US Judge: OK to extract confessions by threatening rape

reply to post by Eldix


What co-conspirators?

Has ANYONE read the facts of the case? You have no clue what you are talking about. Google "Omar Khadr." Read what he is accused of doing. Then MAYBE you will be more qualified to respond.

What you would do to this boy would absolutely, 100% create more terrorism. This boy is guilty of nothing, except having a terrible father. But clearly you have no desire to read about him or what this case is all abou. You would much rather rant and rave about completely irrelevant nonsense.

Originally posted by Reaper2137
if I remember and I could be wrong. I'm sorry I don't have a site or source I read it in the news paper. here goes...

I thought that because he was not a united states citizen he isn't subject to us law he isn't able to sue he isn't able to do much any thing. while I don't think its right to do what they did to this kid. its not right but he isn't a u.s citizen he can't do anything..

side note the geneva convention is for warfare aginst others who have signed that thing. Iraq and afgan haven't signed it I could be wrong I know iraq hadden't so I don't see how its relivent to the con vo. just debating sorry for my bad spelling.. hope it helps..

The Supreme Court ruled in Hamdan vs. Rumsfeld that Bush had authorized war crimes

General Tommy Franks ordered troops in Afghanistan and Iraq to follow the Geneva Conventions whenever they encountered the enemy. Bush had his own take on the Geneva Conventions.

George W. Bush, War Criminal?: The Bush Administration's Liability for 269 War Crimes
by Michael Haas Professor Emeritus of Political Science and a book you may need to read if you have fought in a war and you know little of the legality.

Originally posted by Reaper2137
brit chick lol..

what I was saying that you missed the point. is that the U.K is no different than the united states save maybe you have better spin doctors than we do I was over in Iraq right along side the brits they did and do the same thing we do. only difference is they are a small country and have better spin doctors. just because you don't hear about it on the BBC only shows how good your gov. is the united states learned from the best only we arn't as good as you brits yet and covering our assess

and you won't find any ROE on shooting a five year old. it happens trust me on that. I've never had to shoot a kid before don't know if I could but they use every thing they can I've seen donkey bombs retard bombs their kids. the kids tho are bad for moral if ya know what I mean.

I spent a long time today writing out a little snapshot for you



with links to European documents regarding the CIA and the rendition / transport and illegal detention of prisoners

Former CIA Directors trying to Block Holder's Torture Investigation

The fact Army Sergeant Joshua Claus has also been convicted of abusing a different detainee and has left the military
CIA's approved "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques" aka torture testified by many including Navy Seal Dan Cerrillo, and the testimony of Brandon Neely



I am also aware of the collusion of the British government and movement of prisoners through British airspace and the findings of the British Army Prosecution Authority regarding the abuse of prisoners. The murder of Doctor David Kelly




There is a line that any decent human being knows not to cross, to try an persuade me otherwise is futile, to hide behind diabolical orders is a sign of abject weakness and to not take a stand is the same.

Many people would rather die with their honour intact than cross that line and those people are the true heroes.

I have had guns to my head as a child and I still spoke my truth because it was the truth, and to try and corner me with emotional stories of babies, and wheelchairs if ineffectual when armed with the facts in this case.

a child was tortured whilst detained with no 5 year old suicide bombers in the vicinity

a Judge made the worst kind of legal history with no 5 year old suicide bomber in the vicinity

Millions of people worldwide marched against the war in Iraq and I contend it was not I nor they who bought into the propaganda.

Don't you think it is rather amazing that Afghanistan and Iraq have so many natural resources ?

oh yes...what makes you think i'm a chick..maybe i'm a bloke who likes female clothes....pass the cigar someone please


[edit on 15-8-2010 by BANANAMONTANA]

[edit on 15-8-2010 by BANANAMONTANA]

Originally posted by Eldix

Originally posted by camaro68ss

I have visited ever major battle field in the Europe theater that the USA fought in in WW2. I paid my respects to the fallen US soldiers on that foreign soil. I payed my repects to patton himself at his grave site. I have seen D-day and the beaches, i visted bastone. I have visited ever major battle in the civil war. I study history. my father is the largest privet civil war collector in the united states. Your not the one who know what he is talking about. I feel sorry for you. i have family in iraq now. my family has been in every major battle this country has fought in all the way to the Revolutionary war. dont tell me i dont know anything about war. My family fought in those wars! your just soft and a big talker

People like you make me sick. Just because you've visited a site that has had a war and "paid your respects" to fallen heroes and generals doesn't mean squat. Your family may have fought in those wars, but you have no idea what they are about, and I don't care how many stories gramps told you about his time in the war, you still don't know anything about it. Unless you actually get off your sheltered ass and get into the thick of it, you have no room to talk.

I, on the other hand, have seen war. I've seen things that would make you lose your damn mind if you were put in the same position. You have no idea what lengths the enemy is willing to go to to harm you, because all you've ever known is the soft life of the average American. Based on what you've said, every teenager who's played a Call of Duty game or read Mein Kampf can say he knows about war because he's studied it. NOTHING you could ever read, watch, or listen to could EVER hold up to what war is really about.

You, sir, are the soft one, full of nothing but talk. When you actually go out and watch four of your brothers get blows to bits thirty feet away from you because they didn't have the heart to shoot a small boy with an IED strapped to him, then you can actually talk, until then shut up and stick to what you do know, which is nothing more than half-truths and lies told after everything's been said and done.

I find nothing wrong with threatening rape on a 15 year old TERRORIST. Age does not matter when it comes down to the cold hard facts of life. I myself will now no longer hesitate to put a bullet in a 5 year old, if I knew he was being used as a weapon against me or my brothers, simply because I have been there, I have seen it, and this crap actually happens. When someone is plotting, or is part of a plot, to bring harm to anyone, they are no longer a child, they are no longer innocent.

If I was in that position, I wouldn't have threatened rape, I would have tied the SOB down to a chair and ripped out his fingernails one by one until he gave the location of his co-conspiritors. And I wouldn't stop destroying his body piece by piece, causing as much pain as I possibly could, until I knew I had every scrap of information I could get out of him. Only then would I proceed to place a bullet in his worthless skull. Terrorists deserve no rights, they must be treated like the worthless dogs they are, and until you tree-hugging hippies realize this, we will never be able to ensure the safety of out loved ones and family. I truly wish that the next terrorist attack (and trust me, there will be more and more) hits your house, your community, your family. Then your attitude will be completely different in what "rights" these scum have.

I have lost too many loved ones to these dogs to care about what "rights" anyone else thinks they have. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who takes up for them can join them in their demise. I dare you to approach a real soldier and tell him that these terrorists deserve better treatment than what they're getting. Guarantee he rips your face off and feeds it to you you bastard.

Dude im on your side i dont know why your chewing me out. lol no i did not go to war. i cant go to war i have degenerative disc disease and have one leg shourter then the other by 1-1/2 in. i wanted to go but cant. so please dont chew me out. yes i never went and witnessed it first hand but i have respect for those who have. I commited a week in my Euro trip to study and pay my respects for this people who lost everything.

I fell they did what they need to do to get info and i think it was the right think.

[edit on 15-8-2010 by camaro68ss]

reply to post by InvisibleAlbatross


You mean he's guilty of being taken back to his homeland, and being indoctrinated to a cause in which hey *may* have DEFENDED his home land from foreign invasion against the will of the established government, without a declaration of war?

*Possibly* defending your home land from invasion is terrorism!

[edit on 15-8-2010 by mryanbrown]

BANANAMONTANA, lol... once again. you missed the point. I'm saying both our gov. do the same thing. I'm not fighting with you over weather or not its leagel I'm not I agree with you what I said was for debate sake. to make this a better debate and to get some really good ideals going. I like you not only do you debate well I'm new to this whole thing of doing it online. but you are nice enough to show me what ya got. and sorry if your not a girl. I"d like to think you are. but I was mearlly trying to point out that both of our gov. does the same thing. just yours is better at it. and I'll have to look around but I think obama said some thing about the geneva convetnion not applying to them because their taliban or i could be confusing it with al-qiada either way one of the two.

Originally posted by InvisibleAlbatross
reply to post by Eldix

 

What co-conspirators?

Has ANYONE read the facts of the case? You have no clue what you are talking about. Google "Omar Khadr." Read what he is accused of doing. Then MAYBE you will be more qualified to respond.

What you would do to this boy would absolutely, 100% create more terrorism. This boy is guilty of nothing, except having a terrible father. But clearly you have no desire to read about him or what this case is all abou. You would much rather rant and rave about completely irrelevant nonsense.

I have read the facts of the case, apparently you havn't. Here are the facts:

Khadr is accused of killing a U.S. soldier by throwing a hand grenade during combat with U.S. forces, planting mines to target U.S. convoys, and gathering surveillance at an airport in Afghanistan.

In January 2008, Khadr's lawyers moved to dismiss the charges against him on several grounds, including: (1) lack of subject matter jurisdiction; (2) violation of the bill of attainder clause of the U.S. Constitution; and (3) lack of jurisdiction to try child soldiers under the MCA.

Nowhere in any of the news articles that I can find on this terrorist does it say that they tried to dismiss charges based on evidence finding him innocent. I am thus forced to conclude that the terrorist is guilty of the charges he faced. I don't know who raised you, but where I come from, throwing grenades at American soldiers, planting land mines, and gathering surveillance for terrorist groups would in fact make you a terrorist. How about you learn your facts before your blast off at the mouth.

At the age of 15, everyone except those that are mentally incapacitated are aware of their actions. He knew what he was doing, and he deserves less than what he received. Bureaucratic bullsh*t is the only thing standing on his side. The cold hard facts are: he is a terrorist. Plain and simple. If we do not result to desperate measures, as these terrorists are, we cannot hope to eliminate them and ensure our safety.

[edit on 8/16/2010 by Eldix]

Originally posted by BANANAMONTANA

Originally posted by Eldix
reply to post by BANANAMONTANA

 

So what would you do, little miss high-and-mighty, if you had a five year old running at you with powerful explosives strapped to his chest? Your post just proves what I have been saying about the average American having no idea what real war is like. Also, I can wish a terrorist attack on someone, because that's obviously what it would take for them to wake up and see the world how it really is, not as the perfect little bubble that the American government has brainwashed them into thinking it is. People are willing to do things that most of you would never even dream of. Just because you've been deluded into living in a fantasy world where everyone acts kindly and has some moral and ethical sense doesn't mean that that's how it is. When you're faced with the decision of either shooting a child or letting numerous people you know and love die, what would you decide? I'm interested in hearing your answer to that.

Sorry I will not be enticed into name calling to fuel delusions.

This thread is about a Judicial ruling and the implications therein.
I believe you presume too much, you have no knowledge of my very real experience of bombs and casualties of “war”.

Unless Sir you are vertically challenged I would suggest you RUN from a “groomed” 5 year old with a bomb strapped to their chest. I would indeed by very interested if you could provide me links regarding the 5 year old suicide bombers and rules of engagement.

The world now has a better view of the “rules of engagement” as interpreted by some servicemen with the aid of Julian Assange.

I am British.



It was a court ruling with no 5 year old suicide bombers in the vicinity.

www.washingtontimes.com...

This is one of several links. Do some research before you make a fool of yourself girl. Anyone who has kept up with the war on terrorism already knows of this information.

As for your claim that your "pristine" government would NEVER result to such cruel tactics, all I can do is laugh. Our own experts were trained by your country in the extraction of information. Also, the UK participated in several questionable activities during Desert Storm. You need to do some research before you act like your country is so nice and ethical. Like I said: high-and-might. Take your head out of your ass and look at cold hard facts. I myself have participated in several "questionable" activities, right along side your "ethical" troops. And guess what? The information we obtained saved countless UK and American lives. Your own life was probably saved because of our very actions. As I said, these dogs deserve no mercy. Anything and everything we can do to destroy every last one of them must be done if our family and friends are to remain safe. If we back down and run every time they pull some monstrous act, we would constantly be running from them. At some point, some of us must result to the same desperate actions, otherwise we will lose this war, and terrorist groups will be free to continue their attacks on OUR innocent civilians.

Oh, and if you need a refresher course on what your country has suffered at their hands, take a look at this:

en.wikipedia.org...


Sad to know that an American has more sympathy for the innocents of your country than you yourself do.

[edit on 8/16/2010 by Eldix]

reply to post by Eldix


You are forced to conclude he is guilty?

That was the funniest thing I have read on ATS. His lawyers are trying to get the charges dropped, because he was a child. A child does not comprehend his or her actions in the same way an adult does. If you don't like that, take it up with the courts. There is a reason kids are not charged as adults in most cases.

This is all irrelevant however, because Omar Khadr did not throw the grenade; he is innocent. It is true that he was in Afghanistan; his father was close to bin Laden. Nobody is disputing that fact. We do not however, charge kids for their parents' crimes. Donald Rumsfeld's children will never be charged for his crimes.

Now, can you tell me how Omar Khadr would have gotten an American grenade? That is what was used to kill the American soldier. Why did the American soldiers give differing accounts of the events of that day? Why did one of the soldiers change his story years later?

Does this honestly look like someone capable of throwing a grenade? (Warning: VERY graphic)
upload.wikimedia.org...

Originally posted by Reaper2137
BANANAMONTANA, lol... once again. you missed the point. I'm saying both our gov. do the same thing. I'm not fighting with you over weather or not its leagel I'm not I agree with you what I said was for debate sake. to make this a better debate and to get some really good ideals going. I like you not only do you debate well I'm new to this whole thing of doing it online. but you are nice enough to show me what ya got. and sorry if your not a girl. I"d like to think you are. but I was mearlly trying to point out that both of our gov. does the same thing. just yours is better at it. and I'll have to look around but I think obama said some thing about the geneva convetnion not applying to them because their taliban or i could be confusing it with al-qiada either way one of the two.

I'm sorry I was rude and please accept my apology. I do not mean to cause offence.

I hope you do find peace, and I have no idea what you have suffered.

I hope your country take care of you as you have of them.

again sorry we all have a voice and I should have the respect to listen.

=]

reply to post by Eldix


Look I can see you are upset and maybe I was as well and my anger got the better of me. I apologise if i hurt you in anyway.

I can see you are in pain and I again have no idea what you suffered.

Let me just say this .. I have no views here on the innocence of the person in question. I think what happened after his capture is important and it is important because case law can filter down into other cases.

It means any child legally be threatened with rape for a confession and this confession used.

It would not happen here because if it did the European courts would over rule.

I did not indeed place Britain on any pedestal and am aware of some, not all of the dirty tactics used in the pursuit of oil. I am aware they had a huge impact on Iran as well and the overthrow of Mosaddeq and the Shah etc and now noses are sniffing over there again.

I do know they trade children and cage children to brainwash for use, it disgusts me yes but on our own doorsteps we have children absued and traded as well. It is a disgusting thing

this was not about tactics of war, it was a court case and it is a very important ruling on how we treat humans.

I dont want to upset you further,. I am happy in a way that you may find ATS as an outlet as I do as well, but please be mindful other people will not share your views and that is not a personal attack on you.


I hope you find peace and support that your country owes you.



[edit on 17-8-2010 by BANANAMONTANA]

reply to post by Eldix

Nowhere in any of the news articles that I can find on this terrorist does it say that they tried to dismiss charges based on evidence finding him innocent. I am thus forced to conclude that the terrorist is guilty of the charges he faced. I don't know who raised you, but where I come from, throwing grenades at American soldiers, planting land mines, and gathering surveillance for terrorist groups would in fact make you a terrorist.

Why do these things make you a terrorist? He didn't target civilians. In my book these things make you a soldier. If we change the definition, then every Allied soldier in WWI and WW2 were terrorists. It is not illegal to fight against an opposing army. It is only illegal to violate the Geneva Convention or intentionally target civilians. That is the difference between a terrorist and a soldier. Therefore, our own interrogation tactics are much closer to terrorism than the action of throwing a grenade at an enemy troop or planting a landmine on a roadway.(Yes I know landmines are now taboo, but they haven't always been.) Those things are just typical acts of war.

As for doing whatever we can to protect our own soldiers lives, I agree with you. In a battlefield situation where time is of the essence and you have an enemy asset, by all means torture them to get immediate and pertinent information to sway the battle in your favor.

BUT, days, weeks, and months later in the safety of a prison cell it is absolutely wrong to continue to torture someone just to gain a little bit of a psychological advantage. We have to walk the talk. If we are the world's police on the grounds of liberty and justice for all, then we have to provide liberty and justice for all, we can't stoop to the same tactics as our enemy. As soon as we stoop to that level, we lose all grounds for being involved in the war in the first place.


[edit on 17-8-2010 by getreadyalready]

lol.. its alright I didn't make me upset your a cool person and you debate well so yeah we are cool rofl..

Every day, here in America, teenagers are being charged as adults, simply because they were found to be fully aware of their actions. I myself was charged as an adult when I was only 15 years old. Why? Because some guy was stalking my female cousin, and repeated attempts to resolve the situation through local law enforcement failed, due to "lack of evidence". Simply because the only evidence we could provide was witness testimony, it was considered insubstantial due to the fact that the witnesses were family members. All that was provided was a trespassing warrant, which did not alleviate the situation. Every time he violated this warrant, the cops showed up too late to catch him in the vicinity, nothing was ever done. I took the matter into my own hands, and proceeded to to assault him. The markings were enough to bring charges on me. The district attorney then charged me as an adult, with one count of attempted murder. My lawyer was able to bring charges down to aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, then finally to misdemeanor battery. After being held in the county jail for a total of 3 months, as a teenage boy, awaiting trial, the judge threw out the case, stating the following. "Given the fact that this young man, knowing the circumstances and repercussions of his actions, it is agreed that the court will try him as an adult." "Given the circumstances, that over a dozen complaints made by (name omitted) towards (name omitted) were never fully inspected by the local law enforcement, I hereby conclude that the young man in question took the only available means to resolve this situation." Thus, they were able to try me as an adult, but it was found that I violated no law, given that the local law enforcement's incompetence put my cousin in jeopardy.

The point of this story, is that it is common for people under the age of 18 to be tried as an adult. Considering the fact that Omar Ahmed Khadr was 15 at the time he commited these crimes, which were far worse than what I did, I see no problem with charging him as an adult.

Also, the question of "Where did he get an American grenade?" That's simple, when there is a body of an American soldier laying on the ground, it is easy enough to liberate any weapons that is on the corpse. Do you think that these people will just leave perfectly good grenades and ammo on a dead soldier?

just to chime in here on the whole were did he get this and were did he get that story. its well known that instead of the united states wateing the time and money to bring back every thing the buryied alot of in in the desert and the stuff gets found and used to harm us.. kinda short sighted on their part but guess it works well for the freedom fighters over their

this is horrible
so you can threaten people that they will be raped if they dont confess
this goes against alot of thing and it shows how cold and callous the US government is if they would allow such things.

reply to post by name pending


This is very very nasty and in no way should be allowed.
Threatening anyone with rape is just wrong, and in no way should ayeone be using this to extract confessions.
Especially on a child.