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Sheepdogs vs. Wolves : Law Enforcement, Predators and Prey, and Love or Hate Cops...
page: 3share:
reply to post by mistafaz
reason.com...
www.popularmechanics.com...
www.cato.org...
Just Google it. Easy to find.
reason.com...
www.popularmechanics.com...
www.cato.org...
Just Google it. Easy to find.
Originally posted by Jerk_Idiot
reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas
I brought my daughter into this?
Fair enough.
Originally posted by Jerk_Idiot
I spoke in generalities until you went to my profile and brought my daughter into this.
Again, fair enough, although I could tell this had a personal twist.
You were both vague and detailed.
And yes I went to your profile.
I also posted a funny picture with a nice message.
And U2U'ed you the link to the thread about embedding too.
We could have gotten off to a bad start.
Both of us could have been clearer.
Originally posted by Jerk_Idiot
As to details. I can give you a lot of them. There would still be a lot I do not know and therefore could not give you. Than there is the mater of proof. Funny there was a broadcast made on broadcast tv that there was no record of at the station within 7 days. Lots of people made copies. Part of the reason I didn't lose my security clearance.
Glad to hear you didn't lose your security clearance.
Originally posted by Jerk_Idiot
I was speaking in generalities of things I have seen myself.
I can see that.
There was no malicious intent in what I said about your daughter.
From the things you were stating it sure sounded like a D.E.A. or Undercover Operation.
Originally posted by Jerk_Idiot
I understood about the implication about my daughter as something like what you suggested happened on the East coast a few years back with the girl being shot to death. LEO's tried to cover up their involvement and would have been able to if she had not left records of what had happened to her. The LEO's who set her up claimed they were not at fault even though they blackmailed her over a couple of joints into a life and death situation without backup and got her killed.
Well, I am happy to hear you understood the implications, even if we got off on the wrong foot, hopefully we can move on now, and just talk.
Blackmail : Keep Your Friends Close, Keep Your Enemies Closer, The Threat of Subversion Through Fear
And here in the thread above are my thoughts on blackmail.
Political Currency : Secret Societies, Those They Blackmail, and the Corrupt Currency...
And another one about Secret Societies and blackmail.
Originally posted by Jerk_Idiot
My point is LEO's do this all the time. Most LEO's are not aware of it and when they do finally find out what their brethren do they are horrified. They also cover it up. Not for publication. So even if they do anything about it they hide it from us and say just trust us.
It's not the crime but the cover-up.
Well, that's not completely true, the crime is just as important.
The cover-up is just as bad if not worse.
Originally posted by Jerk_Idiot
As to you being offended about me suggesting for you not to make assumptions. No one should make assumptions about anything. However it is a standard police tactic to turn the victim into a criminal stating that it was the victim's fault. Do not take my word for it. Just look at the threads on here. Bedridden grandmother on oxegen taking a hostile stance lying in bed. She caused the tazing didn't she. There are many others. That was why I asked if you were a LEO.
Of course not.
Assuming makes an ass of you and me.
I understand where you're coming from trust me.
University of Florida student Tasered at Kerry forum
Initially, he did nothing wrong, until he began resisting.
There is of course much more to that story.
And none of us were there to witness it specifically.
Originally posted by Jerk_Idiot
If you are saying I was not civil than I believe you have a very low boiling point. Just my belief. I doubt you could show that.
I never said you were not being civil.
I was merely discussing the civility from the perspective of being attacked.
I believe we both made mistakes.
My boiling point is much higher than that.
But when I perceive an attack, in this case it sure looked like a credibility attack, I defend myself, using my knowledge of words, the terms and conditions of this website, and policy, procedure, and protocol.
Like anyone else might do.
Are you and I good now?
[edit on 10-8-2010 by SpartanKingLeonidas]
reply to post by Jerk_Idiot
Maybe I misunderstood the point you were trying to convey but I took your comment that LEOs as cop by cop and not departments as a whole want to become more militaristic which is why I asked you what police OFFICERS, not entire departments acting on what they want to proceed with policy wise, that they themselves personally would want to have assault rifles and powers to circumvent the rights of the public.
But hey, thank you tremendously for the links you provided, especially the Cato and PM articles!
The issue of police forces becoming more para-militaristic is a near and dear subject to me that I take none too lightly. There is no reason that any police officer should be acting in the mind set that every citizen is suspect, just in case. It damages the effects of the officer's relationship with the community in which they serve, especially if that community already has negative feelings towards law enforcement.
I'm not trying to cast people who serve this country in a negative light but from my experience those who are LEOS that don't mind being militaristic and readily welcome more abilities that would seem unjust are people that come into Law Enforcement from just coming back from overseas and those that joined LE after a career in the military. I've talked with people that have this mindset and what they've told me that it's just hard to shake off the military mindset when for the past several years they lived in constant fear that they would be killed. I can't say this for every veteran working in LE of course but the people I've spoken with have allowed me to gain information into my concerns and I've been able to brainstorm ways to alleviate the problem. I have hopes that in the future I can use what I've gained to train incoming LEOs so that they can better serve the community so that the issues of previous LE generations become a thing of the past.
Again, thank you for the links, but I don't know why you needed to be disrespectful in your reply even if I was mistaken.
Maybe I misunderstood the point you were trying to convey but I took your comment that LEOs as cop by cop and not departments as a whole want to become more militaristic which is why I asked you what police OFFICERS, not entire departments acting on what they want to proceed with policy wise, that they themselves personally would want to have assault rifles and powers to circumvent the rights of the public.
But hey, thank you tremendously for the links you provided, especially the Cato and PM articles!
The issue of police forces becoming more para-militaristic is a near and dear subject to me that I take none too lightly. There is no reason that any police officer should be acting in the mind set that every citizen is suspect, just in case. It damages the effects of the officer's relationship with the community in which they serve, especially if that community already has negative feelings towards law enforcement.
I'm not trying to cast people who serve this country in a negative light but from my experience those who are LEOS that don't mind being militaristic and readily welcome more abilities that would seem unjust are people that come into Law Enforcement from just coming back from overseas and those that joined LE after a career in the military. I've talked with people that have this mindset and what they've told me that it's just hard to shake off the military mindset when for the past several years they lived in constant fear that they would be killed. I can't say this for every veteran working in LE of course but the people I've spoken with have allowed me to gain information into my concerns and I've been able to brainstorm ways to alleviate the problem. I have hopes that in the future I can use what I've gained to train incoming LEOs so that they can better serve the community so that the issues of previous LE generations become a thing of the past.
Again, thank you for the links, but I don't know why you needed to be disrespectful in your reply even if I was mistaken.
reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas
Thank You for your answers SKL!
Here is my take. Law Enforcement has become too much of a "job" and not enough of a "duty." Therefore we now have a lot of sheep dressed up like sheepdogs. They are scared, they have no real intention of sacrificing their life for another, and in reality they are only there for the paycheck. This creates a lot of problems. I would rather be bitten by a mean dog than a skittish scared one. The mean dog charges head on, the skittish one waits til you turn around and nips your ankles.
Then, we have the Wolves. All hunters and predators know that the best method of catching prey is to surprise it. Camoflage, Disquise, stalking, etc. Therefore, we have wolves in sheeps clothing, and we have wolves in sheepdog uniforms. And, we even have the occasional wolf standing boldly in plain sight.
1st, the Bold Lone Wolf.
Your cartels, gangbangers, and politicians are the bold wolves, that don't mind standing out in front and daring you to come after them. In general, the sheepdogs are ineffective at controlling the bold wolves, so they concentrate on the ornery sheep. It is much easier to keep the sheep in their pen, than it is to keep the wolf out. In some cases it is even easier to sacrifice a sheep here and there to keep the wolf happy and fed and protect the rest of the herd!
2nd, the Wolf in Sheeps Clothing.
We dedicate a lot of resources to tracking and finding these wolves, even though they are not responsible for a high number of crimes. These wolves scare us the most. They are the boogeyman. A large amount of the sheepdogs time is spent harassing the sheep and looking for one that doesn't quite fit.
3rd, we have the Wolves dressed up like Sheepdogs.
These are the ones we despise the most! These are the ones trusted with our care, but instead they abuse their own herd. These are the ones that can't quite make it as a lone wolf, but they are too mean and nasty to live as a sheep, so they find a niche. They harass, bully, and torment the docile sheep, but they don't dare step on the toes of a real wolf. They are a nuisance and a danger to the peaceful sheep and the dedicated sheepdogs. They throw a kink in the whole operation. The other categories could all reach an equilibrium and function pretty well together if we could get rid of these guys. They are an enemy to everyone and a friend to no one. They are despised equally by the sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs! These are the ones that ATS loves to crucify!
IMHO:
We need more John Wayne/Marshall Dillon/Rifleman type Sheepdogs. The type that will stand up for whatever is right, despite the consequences, and despite their affiliation or loyalties. The type that see their job as a duty, and are ruled only by their own strict moral code and the basic laws of the land. We need less people just getting jobs in law enforcment. We need to focus more resources on finding the corruption in Law Enforcement, we need to focus more resources on facing down the Bold Wolves in politics and gangs, and we need to devote less resources to policing the sheep and finding the occasional serial killer. Those things take care of themselves in time, but the habitual offenders that are openly and publicly mocking the whole justice system only get worse and worse over time.
We need to police the police and stand up to the criminals. Let the sheep do their own thing!
Thank You for your answers SKL!
Here is my take. Law Enforcement has become too much of a "job" and not enough of a "duty." Therefore we now have a lot of sheep dressed up like sheepdogs. They are scared, they have no real intention of sacrificing their life for another, and in reality they are only there for the paycheck. This creates a lot of problems. I would rather be bitten by a mean dog than a skittish scared one. The mean dog charges head on, the skittish one waits til you turn around and nips your ankles.
Then, we have the Wolves. All hunters and predators know that the best method of catching prey is to surprise it. Camoflage, Disquise, stalking, etc. Therefore, we have wolves in sheeps clothing, and we have wolves in sheepdog uniforms. And, we even have the occasional wolf standing boldly in plain sight.
1st, the Bold Lone Wolf.
Your cartels, gangbangers, and politicians are the bold wolves, that don't mind standing out in front and daring you to come after them. In general, the sheepdogs are ineffective at controlling the bold wolves, so they concentrate on the ornery sheep. It is much easier to keep the sheep in their pen, than it is to keep the wolf out. In some cases it is even easier to sacrifice a sheep here and there to keep the wolf happy and fed and protect the rest of the herd!
2nd, the Wolf in Sheeps Clothing.
We dedicate a lot of resources to tracking and finding these wolves, even though they are not responsible for a high number of crimes. These wolves scare us the most. They are the boogeyman. A large amount of the sheepdogs time is spent harassing the sheep and looking for one that doesn't quite fit.
3rd, we have the Wolves dressed up like Sheepdogs.
These are the ones we despise the most! These are the ones trusted with our care, but instead they abuse their own herd. These are the ones that can't quite make it as a lone wolf, but they are too mean and nasty to live as a sheep, so they find a niche. They harass, bully, and torment the docile sheep, but they don't dare step on the toes of a real wolf. They are a nuisance and a danger to the peaceful sheep and the dedicated sheepdogs. They throw a kink in the whole operation. The other categories could all reach an equilibrium and function pretty well together if we could get rid of these guys. They are an enemy to everyone and a friend to no one. They are despised equally by the sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs! These are the ones that ATS loves to crucify!
IMHO:
We need more John Wayne/Marshall Dillon/Rifleman type Sheepdogs. The type that will stand up for whatever is right, despite the consequences, and despite their affiliation or loyalties. The type that see their job as a duty, and are ruled only by their own strict moral code and the basic laws of the land. We need less people just getting jobs in law enforcment. We need to focus more resources on finding the corruption in Law Enforcement, we need to focus more resources on facing down the Bold Wolves in politics and gangs, and we need to devote less resources to policing the sheep and finding the occasional serial killer. Those things take care of themselves in time, but the habitual offenders that are openly and publicly mocking the whole justice system only get worse and worse over time.
We need to police the police and stand up to the criminals. Let the sheep do their own thing!
reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas
Sorry it took me a bit to get back here - those two dreaded time sinks of sleep and then work called.
Ok - where were we?
Does the website that made the stats I linked have an agenda? Quite likely they do.
But these days, who doesn't have an agenda? I'm including basically everything in that - anyone who speaks up on a topic (including posters here), the media, the government, various groups, etc. They all have their agendas.
Kind of like I got called on a research poll a few weeks ago. One of the questions was, "Do you support strip clubs and adult businesses moving into our neighborhoods and bringing prostitution and other crimes close to our homes, schools and churches?!?!?!"" I just laughed and hung up. But, I'm sure the answers to that got published somewhere as a valid statistic.
Point being - you either have to decide who trust or take info from the various sides and try to ferrett your own truth out of it.
It is likely the agenda of the site I linked to show that officers do commit crimes fairly often and they often get light punishments when caught.
Another site might be slanted to show that officers hardly ever do anything wrong and if they do they are either victims themselves or if not punished harshly.
The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.
Doh -I almost forgot your questions. My answer "No".
If it be "bad" committed by the public or "bad" committed by officers - I'm sure there are many things we never hear of. Maybe that is good - maybe that is bad. Either way, it isn't likely to change anytime soon.
You come out and ask my agenda - I like that - straight and to the point.
So here we go....
I've known and worked with various officers. Some where among the finest folks you'd ever want to meet. Some were scum of the earth. Most were just normal folks trying to good at a hard job.
So - what's my agenda?
1st) I know it may not seem like it - but I do actually want to help the image of law enforcement as I think some things they could change to make it better.
2nd) I firmly believe power (especially power granted to protect others) is an awesome responsibility. Abuse of that power (and getting away with it or covering it up) really gets to me. To me that is worse than a wolf who makes no bones about being a wolf. I can actually respect that more than a sheepdog who turns wolf and either lies about it or is protected by the other sheepdogs.
In other words - I have the highest respect for the good officers and I think the bad ones are the lowest of the low. I wish more were done to keep the bad out, boot them out when they are found and lock them away for good. I also wish the good officers would be more vocal against the bad.
Basically, you read countless stories about bad cops, but hardly any about good cops. I know bad news makes news. But I honestly feel the *are* more good cops than bad - so there is some positive PR that could be done to remind the public of that.
Secondly - I honestly feel that law enforcement could do a better job of keeping the bad apples out of the barrel to start with, and kicking them out and punishing them when found.
This goes for anyone - LEO or not - if you don't speak out against evil you see or you attempt to cover for those that commit it - people are going to assume you are ok with it. It is your actions and those of your peers that will largely form the public's perception of you. This goes for everyone.
That's my agenda and thoughts on the matter the best I can sum them up.
Sorry it took me a bit to get back here - those two dreaded time sinks of sleep and then work called.
Ok - where were we?
Does the website that made the stats I linked have an agenda? Quite likely they do.
But these days, who doesn't have an agenda? I'm including basically everything in that - anyone who speaks up on a topic (including posters here), the media, the government, various groups, etc. They all have their agendas.
Kind of like I got called on a research poll a few weeks ago. One of the questions was, "Do you support strip clubs and adult businesses moving into our neighborhoods and bringing prostitution and other crimes close to our homes, schools and churches?!?!?!"" I just laughed and hung up. But, I'm sure the answers to that got published somewhere as a valid statistic.
Point being - you either have to decide who trust or take info from the various sides and try to ferrett your own truth out of it.
It is likely the agenda of the site I linked to show that officers do commit crimes fairly often and they often get light punishments when caught.
Another site might be slanted to show that officers hardly ever do anything wrong and if they do they are either victims themselves or if not punished harshly.
The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.
Doh -I almost forgot your questions. My answer "No".
If it be "bad" committed by the public or "bad" committed by officers - I'm sure there are many things we never hear of. Maybe that is good - maybe that is bad. Either way, it isn't likely to change anytime soon.
You come out and ask my agenda - I like that - straight and to the point.
So here we go....
I've known and worked with various officers. Some where among the finest folks you'd ever want to meet. Some were scum of the earth. Most were just normal folks trying to good at a hard job.
So - what's my agenda?
1st) I know it may not seem like it - but I do actually want to help the image of law enforcement as I think some things they could change to make it better.
2nd) I firmly believe power (especially power granted to protect others) is an awesome responsibility. Abuse of that power (and getting away with it or covering it up) really gets to me. To me that is worse than a wolf who makes no bones about being a wolf. I can actually respect that more than a sheepdog who turns wolf and either lies about it or is protected by the other sheepdogs.
In other words - I have the highest respect for the good officers and I think the bad ones are the lowest of the low. I wish more were done to keep the bad out, boot them out when they are found and lock them away for good. I also wish the good officers would be more vocal against the bad.
Basically, you read countless stories about bad cops, but hardly any about good cops. I know bad news makes news. But I honestly feel the *are* more good cops than bad - so there is some positive PR that could be done to remind the public of that.
Secondly - I honestly feel that law enforcement could do a better job of keeping the bad apples out of the barrel to start with, and kicking them out and punishing them when found.
This goes for anyone - LEO or not - if you don't speak out against evil you see or you attempt to cover for those that commit it - people are going to assume you are ok with it. It is your actions and those of your peers that will largely form the public's perception of you. This goes for everyone.
That's my agenda and thoughts on the matter the best I can sum them up.
Before I get back to answering individual posts and adding more to this discussion, I would like to say something, completely towards everyone, within
this thread.
Bravo.
I applaud everyone's effort to discuss the nature of this thread with civility.
Sorry, I have to say that, because quite honestly, I hate the Cop-hater threads.
I defend just as much decry Law Enforcement in all regards.
I am not anti-Government, just as I am not anti-Law Enforcement, I am anti-corruption.
People often mistake my thoughts on Government, Law Enforcement, or Military, as being against them wholly, which is untrue, it is the issues of society.
Corruption happens, but so does apathy, and through that, ignorance.
As well as Cop-hater threads, I am beginning to hate Government-hate threads.
As far as I am concerned, if you're not a part of the solution, you're a part of the problem.
To some degree, we as a society, are all responsible for everything that happens to our country, either through intelligence, negligence, malfeasance, you name it, if you want it changed, do something positive to change it.
Otherwise, you're not only crying wolf, you in essence become the wolf, through ignorance.
Sheep are there, of course, but so are wolves, through ignorance.
In all levels of society.
See, there are ways to take back this country, legally, and without violence.
By the age of 18 I knew how to overthrow any country by violent means.
Meaning staging coups, directing military actions, because of the Art of War.
And at 18 if you had asked me to that I would have done one of two things.
1) Laughed at you for asking me to betray my country.
2) Turned you in as a subversive element to the F.B.I.
I have always been committed to my country, in all ways, however my Government is another matter, due to my knowledge of how Government works, the corruption within it, the incessant and idiotic bickering of "left-wing" verse "right-wing".
Yes, it happens within Government, just as much as it happens within our communities.
That is what most people miss about the Conspiracy Theories.
It is that Government itself is in an ever-changing state of turmoil.
And sometimes we as citizens get caught in the crossfire and backlash.
reply to post by getreadyalready
I could say so much to you in regards to your reply, getreadyalready.
However, I will let the above statement stand, as a part of my reply to you.
And recommend three books to you that I see as delving deeper into what you said.
The Secret Life of Houdini: The Making of America's First Superhero
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/bbcca7dc9d1d.jpg[/atsimg]
Houdini assisted Scotland Yard during his days.
Not only that but he figured out every level, every level of Government, up to, and including the White House, was infiltrated, by "Spiritualists".
As well he taught the Doughboys of WWI how to escape sinking ships, being tied up, and other intriguing things.
The Secret Service: The Hidden History of an Engimatic Agency
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/8306ede4bc58.jpg[/atsimg]
The Secret Service at one time operated in an Intelligence capacity.
J. Edgar Hoover jealously went after them to try to take it away.
And to a degree he succeeded.
The Underground Empire: Where Crime and Governments Embrace
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/38066e743191.jpg[/atsimg]
An organization called Centac, short for Central Tactical Unit once existed.
They were taking down drug empires completely.
Until the D.E.A., F.B.I., and C.I.A. hamstrung them and dissolved and or absorbed them.
So, see I do understand exactly where you're coming from, on many levels.
As much as we as a part of society see these problems, so do people within Government, some try to actually do something about it, some assist in covering it up and making it go away, for the most part though I believe a lot are blind to it.
There comes a time when we though, as a fringe society, meaning the conspiracy theory community, have to say enough is enough, and demand change.
We see these things because of our disenfranchisement with those problems that slip through the cracks, because we as well are some of those very people who slip through the cracks, and this is why sometimes we are seen as a threat.
Hence we get operations like COINTELPRO.
Or the M.I.A.C. Report fiasco happens.
And why the Grassroots movements are infiltrated by Agent Provocateurs.
This of course is why events like Oklahoma City or 9/11 happen as well.
It is a groupthink mentality not only within society but with Government.
And as far as I am concerned while it has its benefit it is as well a dangerous thought process.
This is where the mob mentality grows from.
Where the ignorant jump onto a bandwagon riding straight into Hell.
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/02156645499d.jpg[/atsimg]
And this is where not only 1984 but Animal Farm very literally happen.
[edit on 10-8-2010 by SpartanKingLeonidas]
Bravo.
I applaud everyone's effort to discuss the nature of this thread with civility.
Sorry, I have to say that, because quite honestly, I hate the Cop-hater threads.
I defend just as much decry Law Enforcement in all regards.
I am not anti-Government, just as I am not anti-Law Enforcement, I am anti-corruption.
People often mistake my thoughts on Government, Law Enforcement, or Military, as being against them wholly, which is untrue, it is the issues of society.
Corruption happens, but so does apathy, and through that, ignorance.
As well as Cop-hater threads, I am beginning to hate Government-hate threads.
As far as I am concerned, if you're not a part of the solution, you're a part of the problem.
To some degree, we as a society, are all responsible for everything that happens to our country, either through intelligence, negligence, malfeasance, you name it, if you want it changed, do something positive to change it.
Otherwise, you're not only crying wolf, you in essence become the wolf, through ignorance.
Sheep are there, of course, but so are wolves, through ignorance.
In all levels of society.
See, there are ways to take back this country, legally, and without violence.
By the age of 18 I knew how to overthrow any country by violent means.
Meaning staging coups, directing military actions, because of the Art of War.
And at 18 if you had asked me to that I would have done one of two things.
1) Laughed at you for asking me to betray my country.
2) Turned you in as a subversive element to the F.B.I.
I have always been committed to my country, in all ways, however my Government is another matter, due to my knowledge of how Government works, the corruption within it, the incessant and idiotic bickering of "left-wing" verse "right-wing".
Yes, it happens within Government, just as much as it happens within our communities.
That is what most people miss about the Conspiracy Theories.
It is that Government itself is in an ever-changing state of turmoil.
And sometimes we as citizens get caught in the crossfire and backlash.
reply to post by getreadyalready
I could say so much to you in regards to your reply, getreadyalready.
However, I will let the above statement stand, as a part of my reply to you.
And recommend three books to you that I see as delving deeper into what you said.
The Secret Life of Houdini: The Making of America's First Superhero
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/bbcca7dc9d1d.jpg[/atsimg]
Partial Amazon Review :
Handcuff King.
Escape Artist.
International Superstar.
Since his death eighty years ago, Harry Houdini's life has been chronicled in books, in film, and on television.
Houdini assisted Scotland Yard during his days.
Not only that but he figured out every level, every level of Government, up to, and including the White House, was infiltrated, by "Spiritualists".
As well he taught the Doughboys of WWI how to escape sinking ships, being tied up, and other intriguing things.
The Secret Service: The Hidden History of an Engimatic Agency
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/8306ede4bc58.jpg[/atsimg]
Partial Amazon Review :
This new edition of the definitive history of the Secret Service lays bare the 2004 Bush campaign’s political uses of the agency and the new challenges it faces as a branch of the Homeland Security Department, in a post-9/11 world.
Acclaimed scholar of political violence and governmental secrecy Philip Melanson explores the long-hidden workings of the Secret Service since its inception in 1865 and through rigorous research and extensive interviews with former White House staffers and retired agents, uncovers startling facts about the Agency’s role in such traumatic national events as the assassination of JFK and the shooting of President Reagan.
The Secret Service at one time operated in an Intelligence capacity.
J. Edgar Hoover jealously went after them to try to take it away.
And to a degree he succeeded.
The Underground Empire: Where Crime and Governments Embrace
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/38066e743191.jpg[/atsimg]
Quote from : The Underground Empire - Where Crime and Governments Embrace : Excerpt
[Page 3:] The inhabitants of the earth spend more money on illegal drugs than they spend on food.
More than they spend on housing, clothes, education, medical care, or any other product or service.
The international narcotics industry is the largest growth industry in the world.
An organization called Centac, short for Central Tactical Unit once existed.
They were taking down drug empires completely.
Until the D.E.A., F.B.I., and C.I.A. hamstrung them and dissolved and or absorbed them.
So, see I do understand exactly where you're coming from, on many levels.
As much as we as a part of society see these problems, so do people within Government, some try to actually do something about it, some assist in covering it up and making it go away, for the most part though I believe a lot are blind to it.
There comes a time when we though, as a fringe society, meaning the conspiracy theory community, have to say enough is enough, and demand change.
We see these things because of our disenfranchisement with those problems that slip through the cracks, because we as well are some of those very people who slip through the cracks, and this is why sometimes we are seen as a threat.
Hence we get operations like COINTELPRO.
Or the M.I.A.C. Report fiasco happens.
And why the Grassroots movements are infiltrated by Agent Provocateurs.
This of course is why events like Oklahoma City or 9/11 happen as well.
It is a groupthink mentality not only within society but with Government.
Quote from : Wikipedia : Groupthink
Groupthink is a type of thought within a deeply cohesive in-group whose members try to minimize conflict and reach consensus without critically testing, analyzing, and evaluating ideas.
It is a second potential negative consequence of group cohesion.
And as far as I am concerned while it has its benefit it is as well a dangerous thought process.
This is where the mob mentality grows from.
Where the ignorant jump onto a bandwagon riding straight into Hell.
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/02156645499d.jpg[/atsimg]
And this is where not only 1984 but Animal Farm very literally happen.
[edit on 10-8-2010 by SpartanKingLeonidas]
reply to post by Frogs
Well, first off, no need to apologize for length of time getting back.
Everyone on here has a normal life, or some semi-normal lives.
Of course that website more than likely has an agenda.
Unfortunately, that is what immediately what makes their information suspect, to me.
I would much rather take the lies from Government and decipher them.
Meaning, it is a challenge, for me to sort, sift, and untangle the propaganda.
Something I wholeheartedly love to dig through because it becomes a puzzle.
And I love puzzles, mazes, deciphering information, decrypting that information.
In a sense.
That poll you said came to you via phone call sounds like a politician trying to get your vote.
I trust no one and ferret out my own truth as I look at everyone with the same skeptical eye.
After a point in my life it came to me in a realization no one was going to help me.
But me.
I agree the truth is in the middle.
Which is why I do not lean left nor right.
I am a Centrist.
And I try to be straight and to the point.
No sugar-coating crap because sugar-coated crap is still crap.
You cannot polish a turd because under the varnish it's still a turd.
Which is why I am as direct as possible if possible.
As I said in the post above I defend Law Enforcement as much as I decry it.
A thread where a video got posted about an encounter with Law Enforcement turned into the typical Cop-hater thread, yet I tore it all apart completely.
The video was a complete fake and hoax.
But no one wanted to hear that they all became bandwagon riders.
With power comes great responsibility.
And I commend your thoughts and your agenda.
I agree in my experience that there are far more good Officer's than the bad ones.
I know I said I love a challenge in deciphering things but there is an exception.
Which is why I as well challenged your agenda.
Someone deceiving me about their intent through any means up to and including misrepresenting themselves, and or not identifying themselves in the beginning.
And no, that is not directed at you, specifically, it is more of a statement than anything.
I relegate that towards game-players.
In relationships I have dated those women who play games, yes means no, no means yes, all that irritating crap, that I see as petty little crap, the same happens here.
On ATS.
And in real life in regards to males, females, bosses, co-workers, and yes, Law Enforcement.
I say that meaning someone hiding their intent is easily seen by me.
Again, not towards you, or anyone else directly and or specifically within this thread.
When this happens I go on both the defensive and offensive.
Using tactics.
And I tear into that challenge like no other tearing down all levels of deception.
Analyze, estimate, engage.
So, this is why I tend to go straight to the heart of the matter, it is why I get results.
Sometimes this makes me friends, sometimes it makes me enemies, sometimes it just rocks the boat, and makes me the man I am today through my experiences.
But that is how life is at times for everyone.
You cannot please everyone all the time, nor can you displease everyone all the time.
And I see life as either live or die there are no games in life.
Except the board games on the family table or in the sports arenas.
I am grateful to this day that I took after my stepfather.
He was a man who would rather play sports than watch them.
And due to his hard work he never had time to play sports so he did not bother watching.
Nose to the grindstone and I am just like him.
[edit on 10-8-2010 by SpartanKingLeonidas]
Well, first off, no need to apologize for length of time getting back.
Everyone on here has a normal life, or some semi-normal lives.
Of course that website more than likely has an agenda.
Unfortunately, that is what immediately what makes their information suspect, to me.
I would much rather take the lies from Government and decipher them.
Meaning, it is a challenge, for me to sort, sift, and untangle the propaganda.
Something I wholeheartedly love to dig through because it becomes a puzzle.
And I love puzzles, mazes, deciphering information, decrypting that information.
In a sense.
That poll you said came to you via phone call sounds like a politician trying to get your vote.
I trust no one and ferret out my own truth as I look at everyone with the same skeptical eye.
After a point in my life it came to me in a realization no one was going to help me.
But me.
I agree the truth is in the middle.
Which is why I do not lean left nor right.
I am a Centrist.
And I try to be straight and to the point.
No sugar-coating crap because sugar-coated crap is still crap.
You cannot polish a turd because under the varnish it's still a turd.
Which is why I am as direct as possible if possible.
As I said in the post above I defend Law Enforcement as much as I decry it.
A thread where a video got posted about an encounter with Law Enforcement turned into the typical Cop-hater thread, yet I tore it all apart completely.
The video was a complete fake and hoax.
But no one wanted to hear that they all became bandwagon riders.
With power comes great responsibility.
And I commend your thoughts and your agenda.
I agree in my experience that there are far more good Officer's than the bad ones.
I know I said I love a challenge in deciphering things but there is an exception.
Which is why I as well challenged your agenda.
Someone deceiving me about their intent through any means up to and including misrepresenting themselves, and or not identifying themselves in the beginning.
And no, that is not directed at you, specifically, it is more of a statement than anything.
I relegate that towards game-players.
In relationships I have dated those women who play games, yes means no, no means yes, all that irritating crap, that I see as petty little crap, the same happens here.
On ATS.
And in real life in regards to males, females, bosses, co-workers, and yes, Law Enforcement.
I say that meaning someone hiding their intent is easily seen by me.
Again, not towards you, or anyone else directly and or specifically within this thread.
When this happens I go on both the defensive and offensive.
Using tactics.
And I tear into that challenge like no other tearing down all levels of deception.
Analyze, estimate, engage.
So, this is why I tend to go straight to the heart of the matter, it is why I get results.
Sometimes this makes me friends, sometimes it makes me enemies, sometimes it just rocks the boat, and makes me the man I am today through my experiences.
But that is how life is at times for everyone.
You cannot please everyone all the time, nor can you displease everyone all the time.
And I see life as either live or die there are no games in life.
Except the board games on the family table or in the sports arenas.
I am grateful to this day that I took after my stepfather.
He was a man who would rather play sports than watch them.
And due to his hard work he never had time to play sports so he did not bother watching.
Nose to the grindstone and I am just like him.
[edit on 10-8-2010 by SpartanKingLeonidas]
reply to post by mistafaz
Since another member mentioned the Cato Institute I will mention this book.
The Cult of the Presidency: America's Dangerous Devotion to Executive Power
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/995a50b011c3.jpg[/atsimg]
Gene Healey works for the Cato Institute.
The book was riveting in just how President's gain and manipulate power.
Never waste a disaster according to Healey.
I get the Cato Institute's newsletter among others.
[edit on 10-8-2010 by SpartanKingLeonidas]
Since another member mentioned the Cato Institute I will mention this book.
The Cult of the Presidency: America's Dangerous Devotion to Executive Power
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/995a50b011c3.jpg[/atsimg]
Partial Amazon Review :
The Bush years have given rise to fears of a resurgent Imperial Presidency.
Those fears are justified, but the problem cannot be solved simply by bringing a new administration to power.
In his provocative new book, The Cult of the Presidency, Gene Healy argues that the fault lies not in our leaders but in ourselves.
Gene Healey works for the Cato Institute.
Quote from : Wikipedia Cato Institute
The Cato Institute is a libertarian think tank headquartered in Washington, D.C.
It was founded by Charles Koch, chairman of the board and chief executive officer of the oil conglomerate Koch Industries, Inc., the second largest privately held company (after Cargill) by revenue in the United States, together with Edward H. Crane and Murray Rothbard in 1977.
The book was riveting in just how President's gain and manipulate power.
Never waste a disaster according to Healey.
I get the Cato Institute's newsletter among others.
[edit on 10-8-2010 by SpartanKingLeonidas]
Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas
As I said in the post above I defend Law Enforcement as much as I decry it.
[edit on 10-8-2010 by SpartanKingLeonidas]
First understood - no worries about asking my agenda. Between you and I all is well from my standpoint too.
Also, I understand your quote above. Based on what I said in when I was talking about my agenda. I wouldn't be true to what I said if I didn't speak out when I see wrong being done.
But, it has to be proven to me. In a recent thread a cop shot a dog. In the linked story the owner says it went one way, the cop says it went another. There are no pictures, no film.. no nothing. Its impossible to say how it actually went down.
Originally posted by Frogs
First understood - no worries about asking my agenda. Between you and I all is well from my standpoint too.
Of course.
Originally posted by Frogs
Also, I understand your quote above. Based on what I said in when I was talking about my agenda. I wouldn't be true to what I said if I didn't speak out when I see wrong being done.
This is where I try to look at what the topic is speaking to.
And why I hate Cop-hater threads.
They tend to become a barrel full of monkeys flinging poo.
Just a dogpile trashing Law Enforcement because they can.
I have seen information supplied which was true, false, perception based upon the event, idiots who were doing illegal things, all of the above.
Hey, I understand, if the event happens to someone, but some people have a complete disregard for authority, and while I respect people living their lives, some of it is completely nonsense, due to parenting issues.
And that is in no way an excuse for corruption either.
I have been and always will be a Centrist.
I was at one time, in my youth, into my late teens to mid-20's "right-wing".
Due to the way I was raised under a Christian environment.
Some of it good, some of it ignorant, and of it I had my head up my ass.
Eventually, I went over towards "left-wing", and then bounced back to the middle.
Originally posted by Frogs
But, it has to be proven to me. In a recent thread a cop shot a dog. In the linked story the owner says it went one way, the cop says it went another. There are no pictures, no film.. no nothing. Its impossible to say how it actually went down.
This is of course where a Law Enforcement Officer's word comes against a citizen, no matter what type of citizen, law-abiding, criminal, drug user.
Some see it differently, some are arguing just to cause problems.
And then there is the complete problem of reliable information.
And eyewitnesses, credible, or otherwise.
[edit on 10-8-2010 by SpartanKingLeonidas]
reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas
I agree with Frog's post at 16:15.
Most sheep dogs are protector's but some do turn into wolves.
With each passing year, there seems to be more and more police violence.
Now, I have come across the police where I live very rarely.
I live in a nice middle class suburb.
The few times we did encounter the police they were decent. But, my husband and I go to work, come home, don't drink and drive, don't go through stop signs, speed, do drugs or anything (other than some of my wild posts here on ATS) that would constitute breaking the law.
And we must have law and order.
I wouldn't want to live in a place where there is no law enforcement.
However, we MUST safeguard that once a sheep dog does turn into a wolve, he/she is promptly removed.
As mentioned in a previous post, I had a sleep study done a few years back. While hooking me up to the mega bunch of wires, I could see the technician was very pregnant and asked her, "Will this be your first baby?".
The look that came over her will haunt me until I take my last breath. The pain in her tearing up eyes, was immense.
"No, I had a son, a baby boy and some soldiers burst into our house and grabbed him by the ankle held him up and killed him with a machete. I could not stop them, I could only watch".
To have something like this happen to have to experience something so horrendous and survive each day with having gone through such a tramatic experience.
Most Americans (except for the homeless) sit smug and safe within their homes, knowing that if they pressed 911 someone with a gun would be there to protect them within minutes.
Most Americans pretend to know what "living rough" is, but actually most of us drive around in our big SUV's, sipping our McDonald lattes and live in relative comfort, having no comphrension of what many of our fellow human beings must endure on a daily basis.
One concern, and I think everyone should read Naomi Wolf's two books, Give Me Liberty and The Losing of America.
I am 58 years old and have watched America change.
Police are becoming more like "corporate goons" being told (I am assuming) to "make more money for the city/suburb" they work in, which means not protecting and serving but trying to catch people breaking any small law.
I'm not saying to break the law is good, but looking for excuses to fine someone.
Cameras going up on every street corner, particularly when the light changes from green to red in under 1 second, another way to tax people.
Our laws are suppose to protect and serve THE PEOPLE not mess with them and drag more money out of them.
Most people on the crowded roads between 7-9 AM and 4-6 PM are working, tax paying citizens.
I see many police out hidden in a unmarked car behind bushes waiting to catch someone so they can make their ticket quota.
Yet, two years ago in our NW IL suburb, someone went along one June night and smashed about 10-12 car windshields, of which our car was one.
Where were the police? They don't patrol my neighborhood very often, it's a quiet section of our town.
On the plus side: One night about 10 years ago, we heard a knock on the door at 2 AM. We were sleeping - My husband got up, answered the door and came in and got us up saying a police man driving by had noticed our detached garage was on fire, he has called the fire department but we were to get our of the house and move to the far end of our yard.
The garage burnt down, but the house was okay thanks to this police man who at 2:00 AM in the morning spotted this.
We must, as a country be very careful to never allow our police and military to combine into one entity. I think that would imply a fascist state, however from my observation, we as a country are coming dangerously close to this. It's a real possiblity in the making if we citizens keep watching dancing with the stars and don't educate ourselves as to how things are progressing.
“The secret of happiness is freedom. The secret of freedom is courage.” - Thucydides
“He who is brave is free.” - Seneca
The three aims of the tyrant are, one, the humiliation of his subjects; he knows that a mean-spirited man will not conspire against anybody; two, the creation of mistrust among them; for a tyrant is not to be overthrown until men begin to have confidence in one another -- and this is the reason why tyrants are at war with the good; they are under the idea that their power is endangered by them, not only because they will not be ruled despotically, but also because they are too loyal to one another and to other men, and do not inform against one another or against other men -- three, the tyrant desires that all his subjects shall be incapable of action, for no one attempts what is impossible and they will not attempt to overthrow a tyranny if they are powerless. - Aristotle
[edit on 13-8-2010 by ofhumandescent]
I agree with Frog's post at 16:15.
Most sheep dogs are protector's but some do turn into wolves.
With each passing year, there seems to be more and more police violence.
Now, I have come across the police where I live very rarely.
I live in a nice middle class suburb.
The few times we did encounter the police they were decent. But, my husband and I go to work, come home, don't drink and drive, don't go through stop signs, speed, do drugs or anything (other than some of my wild posts here on ATS) that would constitute breaking the law.
And we must have law and order.
I wouldn't want to live in a place where there is no law enforcement.
However, we MUST safeguard that once a sheep dog does turn into a wolve, he/she is promptly removed.
As mentioned in a previous post, I had a sleep study done a few years back. While hooking me up to the mega bunch of wires, I could see the technician was very pregnant and asked her, "Will this be your first baby?".
The look that came over her will haunt me until I take my last breath. The pain in her tearing up eyes, was immense.
"No, I had a son, a baby boy and some soldiers burst into our house and grabbed him by the ankle held him up and killed him with a machete. I could not stop them, I could only watch".
To have something like this happen to have to experience something so horrendous and survive each day with having gone through such a tramatic experience.
Most Americans (except for the homeless) sit smug and safe within their homes, knowing that if they pressed 911 someone with a gun would be there to protect them within minutes.
Most Americans pretend to know what "living rough" is, but actually most of us drive around in our big SUV's, sipping our McDonald lattes and live in relative comfort, having no comphrension of what many of our fellow human beings must endure on a daily basis.
One concern, and I think everyone should read Naomi Wolf's two books, Give Me Liberty and The Losing of America.
I am 58 years old and have watched America change.
Police are becoming more like "corporate goons" being told (I am assuming) to "make more money for the city/suburb" they work in, which means not protecting and serving but trying to catch people breaking any small law.
I'm not saying to break the law is good, but looking for excuses to fine someone.
Cameras going up on every street corner, particularly when the light changes from green to red in under 1 second, another way to tax people.
Our laws are suppose to protect and serve THE PEOPLE not mess with them and drag more money out of them.
Most people on the crowded roads between 7-9 AM and 4-6 PM are working, tax paying citizens.
I see many police out hidden in a unmarked car behind bushes waiting to catch someone so they can make their ticket quota.
Yet, two years ago in our NW IL suburb, someone went along one June night and smashed about 10-12 car windshields, of which our car was one.
Where were the police? They don't patrol my neighborhood very often, it's a quiet section of our town.
On the plus side: One night about 10 years ago, we heard a knock on the door at 2 AM. We were sleeping - My husband got up, answered the door and came in and got us up saying a police man driving by had noticed our detached garage was on fire, he has called the fire department but we were to get our of the house and move to the far end of our yard.
The garage burnt down, but the house was okay thanks to this police man who at 2:00 AM in the morning spotted this.
We must, as a country be very careful to never allow our police and military to combine into one entity. I think that would imply a fascist state, however from my observation, we as a country are coming dangerously close to this. It's a real possiblity in the making if we citizens keep watching dancing with the stars and don't educate ourselves as to how things are progressing.
“The secret of happiness is freedom. The secret of freedom is courage.” - Thucydides
“He who is brave is free.” - Seneca
The three aims of the tyrant are, one, the humiliation of his subjects; he knows that a mean-spirited man will not conspire against anybody; two, the creation of mistrust among them; for a tyrant is not to be overthrown until men begin to have confidence in one another -- and this is the reason why tyrants are at war with the good; they are under the idea that their power is endangered by them, not only because they will not be ruled despotically, but also because they are too loyal to one another and to other men, and do not inform against one another or against other men -- three, the tyrant desires that all his subjects shall be incapable of action, for no one attempts what is impossible and they will not attempt to overthrow a tyranny if they are powerless. - Aristotle
[edit on 13-8-2010 by ofhumandescent]
reply to post by ofhumandescent
America is usually always one step away from tyranny.
Not by Law Enforcement but by politicians out of control.
Through those politicians it is the lobbyists and special interest groups.
The ones controlling the purse strings of the re-election machines.
Our country is supposed to allegedly run via the people who elected these politicians, however, which is wholly untrue, except down at the city levels.
It starts at the top where a President is not elected by popular vote.
Going through the Electoral College instead.
Pretty much everything to subvert the will of the people, lie to them through the fallacy of the bogus American Dream that we're supposed to chase after, and the ignorant portrayal of life on television.
America has been dumbed down to the point of being a watered down and pathetic version of her once glorious intent through many means by people with agendas, politicians who outright lie about their allegiances.
This is why I keep telling people though that speaking of violence and guns is not the answer, that is silly, and as well quite suicidal to an extent.
Our country has to change but not through something which can be pointed to through sedition, or revolution, or even acts of terrorism, those are all things not only illegal, but wrong, immoral, and unethical.
If we truly want a change it has to be one which cannot be stopped.
One which is legal, non-violent, and as well will be followed by everyone.
And it has to happen within our defined communities where we can affect an immediate impact, starting at the bottom, spreading like wildfire.
Freedom is contagious but only if fanned by patriotism through positive intent.
Fascism is contagious as well but only if fanned by ignorance through intent.
Look not to those people running campaigns to get elected to make the change.
Look to ourselves through our desires towards having a civilized country.
Yes, Law Enforcement is very necessary, without it there would be chaos.
Yes, Government is very necessary, without it we would be invaded by outside countries.
Yes, laws are very necessary, without them we would be a country of barbarism.
Like your example where that woman had her baby chopped up in front of her.
I have to say that is how a Third World Country treats it citizens.
As pinatas with machetes.
The troubling part of that is that we sit back like you stated in apathy.
American Idol, Big Brother, The Real World these are wastes of time.
They teach you how to avoid a change while being entertained into submission.
Most people miss how corporations are like not only fiefdoms but Fascist Regimes.
And through those corporations buying politicians we are but one step from tyranny.
If however, we as citizens, can be aware, remain vigilant, and as well effect our change through civility, be the very system we want, through ignoring the bread and circuses, we can ourselves make our country better.
It starts though with knowing Government, how it is necessary, why it is important, and knowing when it is not representing us, but other people's interests.
And that includes Law Enforcement.
[edit on 13-8-2010 by SpartanKingLeonidas]
America is usually always one step away from tyranny.
Not by Law Enforcement but by politicians out of control.
Through those politicians it is the lobbyists and special interest groups.
The ones controlling the purse strings of the re-election machines.
Our country is supposed to allegedly run via the people who elected these politicians, however, which is wholly untrue, except down at the city levels.
It starts at the top where a President is not elected by popular vote.
Going through the Electoral College instead.
Pretty much everything to subvert the will of the people, lie to them through the fallacy of the bogus American Dream that we're supposed to chase after, and the ignorant portrayal of life on television.
America has been dumbed down to the point of being a watered down and pathetic version of her once glorious intent through many means by people with agendas, politicians who outright lie about their allegiances.
This is why I keep telling people though that speaking of violence and guns is not the answer, that is silly, and as well quite suicidal to an extent.
Our country has to change but not through something which can be pointed to through sedition, or revolution, or even acts of terrorism, those are all things not only illegal, but wrong, immoral, and unethical.
If we truly want a change it has to be one which cannot be stopped.
One which is legal, non-violent, and as well will be followed by everyone.
And it has to happen within our defined communities where we can affect an immediate impact, starting at the bottom, spreading like wildfire.
Freedom is contagious but only if fanned by patriotism through positive intent.
Fascism is contagious as well but only if fanned by ignorance through intent.
Look not to those people running campaigns to get elected to make the change.
Look to ourselves through our desires towards having a civilized country.
Yes, Law Enforcement is very necessary, without it there would be chaos.
Yes, Government is very necessary, without it we would be invaded by outside countries.
Yes, laws are very necessary, without them we would be a country of barbarism.
Like your example where that woman had her baby chopped up in front of her.
I have to say that is how a Third World Country treats it citizens.
As pinatas with machetes.
The troubling part of that is that we sit back like you stated in apathy.
American Idol, Big Brother, The Real World these are wastes of time.
They teach you how to avoid a change while being entertained into submission.
Most people miss how corporations are like not only fiefdoms but Fascist Regimes.
And through those corporations buying politicians we are but one step from tyranny.
If however, we as citizens, can be aware, remain vigilant, and as well effect our change through civility, be the very system we want, through ignoring the bread and circuses, we can ourselves make our country better.
It starts though with knowing Government, how it is necessary, why it is important, and knowing when it is not representing us, but other people's interests.
And that includes Law Enforcement.
[edit on 13-8-2010 by SpartanKingLeonidas]
I want to say thank you for inviting me.
Let me kick this off by saying that although I agree in the entirety with what most of you are saying I have to respectfully completely disagree...
It took a lot of time to think of a proper response and word it politely.
Have any of you looked up the definition of enforcer? I have and a lot of different definitions came up. Among them was a general consensus I found.
The idea was to compel somebody to do what someone else wanted. Interesting enough the Wiki definition led me to thug and I laughed. In the end its the truth.
Thugs one and all.
It opens up an interesting line of debate here.
Whose will do they enforce?
Most structures seem to be based on someones opinion of what is and what is not the law. These tend to be politicians. I respect no profession whose paid job is to enforce some else's will on me.
It is usually the local officers job to do what the chief sees as the interpretation of the law. This chief then reports to the mayor and council.
As you climb higher, you get the county sheriffs (or parish in LA). Theirs it seems is a little more complicated
I usually lose interest myself at this point. So lets skip the climb and get to the point. Lord Auction once said something about power and corruption.
It becomes turf to be protected and not about serving and protecting. It has become about what those who are in power want not about the law. I have seen the law let a friends boyfriend out of jail because she grew up next door to the sheriff. I watched a cop walk on charges of domestic violence. You tell me...
I got hit with something awful awhile back. It has never been about justice. It has been someones agenda being pushed on others. Law of the jungle. Ill even give the nay sayers sometimes I have agreed with it.
When I was younger...
It is a cops job to enforce policy of their respective departments. Those departments do not always care to remember that we are a constitutional government.
Now that my rant is out of my system lets get to the more logical side.
The system is completely broken, completely. It is in vast need of a complete overhaul.
It will be quite an unpopular opinion.
If I do become president I will call it Skin all the wolves act (in honor of you SKL )
First I would separate all the IA departments from their locals and Ban all contact other then official
Next would be open records act for all public officials.
Third would be live feed(visual and audio)from all LEO's to a secured location unknown to all officers. Let them feel the touch of the nazi reality.
I am not sure how to accomplish this next part.But they might can learn a few things from private security.
A better command structure seems necessary. You can use it as an excuse to cut out some of the dead weight in command positions.
I have talked to a few officers and they all agreed the only reason they could see getting better was more community involvement and interaction. This was from the LEO's.
Everyday before they go out they will be required to repeat their oaths as officers. everyday...
I know some of you , well probably most are more intelligent then me and have a better and more accurate list on what can be done to fix it.
Let me wrap this up.
The problem right now is that the LEO's are enforcers. They work for their city's power structure and not the people.
Otherwise why buy a 40,000 dollar suv or two when your current vehicle still have at least two years left on them.
Solutions? I am running low on them. As I said before a few will be forced to choose one day. It will literally be between the government and the people they work for. I know where most would side.
Let me kick this off by saying that although I agree in the entirety with what most of you are saying I have to respectfully completely disagree...
It took a lot of time to think of a proper response and word it politely.
Have any of you looked up the definition of enforcer? I have and a lot of different definitions came up. Among them was a general consensus I found.
The idea was to compel somebody to do what someone else wanted. Interesting enough the Wiki definition led me to thug and I laughed. In the end its the truth.
Thugs one and all.
It opens up an interesting line of debate here.
Whose will do they enforce?
Most structures seem to be based on someones opinion of what is and what is not the law. These tend to be politicians. I respect no profession whose paid job is to enforce some else's will on me.
It is usually the local officers job to do what the chief sees as the interpretation of the law. This chief then reports to the mayor and council.
As you climb higher, you get the county sheriffs (or parish in LA). Theirs it seems is a little more complicated
I usually lose interest myself at this point. So lets skip the climb and get to the point. Lord Auction once said something about power and corruption.
It becomes turf to be protected and not about serving and protecting. It has become about what those who are in power want not about the law. I have seen the law let a friends boyfriend out of jail because she grew up next door to the sheriff. I watched a cop walk on charges of domestic violence. You tell me...
I got hit with something awful awhile back. It has never been about justice. It has been someones agenda being pushed on others. Law of the jungle. Ill even give the nay sayers sometimes I have agreed with it.
When I was younger...
It is a cops job to enforce policy of their respective departments. Those departments do not always care to remember that we are a constitutional government.
Now that my rant is out of my system lets get to the more logical side.
The system is completely broken, completely. It is in vast need of a complete overhaul.
It will be quite an unpopular opinion.
If I do become president I will call it Skin all the wolves act (in honor of you SKL )
First I would separate all the IA departments from their locals and Ban all contact other then official
Next would be open records act for all public officials.
Third would be live feed(visual and audio)from all LEO's to a secured location unknown to all officers. Let them feel the touch of the nazi reality.
I am not sure how to accomplish this next part.But they might can learn a few things from private security.
A better command structure seems necessary. You can use it as an excuse to cut out some of the dead weight in command positions.
I have talked to a few officers and they all agreed the only reason they could see getting better was more community involvement and interaction. This was from the LEO's.
Everyday before they go out they will be required to repeat their oaths as officers. everyday...
I know some of you , well probably most are more intelligent then me and have a better and more accurate list on what can be done to fix it.
Let me wrap this up.
The problem right now is that the LEO's are enforcers. They work for their city's power structure and not the people.
Otherwise why buy a 40,000 dollar suv or two when your current vehicle still have at least two years left on them.
Solutions? I am running low on them. As I said before a few will be forced to choose one day. It will literally be between the government and the people they work for. I know where most would side.
reply to post by ripcontrol
Of course.
I know what an enforcer is and always have.
Usually, this is tied to the Mafia, someone who collects extortion money, or protection money.
I can see we're going to disagree to a very large extent.
While I can see your point, to an extent, not all politicians work against the populace.
Of course, the local Police Chief is over that precinct's Officer's, and of course the Chief reports to the City Council and Mayor.
Usually, a local Sheriff is elected, voted in by the populace.
I'm not sure who Lord Auction is at all.
Are you perhaps referencing Lewis Bellenden of Auchnole and Broughton?
As to your reference to those people getting off that is inherent corruption.
The law, did not let those people go, corrupt people did.
Let me reiterate here for you what I keep doing for others elsewhere.
I am not now, nor have I ever been, anti-Government.
Neither am I now, nor have I ever been, anti-Law Enforcement.
I am anti-corruption within those defined systems.
Graft, backdoor dealing, and protecting your buddy with corrupt practices makes me sick.
People like that do not stay around me for long because I make my thoughts known loud and clear.
And that extends to all walks of life as far as I am concerned, not just Law Enforcement.
You are correct, a Law Enforcement Officer's job, is to enforce policy, of a city/county, the laws of the land.
And you are correct that some seem to forget we have a Constitution to protect us.
This is however where our disagreement differs greatly.
The vast majority of citizens have little to no interest in their Constitutional Protections until it is too late.
By majority I am not referencing anyone on ATS because we are in a minority of the populace.
Most American's have no clue what the Constitution says let alone what it means.
There is a vast discrepancy between those who know and who do not know what a law is let alone the Constitution.
Usually it falls to those who are willing to thoroughly research law, lawyers, or Police Officers.
The average citizen could no more care about laws or the Constitution until they are on the offending side of them.
Most people are of the misguided illusion that America is a democracy which it is not.
We are a republic, a Constitutional Republic, and a lot of people have no clue what that means.
Unfortunately, I can concur about the system being broken, it was made imperfect though.
And the weasels, crooks, and corrupt know the loopholes, the majority being lawyers or politicians.
Our entire system of Government needs an overhaul completely.
If this were to happen we would become something much different than a Constitutional Republic.
Of course community involvement is necessary, it is however, what type of community involvement which remains open to interpretation.
Law Enforcement Officer's work towards the collective of an entire community not for individuals.
It is the individuals responsibility to not walk outside of the law.
And equally their responsibility to expose corruption when it is walking around as an embodiment of the law.
Without breaking the law themselves.
Of course.
I know what an enforcer is and always have.
Usually, this is tied to the Mafia, someone who collects extortion money, or protection money.
I can see we're going to disagree to a very large extent.
While I can see your point, to an extent, not all politicians work against the populace.
Of course, the local Police Chief is over that precinct's Officer's, and of course the Chief reports to the City Council and Mayor.
Usually, a local Sheriff is elected, voted in by the populace.
I'm not sure who Lord Auction is at all.
Are you perhaps referencing Lewis Bellenden of Auchnole and Broughton?
As to your reference to those people getting off that is inherent corruption.
The law, did not let those people go, corrupt people did.
Let me reiterate here for you what I keep doing for others elsewhere.
I am not now, nor have I ever been, anti-Government.
Neither am I now, nor have I ever been, anti-Law Enforcement.
I am anti-corruption within those defined systems.
Graft, backdoor dealing, and protecting your buddy with corrupt practices makes me sick.
People like that do not stay around me for long because I make my thoughts known loud and clear.
And that extends to all walks of life as far as I am concerned, not just Law Enforcement.
You are correct, a Law Enforcement Officer's job, is to enforce policy, of a city/county, the laws of the land.
And you are correct that some seem to forget we have a Constitution to protect us.
This is however where our disagreement differs greatly.
The vast majority of citizens have little to no interest in their Constitutional Protections until it is too late.
By majority I am not referencing anyone on ATS because we are in a minority of the populace.
Most American's have no clue what the Constitution says let alone what it means.
There is a vast discrepancy between those who know and who do not know what a law is let alone the Constitution.
Usually it falls to those who are willing to thoroughly research law, lawyers, or Police Officers.
The average citizen could no more care about laws or the Constitution until they are on the offending side of them.
Most people are of the misguided illusion that America is a democracy which it is not.
We are a republic, a Constitutional Republic, and a lot of people have no clue what that means.
Unfortunately, I can concur about the system being broken, it was made imperfect though.
And the weasels, crooks, and corrupt know the loopholes, the majority being lawyers or politicians.
Our entire system of Government needs an overhaul completely.
If this were to happen we would become something much different than a Constitutional Republic.
Of course community involvement is necessary, it is however, what type of community involvement which remains open to interpretation.
Law Enforcement Officer's work towards the collective of an entire community not for individuals.
It is the individuals responsibility to not walk outside of the law.
And equally their responsibility to expose corruption when it is walking around as an embodiment of the law.
Without breaking the law themselves.
edit on 11-9-2010 by SpartanKingLeonidas because: Life happens and there is no edit button in life but there is one here.
Hey Spartan! I would have posted this sooner, but things came up yesterday. So here it is:
Invisible Children: The Power of Survival
This is definitely a prime example of Wolves and a evil predators that we have in the world. Hopefully, this is solved soon my friend. Thank you for allowing me to add this to your thread
Invisible Children: The Power of Survival
This is definitely a prime example of Wolves and a evil predators that we have in the world. Hopefully, this is solved soon my friend. Thank you for allowing me to add this to your thread
Aw, now why once again does such a nice honorable animal such as the wolf have to be vilified?
I wish there was a different and better comparison or example.
A wolf in its natural state is a beautiful thing.
Comparing it to a mentally/emotionally sick and twisted premeditating human just isnt a good thing.
www.defenders.org...#
en.wikipedia.org...
Some cops are Sheepdogs, some cops are wolves,
some people are sheep, some people are wolves.
Wolves are wolves, theyre never sheep, theyre never sheepdogs,and theyre never cops.
Wolves live, travel and hunt in packs of 4-7 animals on average. Packs include the mother and father wolves, called the alphas, their pups and several other subordinate or young animals. The alpha female and male are the pack leaders that track and hunt prey, choose den sites and establish the pack's territory. Wolves develop close relationships and strong social bonds. They often demonstrate deep affection for their family and may even sacrifice themselves to protect the family unit.
Maybe, if we were more like wolves, and not so easily led by food and fear like sheep, we wouldnt be in this weakened condition as a human species.
Better a wolf than a sheep.
I wish there was a different and better comparison or example.
A wolf in its natural state is a beautiful thing.
Comparing it to a mentally/emotionally sick and twisted premeditating human just isnt a good thing.
www.defenders.org...#
en.wikipedia.org...
Some cops are Sheepdogs, some cops are wolves,
some people are sheep, some people are wolves.
Wolves are wolves, theyre never sheep, theyre never sheepdogs,and theyre never cops.
Wolves live, travel and hunt in packs of 4-7 animals on average. Packs include the mother and father wolves, called the alphas, their pups and several other subordinate or young animals. The alpha female and male are the pack leaders that track and hunt prey, choose den sites and establish the pack's territory. Wolves develop close relationships and strong social bonds. They often demonstrate deep affection for their family and may even sacrifice themselves to protect the family unit.
Maybe, if we were more like wolves, and not so easily led by food and fear like sheep, we wouldnt be in this weakened condition as a human species.
Better a wolf than a sheep.
edit on 23-10-2010 by HappilyEverAfter because: to add
Originally posted by SWCCFAN
Folks it would appear that we have a new shadow government. I received this email from a friend that is involved. I have included it on here for the purpose of either confirming or debunking it.
Provost Marshalls to Serve Notice To Governors of All 50 States: www.abovetopsecret.com...
My first thread was on this topic: www.abovetopsecret.com...
Another tread covered it here: www.abovetopsecret.com...
Tim Turner of RAP has 30 metric tonnes of Gold: www.abovetopsecret.com...
October 21, 2010
Notification for Public Release our New Documentation
To Whom It May Concern:
We welcome you to the Republic of the united States of America. The link above is for your review and consideration as you are looking into becoming a part of the re-inhabited Republic of the united States of America. We at the Republic are showing the People that they are the true fourth branch of government. Our goal and intention is to give the power back to the People. We need you (The People) to understand the difference of a Republic and a Democracy.
Included in this package are the following documents:
This Cover letter
Declaration of Sovereign Rights held by Indigenous Power
This is a document you would sign
Definitions are to be printed as a back page on this document
Declaration of Independence July, 4th 1776 - Circa 2010
This is a document you would sign in the open are below
Jural Covenant of Office for Republic state Settlement (Optional sign)
This document is if you wish to be a part of the following
Assembly
Jury
Explanation for Declaration of Sovereign Rights held by Indigenous Power
Explanation of Declaration of Independence
Explanation for the Jural Covenant of Office
Please sign the three documents and fax them to (949) 419-2623 or scan them and send them to [email protected].
Once your information is checked into the system, you will be receiving information on how you may receive your very own Republic identification cards. This will come to you via the email information that you have provided.
Thank you and May God bless you,
The Republic of the untied States of America
Media Relations: (269) 978-5630
Fax: (949) 416-2623
Email: [email protected]
Website: www.RepublicoftheunitedStates.org...
How to Sign up On-Line: republicoftheunitedstates.org...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------
So ATS lets do what we do best!
Yup,lawfully and without violence..
If only I could find something I considered proof that this was real!!!.
I read about the serving of all governors earlier this year,and heard about it on TV a few days later.
The media made it sound like a bunch of nut-job nonsense.
The method according to the website seems OK,from my studies of common law etc.in past years.
Now,we wait.
reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas
Law enforcement has become a wall between the commoner and the royalty.
A Mis-placement of both trust and authority.
A Mis-placement of both trust and authority.
reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas
The constitution has been abrugated(sp) since before 1871.
Once again it comes up,that things never returned to what was considered right before the civil war.
We are not a party to the constitution.
Constitutional rights don't exist,the constitution grants privileges to the government,which are revocable by the people.
In order that the god given rights of the people not be infringed by government.
The government does not have the right to grant privileges except in special circumstances,as in corporate charter,or when a crime is committed.
Once again it comes up,that things never returned to what was considered right before the civil war.
We are not a party to the constitution.
Constitutional rights don't exist,the constitution grants privileges to the government,which are revocable by the people.
In order that the god given rights of the people not be infringed by government.
The government does not have the right to grant privileges except in special circumstances,as in corporate charter,or when a crime is committed.
edit on 24-10-2010 by chiponbothshoulders because: Missed something
Originally posted by TheMythLives
Hey Spartan! I would have posted this sooner, but things came up yesterday. So here it is:
Invisible Children: The Power of Survival
This is definitely a prime example of Wolves and a evil predators that we have in the world. Hopefully, this is solved soon my friend. Thank you for allowing me to add this to your thread
No worries.
A perfect example of the "wolves" in society.
Unfortunately, I do not see anyone trying to "solve" this issue, ever.
I continually ask why certain things never seem to be solved and or resolved.
And the answer always comes back that no one is seeking to solve them.
Funding and needing a reason to exist is always the answer.
This is one of the reasons why no one has the balls to go after the Golden Triangle or Golden Crescent.
Everyone knows where the drugs are grown but no one bothers stopping the source.
Instead of going after the supply, Government takes out the stupid foot soldiers, instead of doing their job.
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