Sheepdogs vs. Wolves : Law Enforcement, Predators and Prey, and Love or Hate Cops...

Since noticing the Bully Pulpit forum area especially in regards to the Social Issues area, I thought it might be about time to take a long, hard look at Law Enforcement.

This is not some apologist thread for those Law Enforcement Officer's here on ATS.

Nor is it something to condemn and or trash them in any way because I see it as a bigger problem.

All Law Enforcement Officers on ATS know I have respect for them because they're here.

Even the Undercover Officer's, the "Government Agents", and Agent Provocateurs.

It is the social fabric of how America and the world works and the ignorance's society places upon those wearing their selective uniforms, where they go day in and day out to fight crime.

Under the separation of power's Law Enforcement falls under the Judiciary Branch.

Quote from : Wikipedia : Separation of Powers

The separation of powers, is a model for the governance of democratic states.

The model was first developed in ancient Greece and came into widespread use by the Roman Republic as part of the uncodified Constitution of the Roman Republic.

Under this model, the state is divided into branches, each with separate and independent powers and areas of responsibility.

The normal division of branches is into an executive, a legislature, and a judiciary.

Under the United States Department of Justice, Law Enforcement falls under direct jurisdiction of the Executive Branch, but dependent upon Federal or Civil law, they enforce certain laws, under the Attorney General of the United States.

This works in tandem with the Judiciary Branch, whereas the Legislslative Branch makes the law, Judiciary interprets the law, and Law Enforcement Officer's carry out and enforce those laws.

Quote from : Wikipedia : U.S. Department of Justice

The United States Department of Justice (often referred to as the Justice Department or DOJ), is the United States federal executive department responsible for the enforcement of the law and administration of justice, equivalent to the justice or interior ministries of other countries.

The Department is led by the Attorney General, who is nominated by the President and confirmed by the Senate and is a member of the Cabinet.

The current Attorney General is Eric Holder.

They are the enforcement arm of the courts, where decisions happen day in and day out about law-abiding citizens, criminals, miscreants, and all sorts of people are brought to face charges.

Often, criminal in nature, more often than not something that happened badly requiring a court appearance.

Before I go much further I want to emphasize something most people misconstrue about America.

Our country is not a democracy.

Most people know nothing of our origins through the Founding Fathers.

This country was based around Ancient Rome, with it being a republic.

As well this country was based around Ancient Greece, with many states.

13 states originally of course with room for expansion.

We are a republic and as such practice democracy.

Quote from : Wikipedia : Republic

A republic is a form of government in which at least a part of its people have some element of formal control over its government, and in which the head of state is not a monarch.

The word "republic" is derived from the Latin phrase res publica, which can be translated as "a public affair".

If you doubt me I can point to something you all began reciting at one point in your young lives.

Quote from : Wikipedia : Pledge of Allegiance

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Bolded by SKL

Something we have all said, repeated, and or recited since our first days of school.

Red Skelton's Pledge of Allegiance


Even deeper, we are a constitutional republic, something far more meaningful.

Quote from : Wikipedia : Constitutional Republic

A constitutional republic is a state where the head of state and other officials are representatives of the people and must govern according to existing constitutional law that limits the government's power over citizens.

In a constitutional republic, executive, legislative, and judicial powers are separated into distinct branches.

The fact that a constitution exists that limits the government's power makes the state constitutional.

Yes, yes, I have outlined some things that are not necessarily immediate towards the topic.

But a basic understanding of our country is necessary if we're going to discuss this topic.

Because it goes deep, branches out on many spectrum's, and touches all levels of society.

On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs

The above story was given to me as a print out and I found a website containing it.

I highly suggest you read it about how those in a combat situation act.

I will quote a small portion of it here for you.

Quote from : On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs

One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me:

"Most of the people in our society are sheep.

They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident."

This is true.

Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year.

What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another.

Bolded by SKL

The story sure is one that inspires people to think long and hard about "combat".

Because for most of us do not realize, day in and day out, Law Enforcement is in a state of combat.

If you remember though I said this was no mere apologist thread for Law Enforcement?

Well, I meant it, and I intend to make this a level thread, for equal footing.

Law Enforcement, those who love them, and those who love to hate them.

In a sense it will be a bit of the good, the bad, and the ugly.

The Good, The Bad & The Ugly Theme 1966


Sorry, I just could not resist, now on with the topic.

You might wonder why I give a damn, or even why I am not just ignoring the topic.

And I am going to tell you exactly why.

Being raised by a former Vietnam era Marine, as my stepfather is I learned a thing or two.

Policy, procedure, and protocol come to me by natural selection due to being under his wing.

My mother divorced my father when I was six years old due to alcoholism and 4 different car accidents.

I was taught about Government, Law Enforcement, Military, I read extensively as a child as well.

It was drilled into my head that knowing what Government was up to at all times was primary.

Everything else was secondary.

Those secondary things in Ancient Rome were called bread and circuses.

Quote from : Wikipedia : Bread and Circuses

"Bread and circuses" (or bread and games) (from Latin: panem et circenses) is a metaphor for a simplistic means of appeasement.

In the case of politics, the phrase is used to describe the creation of public approval, not through exemplary or excellent public service or public policy, but through the mere satisfaction of the immediate, shallow requirements of a populace.

The phrase also implies the erosion or ignorance of civic duty amongst the concerns of the common man (l'homme moyen sensuel).

So, to me, when you ask me what sports team I like, or if I watched the latest American Idol, I might just roll my eyes at you, and wonder what a retard you are.

For those who love to complain, whine, and bitch about Law Enforcement I have to say you know nothing about how hard their jobs are, at all levels, it is one of the toughest jobs.

The divorce rate is exceedingly high due to the stresses of dealing with ungrateful citizens.

People will kick, bite, curse at, cuss out, shoot at, and try to kill these men and women.

Before I go much further I am going to make a few book recommendations for you.

The Complete Idiot's Guide to U.S. Government and Politics

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/d690823ec3bf.jpg[/atsimg]

Amazon Review :

Understanding how our government functions and the political forces that influence it is vital for all Americans.

As a comprehensive overview and history of the subject, this book is designed to help anyone interested in learning about our government and the origins of its complex inner workings, our political system, and key elements that have affected our growth as a nation- all while serving as the best supplementary reading a student can get.

The FBI Career Guide: Inside Information on Getting Chosen for and Succeeding in One of the Toughest, Most Prestigious Jobs in the World

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/f5662196ad76.jpg[/atsimg]

Amazon Review :

"In the three years following the September 11th, 2001, terrorist attacks, the Federal Bureau of Investigation hired 2,200 new Special Agents.

But that was out of more than 150,000 applicants, and you can be sure the successful candidates had not only relevant backgrounds, but also determination and a genuine desire to embark on one of the most coveted, rewarding, and challenging careers in the world.

Inside the D.E.A.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/1e4d877b53dd.jpg[/atsimg]

Amazon Review : A crime novel of intrigue, deceit and treachery.

This true story follows the twenty five year career of a Drug Enforcement Administration Special Agent from rookie on the streets of New York City to senior manager of DEA's money laundering undercover operations on three continents.

His story parallels his professional life with the growth of coc aine use in the United States and the proliferation of its trade into a multi-billion international industry.

You Can Run But You Can't Hide

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/8d1e3dae7f77.jpg[/atsimg]

Amazon Review :

"Freeze!" Duane "Dog" Chapman entertains and inspires millions on Dog the Bounty Hunter, his #1-rated show on A&E -- but there is more to his story.

From troubled beginnings and tragedy to triumph and transformation, he reveals all for the first time in this no-holds-barred memoir.

Dog spent the first twenty-three years of his life on the wrong side of the law.

In You Can Run, but You Can’t Hide, he offers an inside look at his days as a gang member; his dark years of addiction and abuse; and how serving eighteen months in prison for a murder he didn’t commit helped him recommit to his faith.

So, with that, I'm opening this puppy up, full throttle, so you had better hang on for your life.

COPS Theme Song - Bad Boys


Remember, this thread will be delving deep, and the next post I make will go into more depth.

This thread is by no means only going to be about American Law Enforcment Officers only.

However, due to my being American, I am starting it there, and will branch out more as it goes deeper.

Stop The Stalkers

Read about my fight against stalkers here, since I was six years old.

Left-Wing, Right-Wing, This Turkey, Knows How To Soar Like An Eagle

Become a member of the Bully Pulpit, so you can debate me politically, if you do not choose membership in the Bully Pulpit, you can only read, and not post replies.

[edit on 8-8-2010 by SpartanKingLeonidas]

This is a big post, and I look forward to your other parts of this rather complex subject. It is not a black and white issue as it involves fallible human beings in these roles.

I liked the video of Red Skelton and the Pledge of Allegiance. Is it any wonder his show ran for 20 years?

www.imdb.com...

I read the Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs story a few years ago and I remember thinking that the guy was a genius for putting it that way because it's true. Some people are sheep who blindly follow and think nothing bad will happen, some are wolves who prey on those sheep, and some are sheepdogs and do their best to stop the wolves from harming the sheep. Of course there will be some who don't fall into any category perfectly, and some who will change categories over the course of their life, but as an analogy it works pretty well.

One thing I've never understood, and likely never will, about people's perceptions, is how someone can take one example of abused authority and apply it to everyone else in that same position of authority. Taking a few bad cops and saying they mean all cops are bad is like taking one man who is a murderer and saying all men are murderers. It just doesn't make sense.

Humans generally are really very selfish creatures. As a species, we think of ourselves first and others second and some will do whatever they feel necessary to acquire more. More power, more money, more stuff. Just more. It should come as no surprise that a group of people will have some who take whatever power or authority they have and abuse it. It's part of human nature. Not a very pretty part, or a part we like to think about, but it exists.

reply to post by kidflash2008


Well, therein lies the rub, as the bard tells us.

You saw this as a large post.

I did not.

As far as I am concerned that was minimalistic.

And I focused mainly on American Law Enforcement.

At least with my opening post.

I will go back in history a bit to the history of Law Enforcement.

Book references, investigative techniques, good and bad Law Enforcement.

A level ground for all concerned as far as I am concerned.

But over all within the next "large post" as you put it I will examine the necessity of why we need those within the Law Enforcement community, and why the bad apples ruin the whole barrel, some times, and where I see it all heading.

I was taught at the age of 6 years old that Cops are humans too.

They make mistakes.

They are fallible.

But that they live by a higher standard than most and their job has them wearing a holstered weapon, a nightstick, handcuffs, and a utility belt with other necessities.

Yes, Red Skeleton was an awesome and inspiring man, it is too bad he's gone.

We need more human beings like him on Earth.

reply to post by Jenna


And this is exactly why we get Charles Manson.

Or even Jim Jones.

As well why we get to where people like Kim Jong-il take over countries.

Because one bad apple ruins it for all.

Rarely do we ever hear about how it will be kept from happening again.

We hear about an investigation, the slap on the wrist, and paid leave.

Or even unpaid leave while an investigation is being conducted.

Humans are the most selfish species.

Always have been.

Animals kill for necessity and through instinct.

Mankind kills because of stupidity, ignorance, and fun.

This is why I decided to do this thread on examining Law Enforcement.

In a place where civility is mandatory.

I was raised to have respect for the police.
I even liked the two officers who arrested me
years ago.They were just doing their job.
The only thing that I don't like is the overuse
of their tazers.

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas

Animals kill for necessity and through instinct.

Not always true. Cats kill for fun. Often times an animal will kill its prey and leave it to rot. Sometimes animals kill their own young. I have known some emotinally disturbed dogs that would kill anything!

Other than that, I love the thread so far!!

I want you to clarify a little. Do you think we have any sheeps as cops? Do you think cops are by and large sheep dogs? Do you think we have more wolves posing as sheepdogs or sheep? Do you think we have any wolves in plain sight that are not trying to disguise themselves at all? Do you think the combination of the three is a necessary formula to a civilized society? (i.e. Without wolves, there is no need for sheepdogs, and sheep become undefined. The wolves create the balance and cull the herd?)

On the "On Sheep"

A very good read and very true. I tend to agree with it. There is certainly evil in the world (the wolves) - to deny that is foolish.

However, most people are not evil yet they lack the tools / ability to protect themselves (the sheep).

So, people that have the tools and desire to do so must step forward as the protectors (the sheepdogs).

That makes perfect sense and I agree with all of that 100%.

As I said, it all makes sense - to deny that wolves exist or to say that sheepdogs are not needed is just nonsense.

But here is the kicker.. its is not that the sheepdog must sometimes disturb the sheep. That's fine - he (or she) wouldn't be doing a good job if he didn't.

Its this part, from the "On Sheep" article linked in your the OP

The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.

Its this bit about what should happen when a sheepdog turns into a wolf.

My honest two cents is the sheep fear that more and more of the sheepdogs that protect them are turning into wolves and that many of the rest of sheepdogs are just fine with it or are turning right along with them.

If the other sheepdogs will not protect the sheep from a sheepdog that turns bad - who will?

Yes - its often "one bad dog" among many "fine, upstanding dogs". That is no doubt true. Its also true I could easily create of page of links to nothing but sheepdogs gone bad in the past little bit.

Maybe the sheep just want the sheepdogs to do a little better job of sniffing out the wolves in their ranks - and then treating them like they would any other wolf.

Its really hard for a sheep to understand why a wolf that was pretending to be a sheepdog gets treated so much better than the other wolves.







[edit on 9-8-2010 by Frogs]

Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas
Rarely do we ever hear about how it will be kept from happening again.

We hear about an investigation, the slap on the wrist, and paid leave.

Or even unpaid leave while an investigation is being conducted.

That, I believe, is the problem. Those who abuse their authority should lose that authority, whether they are a cop, a CEO, or a congressman. If that abuse of authority is something that would land anyone else in jail, then they should be in jail too. Justice is justice, and should apply equally to everyone. When we have a bad cop getting off with a slap on the wrist and paid leave, he makes the rest of the cops he works with look bad even if they aren't.

reply to post by Jenna


Pretty much what I was trying to say - if the wolf commits a crime, the punishment should be the same, regardless of if the wolf lived in a ditch, happened to have a job as a sheepdog or was rich.

As it stands it often seems there are two sets of punishments. One for regular wolves and sheep, and another (much lighter one) for wolves that get jobs as sheepdogs or are rich.

Originally posted by mamabeth
I was raised to have respect for the police.
I even liked the two officers who arrested me
years ago.They were just doing their job.
The only thing that I don't like is the overuse
of their tazers.

I was raised as well to have respect for Law Enforcement.

But with the caveat that some are corrupt.

I was as well trained how to spot the "Dirty Cops"

And I have never been arrested.

Harrased by one "Dirty Cop" here in my hometown.

His was corruption of power.

Napoleon Complex.

He gave out bumper stickers with his speeding tickets.

I've got the (His Name Here) Blues

I will go into that story more in depth sometime.

I have posted it elsewhere if I can remember where I will post the link to the individual post, in here, as one of the examples, although the thread I posted within the original one about my fight with stalker's has part of it.

reply to post by getreadyalready


Point taken.

Cats are odd at times.

Kill a rat and leave it the door.

This is so they can show it to their master.

Animals kill their young for a few reasons.

The mother can sense it will not make it, instincts still.

A male lion will eat the cubs because they're lazy as Hell, the female hunts.

Back on topic though.

Yes, I do there are some Cop's who are "sheep", more like drones.

The definition of a "sheepdog" though all depends upon perspective.

If you have a problem with authority you might see those "sheepdogs" as "wolves", but of course this may be because of a misguided perception, it could be because of someone having a completely rebellious streak towards all authority, or they could just be a criminal.

I'm loving your replies so far.

Sociopath's can hide in plain sight.

Those are just one element of the "wolves" though.

And I do see some of those behind podium's in Washington D.C.

Do I think the balance of all three is necessary?

I do not see society as some farcical Utopia as there is no such thing.

Every Time Someone Called You A Fascist, They Might Have Been Right, Is Your Ideology Fascist?

Ever called a Police Officer a Fascist Pig?

I have not.

But I told the one I mentioned to mamabeth to go screw himself (not the word).

And I was 12/13 years old.

Then I said sir.

In nature, sure the wolves are there to cull the herds, speaking of animals.

In society I do not see that balance as necessary.

Before you answer the question about the Fascist Pig read that thread.

Please.

It is not something as simple as being rebellious to authority.

I have no problem with Government, specifically, I have a problem with corruption, within Government, and although the two walk hand in hand, it is not wholly at all times that I see this corruption within Government.

As I said before this thread will be a balanced effort on my part.

Civilized society is not as civilized as one would think at times.

There are still rampant and ignorant barbarians running amok within it.

Some are at the basic levels of society, the sheeple, some are sheepdogs, some are the wolves, and some are behind podium's saber-rattling.

reply to post by Frogs


Of course.

The world is full of evil.

Evil men, evil women, evil actions of both.

Just as it is full of good.

Good men, good women, good actions of both.

This is a complex essence of the fabric of society.

Going to feudal Japan where the Samurai was the "Law Enforcement", they were allowed, at will even, to behead people.

Just because their honr was sleighted.

Was this a good or evil action?

Guess that depends on which side of the sword you were.

Jump ahead the modern day and people decry Law Enforcement as sadistic.

For tazing some idiot.

Has society gotten more violent or more stupid and unforgiving?

Or perhaps is it that society often cannot keep up with the ever present changes?

As for your question about "sheepdog"'s turning into the "wolf", this is why Internal Affairs is supposed to come in and investigate.

Quote from : Internal Affairs (Law Enforcement)

The internal affairs (United States terminology) division of a law enforcement agency investigates incidents and plausible suspicions of lawbreaking and professional misconduct attributed to officers on the force.

In different systems, internal affairs can go by another name such as "professional standards," "inspectorate general", Office of Professional Responsibility or similar.

Do they always do their job's to the best of their ability?

Well that would need statistics that I am sure they would not release.

I might do a little digging and see if I can find some links for those statistics.

Here's the Department of Justice statics page :

Bureau of Justice : Office of Justice Programs

I will look into a bit more as I go into more depth.

This is just a reply to you.

I will concentrate on statistics and more in depth information in my posts, the one which are not specifically a reply, directly to someone.

That way I am being fair to the entire thread.

And I do not tilt the thread either pro or con towards Law Enforcement.

If I can help it.

[edit on 9-8-2010 by SpartanKingLeonidas]

Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas


Has society gotten more violent or more stupid and unforgiving?

Can I pick "both"?

If you are looking for stat's there are these I'm going to link below. Be interesting to hear your take on them..

Injustice Everywhere - 2009 Police Misconduct Stats

Injustice Everywhere - First 1/2 2010 Police Misconduct Stats

Originally posted by Jenna
That, I believe, is the problem. Those who abuse their authority should lose that authority, whether they are a cop, a CEO, or a congressman. If that abuse of authority is something that would land anyone else in jail, then they should be in jail too. Justice is justice, and should apply equally to everyone. When we have a bad cop getting off with a slap on the wrist and paid leave, he makes the rest of the cops he works with look bad even if they aren't.

Agreed.

More often than not they are not relieved of authority.

Some strings get pulled, a favor here, a wink and nudge there.

The problem comes with so many complexities though.

Between a Public Defender for the poor "criminal".

To the all you can get away with lawyer because someone is filthy rich.

Or because of political connections.

How do we force that to change though?

Surely the rich lawyers want rich clients without which they can get richer?

And to be defended by a Public Defender is a joke.

When it comes to this travesty of justice this means a lack of money to defend someone who might merely be suspect through circumstantial evidence.

At best.

Do not get me started on the Blue Wall either.

Quote from : Wikipedia : Blue Wall

The Blue Code of Silence (or Blue Wall of Silence) is a supposed unwritten rule among police officers in the United States not to report on another colleague's errors, misconducts or crimes.

If questioned about an incident of misconduct involving another officer (e.g. during the course of an official inquiry), if following the Blue Code of Silence, it would be standard procedure to claim ignorance.

For some reason the name of Serpico comes to mind.

Serpico Trailer

Quote from : Wikipedia : Frank Serpico

Francesco Vincent Serpico (born April 14, 1936) is an American retired New York City Police Department (NYPD) officer who is most famous for testifying against police corruption in 1971.

The majority of Serpico's fame came after the release of the 1973 film, Serpico, which starred Al Pacino in the lead role.

So does Elliot Ness.

Quote from : Wikipedia : Elliot Ness

Eliot Ness (April 19, 1903 – May 16, 1957) was an American Prohibition agent, famous for his efforts to enforce Prohibition in Chicago, Illinois, the leader of a legendary team of law enforcement agents nicknamed The Untouchables.

And I am not a drinker but I did not agree with Prohibition.

I was not alive during it, thank God, but the law is the law.

What good did Prohibition really do for mankind?

Not one iota if you ask me.

Ignore the reponsibility for one's actions and outlaw something.

That to me is ignorant, stupid, and bordering on insane.

Yes, alcohol is a drug, intoxication while driving is stupid.

This however was not why Prohibition started.

Quote from : Wikipedia : Prohibition : History

In the early twentieth century, much of the impetus for the prohibition movement in the Nordic countries and North America came from Protestant wariness of alcohol.

Yes, I realize Wikipedia is not necessarily the best resource, but I have no books on Prohibition, I am running off of my memory of my interest in it.

It was something that fascinated me as I grew up.

I thought it was insane to mandate by law something like alcohol.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/df0abaf0f929.jpg[/atsimg]

A prescription for alcohol?

Reminiscent of history repeating itself correct?

And no I am not a supporter of decriminaliztion of marijuana.

I say go after the source or forget about it.

Originally posted by Frogs
Can I pick "both"?

If you are looking for stat's there are these I'm going to link below. Be interesting to hear your take on them..

Injustice Everywhere - 2009 Police Misconduct Stats

Injustice Everywhere - First 1/2 2010 Police Misconduct Stats

You can pick anything you want.

I look for intent, immediately, this is why I am an attention to detail person.

What is your intent?

There is a very important reason I ask and it is because of what I noticed immediately about that website as I clicked on them, a few key details.

My first impression was the title of the website Injustice Everywhere.

Secondly I went immediately to the bottom and saw it was a Wordpress website.

Why is that important?

Wordpress is a blog.

No, I do not suspect you, but the website is obviously built, with an agenda.

Now, before I go on, I will ask a question of you, other than intent.

Do you believe Law Enforcement tells us of all the bad things that happen?

My answer to that is emphatically no.

Logic dictates certain things, actions, and ramifications will be hidden.

This is after all a political animal, Law Enforcement.

Image is everything.

Remember, I am walking a fine line, between pro and con.

I see problems on both sides of the fence.

Law Enforcement can do better but so can society.

This the very specific reason why I posted this thread in the hardest forum area, with extremely tight restrictions, tighter than the rest of ATS.

My intent was to keep it civil no matter what.

That way all people can discuss civilly a complex issue.

Without trolls, drive-by posting, or snide commentary towards Law Enforcement.

[edit on 9-8-2010 by SpartanKingLeonidas]

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas


I am sorry. I cannot let this pass. Having read your post the only problem I have with what you say is that Law Enforcement is in combat every day. That, in and of itself, is a joke for most LEO's. They would like you to believe that as a regular citizen but if you are their friend they will tell you the truth. Most LEO's, with their armor, arsenal of weapons, and immediate back up, rarely have reason to need any of that stuff. Probably one of the reasons so many use it unnecessarily. Being in law enforcement is less dangerous than being a clerk for a 7/11 and the clerk is not allowed to be armed.

What really bothers me is what you did not say. You see, according to your story I am a sheepdog but I am not in law enforcement. I have no badge, no uniform, no weapon, no taser, no handcuffs, no baton or pepper spray. I do not have back up on call. I realize you will probably scuff but mine has been a most amazing and violent life far from what any would call normal. Unless of course you grew up like me. So I have seen things from a different perspective than the one put out for consumption of the general public.

Here is the problem. The sheepdogs can not tell a sheepdog from a wolf unless it is wearing a uniform. Only those in uniforms are sheepdogs, if in uniform it IS a sheepdog and can not be a wolf, if no uniform and it FIGHTS BACK it is a WOLF and should be killed even if those it was fighting was wolves. Simple deal. Look up Suzzanna's Law of 2002 which requires the DOJ to report to Congress every year on the number of missing people 21 an younger, than find out WHY the DOJ does not do what is required by law. I will grant you most LEO's are not aware they are breaking federal law but what the hell ignorance is no excuse for breaking the law they will tell you. Unless it is them. You see it is generally believed that every single one of us breaks on average three felony federal laws a day including LEO's.

I am sorry if I am rambling a little but consider this. A uniform does not make someone a sheepdog or prevent them from being a wolf. What determines what they are is their actions. When the sheepdogs say "Heh, if we take a defenseless lamb and leave it out as a trap we can get a lot more wolves!" and it does not matter to them whether the lamb or the lambs parents will say no, after all only sheepdogs and wolves have teeth right? Of course they won't use their own puppys will they? Well some of us old sheep still have big long sharp teeth and the sheepdogs better realize it.

Sheepdogs do not have the right to destroy any sheep's family for their operation. I don't give a damm what acronym they use. DEA, FBI, ICE, Sheriff, State, whatever. Their PROMOTION based upon using innocent young kids being prayed on by their confidential informants or undercover officers to provide convincing cover is not acceptable no matter whose kids they wish to use. No excuses, no reasons are acceptable. Period.

The problem is the higher up sheepdogs think it is ok and the lower sheepdogs will not question, they do as they are told or they lose their jobs. It is far easier to die in the line of duty than go home and tell your wife you were fired yet that also is part of the job of defending the sheep.

Finally remember this. Your power, your authority comes from the sheep. If the sheep want to they can run right over the sheepdogs and leave them as a smear on the ground. Numbers DO count! Depend on actions not the law. According to THE LAW all of us, LEO's included, are all FELONS. We just have not been charged yet.

Yep. Great thread, SKL. Looking forward to the rest.

"The degree to which you move up that continuum, away from sheephood and denial, is the degree to which you and your loved ones will survive, physically and psychologically, at your moment of truth."

Originally posted by Jerk_Idiot

I am sorry. I cannot let this pass. Having read your post the only problem I have with what you say is that Law Enforcement is in combat every day. That, in and of itself, is a joke for most LEO's.

Oh...and this opinion on combat? I disagree. They're out there every day, on the line. Sure there might be some areas where they're not all that busy, but they always have to be ready, physically and psychologically. There's no going halfway.

[Edited to clear up misfire.]


[edit on 8/9/2010 by ~Lucidity]

Originally posted by Jerk_Idiot
reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas

 

I am sorry. I cannot let this pass. Having read your post the only problem I have with what you say is that Law Enforcement is in combat every day. That, in and of itself, is a joke for most LEO's. They would like you to believe that as a regular citizen but if you are their friend they will tell you the truth. Most LEO's, with their armor, arsenal of weapons, and immediate back up, rarely have reason to need any of that stuff. Probably one of the reasons so many use it unnecessarily. Being in law enforcement is less dangerous than being a clerk for a 7/11 and the clerk is not allowed to be armed.

You have your opinion and you're entitled to share it.

Are you saying Police Officer's made me think the way I do?

Because that simply is not true.

That is because of knowledge, historically, as well as all of my studies.

Less dangerous than a 7/11 clerk without being armed?

Hardly.

Originally posted by Jerk_Idiot
What really bothers me is what you did not say. You see, according to your story I am a sheepdog but I am not in law enforcement. I have no badge, no uniform, no weapon, no taser, no handcuffs, no baton or pepper spray. I do not have back up on call. I realize you will probably scuff but mine has been a most amazing and violent life far from what any would call normal. Unless of course you grew up like me. So I have seen things from a different perspective than the one put out for consumption of the general public.

I am not scoffing.

My life has had violence within it.

Maybe not as much as you maybe more so.

Who knows.

I learned how to turn the Art of War into the Art of Peace.

It is my hope you can find a balance.

I found mine.

Originally posted by Jerk_Idiot
Here is the problem. The sheepdogs can not tell a sheepdog from a wolf unless it is wearing a uniform. Only those in uniforms are sheepdogs, if in uniform it IS a sheepdog and can not be a wolf, if no uniform and it FIGHTS BACK it is a WOLF and should be killed even if those it was fighting was wolves. Simple deal. Look up Suzzanna's Law of 2002 which requires the DOJ to report to Congress every year on the number of missing people 21 an younger, than find out WHY the DOJ does not do what is required by law. I will grant you most LEO's are not aware they are breaking federal law but what the hell ignorance is no excuse for breaking the law they will tell you. Unless it is them. You see it is generally believed that every single one of us breaks on average three felony federal laws a day including LEO's.

You do understand the use of a metaphor correct?

Are there good people out there who might qualify as "sheepdogs"?

Sure, you're talking to one, and I could be replying to one right now.

Just as their are those who seem as sheepdogs but are really wolves.

That is not an insult but I do not know you at all so I will remain neutral.

And give you a chance to tell your story.

Just remember to stay on topic and within the terms and conditions.

Originally posted by Jerk_Idiot
I am sorry if I am rambling a little but consider this. A uniform does not make someone a sheepdog or prevent them from being a wolf. What determines what they are is their actions. When the sheepdogs say "Heh, if we take a defenseless lamb and leave it out as a trap we can get a lot more wolves!" and it does not matter to them whether the lamb or the lambs parents will say no, after all only sheepdogs and wolves have teeth right? Of course they won't use their own puppys will they? Well some of us old sheep still have big long sharp teeth and the sheepdogs better realize it.

I can see a lot of pain within that comment there as well as the rest.

Of course, baiting a wolftrap, with a lamb is cruel, to say the least.

But so is a wolftrap.

The intent is to catch and or kill a wolf.

Whether metaphorically, literally, naturally, or society-wise for a predator.

Originally posted by Jerk_Idiot
Sheepdogs do not have the right to destroy any sheep's family for their operation. I don't give a damm what acronym they use. DEA, FBI, ICE, Sheriff, State, whatever. Their PROMOTION based upon using innocent young kids being prayed on by their confidential informants or undercover officers to provide convincing cover is not acceptable no matter whose kids they wish to use. No excuses, no reasons are acceptable. Period.

Sounds like something I agree with wholeheartedly.

So far.

And Undercover work is a complex topic.

I personally do not agree with Agent Provocateurs in any way, shape, or form.

But then again they are the first thing I look for in all elements.

Quote from : Wikipedia : Agent Provocateur

Traditionally, an agent provocateur (plural: agents provocateurs, French for "inciting agent(s)") is a person employed by the police or other entity to act undercover to entice or provoke another person to commit an illegal act.

More generally, the term may refer to a person or group that seeks to discredit or harm another by provoking them to commit a wrong or rash action.

I assure you that definition snippet is there for everyone who might not know it.

Not you or I.

I can tell you have a complex story.

Just be patient if my timing to reply is not immediate.

Originally posted by Jerk_Idiot
The problem is the higher up sheepdogs think it is ok and the lower sheepdogs will not question, they do as they are told or they lose their jobs. It is far easier to die in the line of duty than go home and tell your wife you were fired yet that also is part of the job of defending the sheep.

Of course.

One of the many reasons I never became a Law Enforcement Officer.

That and all the paperwork.

And yes I seriously considered it at one time.

I even took some classes towards Business Administration/Criminal Justice Administration.

In the end I felt I could make more money outside of Law Enforcement.

As well as do much more good.

Originally posted by Jerk_Idiot
Finally remember this. Your power, your authority comes from the sheep. If the sheep want to they can run right over the sheepdogs and leave them as a smear on the ground. Numbers DO count! Depend on actions not the law. According to THE LAW all of us, LEO's included, are all FELONS. We just have not been charged yet.

I do not agree with your comment about all of us being felons.

Of course the sheep can run over the sheepdogs.

Just as much as the wolves can be hiding in sheep's clothing.

Originally posted by ~Lucidity
Yep. Great thread, SKL. Looking forward to the rest.

"The degree to which you move up that continuum, away from sheephood and denial, is the degree to which you and your loved ones will survive, physically and psychologically, at your moment of truth."

Oh...and that opinion on combat? I disagree. They're out there every day, on the line. Sure there might be some areas where they're not all that busy, but they always have to be ready.

No problem.

I can understand your disagreement about combat.

But do not forget there are lulls in all forms of "combat".

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/a3a322dd201b.jpg[/atsimg]

Morale and humor are necessary just as much as lulls and downtime.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/87ee9c041710.jpg[/atsimg]

I know, semantics, to a degree, but I think you get the point.

I worked as a Security Officer in a hospital for a while, almost two years.

Would You Accept Illegal Power If It Was Offered To You?

There were days when we were hopping all day long.

There were days where we did nothing at all.

There were times when I wished for both.

While a Security Officer is not a Law Enforcement Officer it is a good enough analogy.

We enforced policy, procedure, and protocol.

[edit on 9-8-2010 by SpartanKingLeonidas]