The Atheists Nightmare?

Originally posted by webpirate
reply to post by daggyz

 

I feel very confident in saying that more people have been killed/robbed/raped in the name of god, than by people who have no fear of consequences in an afterlife.

This number pales in comparison with the number of people killed by tyrant governments who did nothing in the "name of god". Just the deaths caused in the 20th Century by the Soviet Union, Maoist China, Cambodia and Uganda number in the hundreds of millions. Pol Pot killed about 1/4 of the people he was governing.

Your confidence is misplaced.

This, and other, threads are amusing, in that we see so much anger on both sides of this argument, in spite of the fact that the Christians are supposed to be following Christ's rule of "Love God, love each other" and pretty much every atheist I've asked has claimed that they consider themselves to be "highly tolerant and moral, not that I need God, thank you very much."

Both sides are a testament to the fact that we do NOT love each other, do NOT have tolerance for each other, and view these deep questions as some sort of pathetic game, where the person who makes the most pithy statement or irrational argument is somehow the winner, at least in their distorted vision.

Here this is something you can laugh at ...
Just thought I would add a classic video..
Enjoy and feel free to shoot it down.

Originally posted by daggyz
"Lets assume you are right and there is no God and I die. What do I miss out on? The ability to be really bad and kill, murder, rob and rape because their are no consequences afterward? No, my life stays the same with the same morals intact. Therefore I miss out on nothing yet I have a good life!................................................ But what if you are wrong, and there is God?"

This argument is essentially "Pascals Wager"

en.wikipedia.org...

One of my favourite responses to it, is that if there is a God, and if he is omnipotent, he will know I'm just hedging my bets, and don't really believe, and I don't think he will have much respect for that. It's living your life as a lie. That's probably a sin too.

I can't just suddenly start believing. I can't just suddenly start hating gays. I can't suddenly start turning the other cheek when I'm wronged. I probably can just stop eating shellfish though.

If I choose to believe in a God, then which one? There's so many to choose from, and the rules for each are all so complex!

Also, you appear to be making the assumption that the non-religious have no morals, and are happy to rape and murder.

I think you'll find that's not really how it works.

[edit on 12/8/2010 by harpsounds]

Originally posted by harpsounds
This argument is essentially "Pascals Wager"

One of my favourite responses to it, is that if there is a God, and if he is omnipotent, he will know I'm just hedging my bets, and don't really believe, and I don't think he will have much respect for that. It's living your life as a lie. That's probably a sin too.

Yep. Pascal's wager is a logical thesis, but skips the fact that God, as an omniscient being, would know full well that you weren't honest in your love, so it probably wouldn't count.

However, OP's point isn't quite what Pascal's wager entails, and it's one of the complaints that I have with radical atheists -- if being a Christian encourages me to act in a manner that is beneficial to others, regardless of whether you think I'm lame for doing that or not, what's the benefit to encourage me to disbelieve? As an atheist, what do you think you're improving by turning me away from something that has a positive impact on my life?

If I choose to believe in a God, then which one? There's so many to choose from, and the rules for each are all so complex!

Distilled to its core, and casting off all of the doctrine that we've burdened it with, Christianity is extremely simple.

Met one the other day. He's not very convincing. I discussed with him the following.... "Lets assume you are right and there is no God and I die. What do I miss out on? The ability to be really bad and kill, murder, rob and rape because their are no consequences afterward? No, my life stays the same with the same morals intact. Therefore I miss out on nothing yet I have a good life!................................................ But what if you are wrong, and there is God?" Can anyone tell me what a person believing in God actually misses out (that actually benefits people) in this life if God did not exist? And what if as an Atheist, you died and found that God did exist and can see what life would be like for eternity removed from him, would you want to come back and tell others you were wrong or just let them find out like you did? Daggyz writes

Does someone have to be overly convincing for you to fallow? Another note just because someone is not religious does not mean they have no morals that would be called labeling or judging merely because you believe what others choose not. Which leads me to believe you must fallow others because you cannot think for yourself because if you did you would state facts not fiction. Also Daggyz there are many inconsistencies you choose to overlook just because you have faith. Do you have faith because America could easily slip into the top 10 most religious country in the world? Finally if you have an opinion don't shove it down peoples necks just because you believe your going somewhere when you die. I mean really is that all you have to bring to the discussion? Everything you say is hypothetical without any basis if you did this and that whatever its nonsense no one knows what happens that's the funny thing. But you seem to right?

This topic seems to bring out the worst in everyone. Pretend with me for a moment please.

Lets say I am a religious person and I believe in a Christian god and that Jesus died on the cross to satisfy a debt for all of the sins of mankind. Well now I have to follow a few simple rules. Basically don't do anything that society believes is bad but if you do then ask for forgiveness and "really mean it" and you shall be forgiven. Well this logic seems to open up a world of possibility. Basically by the logic of the Christian church I am able to do anything I please and then just ask for forgiveness and everything is great. When I die I will be rewarded with all of the greed and unnecessary "things" that I was unable to have while upon this earth.

Lets say I am atheist now. I have to live my life by the morals set forth by society. These morals are explicitly set out in a form of laws no interpretation of millennium old fables necessary. Then when I die well I just die.

Hmm lets think for a moment. These are basically the same well except for one just does what is right and the other does what they want and expect forgiveness. I think I would prefer to live next to the one that just does what is right.

It astounds me those who have such lack of faith in fellow man - - his intelligence and logic - - living in a social environment.

The insistence man is incapable of behaving in a compassionate and understanding manner toward his own - - because it is his own - - and for no other reason.

These discussions about morals always remind me and bring me to the very devout Catholic Italian Mafia.

Personally - I find God to be an excuse - - often.

And what if all of you were wrong and there were many Gods, none of them being Jesus Christ affiliated?

Then it wouldn't really matter would it? Because monotheism rules your lives through fear of death, which is only a word made up by people who can't explain life beyond the physical realm.

Originally posted by who_sright?
Basically by the logic of the Christian church I am able to do anything I please and then just ask for forgiveness and everything is great. When I die I will be rewarded with all of the greed and unnecessary "things" that I was unable to have while upon this earth.

That is absolutely not correct. Christian teaching is that forgiveness requires contrition as well as asking. The "love God" bit includes the expectation that you truly give yourself over to him and knock off the bad behaviour, not that you'll do as you please, ask for forgiveness every 15 minutes, and you're good to go.

James says "faith without works is dead" -- though some (Catholics, mostly) take that to mean that we are judged on what we do, an alternative view, which I subscribe to, is that if we claim to be Christians, claim to love one another, but continue to be self-serving, greedy and selfish, we are not Christians at all. Our works need to reflect our faith, or we instead testify that we have no faith.

[edit on 12-8-2010 by adjensen]

Originally posted by prepared4truth
And what if all of you were wrong and there were many Gods, none of them being Jesus Christ affiliated?

Then it wouldn't really matter would it? Because monotheism rules your lives through fear of death, which is only a word made up by people who can't explain life beyond the physical realm.

If you understood Christian theology, you might understand why a Christian believes that, in light of all other faiths, Christianity offers something that the others do not. However, if another faith is the correct one, I am no worse off than someone such as yourself, who has rejected all notions of anything superior to himself.

Fear of death, fear of anything, does not rule my life or make my choices for me. Your insults serve only to minimize you, not others.

Originally posted by adjensen
if being a Christian encourages me to act in a manner that is beneficial to others, regardless of whether you think I'm lame for doing that or not, what's the benefit to encourage me to disbelieve?

Why do you need to be a Christian in order to act in a good manner? Are you a generally bad person who needs the threat of eternal damnation in order to not steal, cheat and kill? Your own moral compass and the laws of the land are not enough to keep you in check?

I don't really believe most people are like that. I think that you'd be as nice a person without the religion, as with, and you could shake off a whole layer of superstition.

[edit on 12-8-2010 by nophun]

Originally posted by harpsounds

Originally posted by adjensen
if being a Christian encourages me to act in a manner that is beneficial to others, regardless of whether you think I'm lame for doing that or not, what's the benefit to encourage me to disbelieve?

Why do you need to be a Christian in order to act in a good manner? Are you a generally bad person who needs the threat of eternal damnation in order to not steal, cheat and kill? Your own moral compass and the laws of the land are not enough to keep you in check?

I don't really believe most people are like that. I think that you'd be as nice a person without the religion, as with, and you could shake off a whole layer of superstition.

Being a Christian isn't a matter of not stealing, cheating and killing. That's pretty easy to manage. True Christianity is loving God and loving everyone else. Think about that for a minute. It's not "I won't steal from Bill." It's "Bill steals from me, but I'll let that slide and try and find out what's going on with Bill and whether I can help." Or not "Bill's being a jerk" but "Bill doesn't seem to like me, I wonder what I might have done to bother him."

Christianity is not only saying that you're not the most important person in the world, but saying that your biggest priority in life is trying to look out for everyone else.

Christianity is giving money to every beggar you see, whether you think they deserve it or not. It is spending your time in service to others, not in service to yourself.

Christianity is not living with the "threat of eternal damnation" as a motivation, but with the belief that, even when people spit at you, insult you and call you a fool, you're doing something important, something that makes a difference in the lives of people that are otherwise ignored and suffering.

If you think that's easy, I challenge you to try it for a week.

Most people confuse "nice" with "polite" and can't even manage that. I know quite a large number of "nice" people. But I can count the number of nice people that help feed and care for the homeless on one hand.

Originally posted by ccsct203
As a Christian I agree.

What have we got to loose? Nothing..what have non'believers got to loose...everything.

Being a "good" Christian will not get you to heaven.

It's only by putting your trust in Jesus Christ and realizing HE died on the
cross to satisfy the payment for our sins which is death... eternal death.

there is No other name under heaven by which man can be saved.

Allah is a false god as is Buddha.

You don't like it... sorry tell God when you stand before Him at the judgement seat.

If there is a moral law then there must be a moral law giver. GOD
No one can convince anyone there is a God.

If I can talk anyone into believing in God then someone else can talk you out of believing in the same God.

If God wants your attention He WILL GET IT.

Deeds won't get you to heaven any more then if Bill Gates tried to buy his way in to heaven.

God has standards and if WE don't meet them then we ...as in all are already condemned.

What do you have to do to go to hell... nothing... mankind is rebellious by nature... we have to have our nature changed, and this is only done through Christ's work on the cross.

And you honestly don't think there's anything wrong with that scenario? Even just one little bit?

reply to post by daggyz


well, I would tell God this:

your followers are so dumb, that is impossible to believe in you, and probably you dont exist, this is just my brain creating this allucination before it dies for good


[edit on 13/8/10 by Faiol]

Originally posted by SeekerForLight
Christians have this idea that not believing in god makes you an athiest.

That's because it does? "atheist: someone who denies the existence of god" (Source)

You can still be spiritual and an atheist at the same time. For example, Buddhists are atheists.

Originally posted by ccsct203
Allah is a false god as is Buddha.

Hah! That's a good one. FYI, Buddha isn't a deity.

You don't like it... sorry tell God when you stand before Him at the judgement seat.

I will. If your God is so vindictive and egotistical that he would send a person to Hell simply for failing to believe in him, then I'd rather burn in Hell for all eternity than bow even an inch to your "God".

Besides, Hell sounds much more interesting. In Heaven, the first thing I would think at the start of a new day is, "Oh great, another day of bowing down to my 'Eternal Lord and Savior.' Same as yesterday. And the day before. And the day before that. And, hey, what do I have to look forward to? The same thing, always and forever." I literally start to feel like I'm being smothered just thinking about it.
On the other hand, in Hell, the first thing I would think of when seeing myself approached by agents of the devil or (imagine my surprise!) Lucifer himself!, would be, "What new and devious punishment can I expect today?" I might even encounter some fellow infidels. Hell, if you turn out to be wrong, too, maybe we can hang out and shoot the breeze as we're slowly roasted in a cauldron of boiling blood!


Some people believe in Pascal's wager. I have a wager of my own:
1. If there is no God, I'm right. I die and... nothing happens. It's all over. My consciousness goes out like a snuffed candle and that's it.
2. If there is a God, and he is a just God, I will be recognized as a just person, and I will be rewarded for my actions, regardless of my belief.
3. If there is a God, and he is an "evil" God, he'll probably think me being a gay, atheist rapper, DJ, composer of metal, and mashup artist who rejects the system and refuses to believe in him is pretty cool and, when I die, he'll give me props and sit me up with Tupac, Nietzsche, Turing, Einstein, Beethoven, Curtis Mayfield, Bob Marley, Janis Joplin, Derrida, George Carlin, Richard Pryor, John Lennon, and a bunch of other people (just realized I listed mostly men... I hope any feminists reading this can forgive me for having such an annoyingly male-centric view of the world . I promise I'll try and broaden my horizons in the future.) I don't really have time to list who are also awesome and we'll rock out and make amazing music and have a great time embracing the inherent chaos of a universe ruled by an anti-hero (in my book).
4. If there is a God, and he's a terrible, vindictive God, then I wouldn't worship him anyway and I'll gladly suffer whatever punishment he throws at me, because doing anything else would compromise my values and that's just not what I'm about. Plus, all the other cool people would be in Hell, too, so maybe while I'm getting crucified with nails made of my own bones, I'll be hanging up next to some cool person like those I mentioned above and we can chat about... you know... life, the universe, and everything.
(this wager inspired by this everything2 writeup)

I think that about sums it up.

[edit on 13-8-2010 by pr3l33t]

reply to post by daggyz



You act like like your view is correct and others who have a view different from yours are wrong.

None of us knows so to claim that is not only hasty, but very snobby.

Please dont judge others so we can collectively come together to solve the worlds questions. not bicker needlessly.

reply to post by adjensen


I'm sorry but... do you know me?

You seem to believe that I think I am superior or something like that. I don't.

You also seem to believe that I know nothing about Christian theology. I do.

For you to be a Christian, you sure are quick to judge...

P.S. it wasn't really an insult. more of a food for thought type of thing. if you (referring to all Christians) are not afraid to die, what stops you from changing the world?

[edit on 13-8-2010 by prepared4truth]

Originally posted by prepared4truth
reply to post by adjensen

 

I'm sorry but... do you know me?

You seem to believe that I think I am superior or something like that. I don't.

You said "monotheism rules your lives through fear of death", a derogatory blanket statement which is not true. You apparently know me (and all others you applied that to,) so I assumed you have a superior viewpoint.

I also instantly attribute arrogance to someone who follows their criticism of another person's belief with this: as you did.

You also seem to believe that I know nothing about Christian theology. I do.

There is knowing, and there is understanding. I didn't say that you didn't know it, I said that you didn't understand it, and your statement of "if all of you were wrong and there were many Gods, none of them being Jesus Christ affiliated?" as well as the belief that a Christian is only a Christian out of fear is an indication that you do not understand it.

if you (referring to all Christians) are not afraid to die, what stops you from changing the world?

As I am not all Christians, I do not represent that others are not afraid to die. As for myself, I'm not sure what you mean by "what stops me from changing the world"?

reply to post by facelift

Way to mooch off Randy...

Well is it such a bad thing?

Peeps come-on I doubt if OP knew anything about the other thread and
does it really matter? Whole different person whole different thread. K?

SnF


[edit on 13-8-2010 by randyvs]