes in when people begin to attack others over belief.

It used to be said that there are 2 things that should never be discussed. Politics and religion. These days, those 2 subjects seem to define many people.

I don't watch the news from any other countries than Canada or the US, so I don't know what it is like in Europe, or the UK, or elsewhere.

In the US, and it seems like this just from watching the US news, people openly want everyone to know all about both their politics and religion; almost everyone seems to be pushing their opinions as "right", to the point of trying to convert others, because everyone else is wrong, or even evil.

This is also what is fueling a lot of the division of people in America. The news media, and the politicians, are discussing this constantly and adding to the fire, dividing the people, everyday. You can't even be a politician unless you are some type of Christian, it seems. Maybe Jewish, but anything else seems to be "just wrong" in the eyes of too many. Divide and conquer.

Politics and religion are arguments that will never be won, this is why it used to be said to not discuss them, unless you are looking for a fight.

Then we move onto the next saying we were once taught - "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything