The ATS UFO Section is lacking progress!

Well said sir!

I Agree 100% with this thread and I'm glad someone has stepped up to the plate. The problem is that this forum is on this site, This is a skeptic website run by a guy who calls himself "Skeptic Overlord" So of course there is going to be much more skepticism going on.....Don't get me wrong being skeptic is great when it comes to general conspiracies such as 911, but Alien and UFO's is a subject that is seriously difficult to swallow for the average joe.

PROJECT CAMELOT is the best site I have found to get my information on the subject because they allow people to have a say and not to be ridiculed by ignorance. For someone new to camelot I recommend John Lear Tells All, Bob Dean bringing the light and my favourite Duncan O Finoien.

I don't tell too many people that I research UFO's because I know what they will say "Its all Bull****" something like that so I usually keep to myself. I come here for general conspiracies and camelot for UFO's that solve's the problem.

reply to post by greeneyedleo


Thanks for the reply, but are you sure you read my post properly?

Your response make perfect sense, and is a completely true representation of the current state of play as regards ATS.

I've no problem with much of what you say, except i would make the following observations:

There is absolutely no need for another UFO forum.

I disagree.

And so do others obviously, as my post was directed at a member expressing dissatisfaction with what he sees as a stagnation of sorts currently lingering on the UFO forum. It was mentioned that the primary reason for this stagnation, was the constant bickering among the 'pro and anti' viewpoints. And other closely associated obstacles to making progress in the forum, progress from BOTH sets of viewpoints.

This is precisely the reason i made my post suggesting TWO additional forums, one for EACH particular point of view, and to RETAIN (keep) the existing UFO forum that is open to any and all points of view. (as the UFO forum is now)

Any topic on ATS is open to debate. Any topic. There will always be two sides to a topic and even some fence sitters. And we welcome the debate and discussion of all sides on every thred.

Yes, i wouldn't have it any other way. If it were so, i wouldn't have become a member here.

Don't misunderstand me, i am in no way advocating taking away anything from anyone. I certainly wouldn't entertain gagging or stifling a point of view, simply because i didn't happen to agree with it! Read some of my posts, you'll see that's not what i'm about.

I am in fact proposing these two, additional forums, while keeping the common UFO forum which will in fact TREBLE the opportunity to put across ideas. Or put another way, 300% more sharing of information or general feelings on an particular story or any other UFO/ET related topic.

Surely you see the greater, not lesser opportunity to express oneself?

Having a forum for only ONE side does not produce community discussion and debate.

Of course having only one side of the debate is not a debate! I completely agree, that's why i'm proposing three, not one.

You're not seeing the whole picture, having a pro and having an anti forum is giving folks with polar viewpoints an equal say and equal access to express themselves. NO ONE would be gagged.

With these two new forums, real sharing of ideas and worthwhile collaborations will take place, in BOTH forums.

These collaborations and ideas, together with the new insights and progressive thinking that would undoubtedly be formed, can then be taken to the common (existing) UFO forum, where anyone and everyone will participate in a rejuvenated and energized debate, regardless of where your point of view rests regarding the UFO issue.

I make no bones about it when i say that i believe strongly that the UFO/ET issue and all of it's myriad profound implications for our species and our world in general, is the single biggest and most important issue of our time.

This is a species wide issue. Every human being on this planet, every creature possibly, would be effected in one respect or another should disclosure happen. It's a planet paradigm affecting issue.

As such a stagnant, unproductive and bitter forum, where constant bickering is the norm, regardless of whether it's anti types ranting No! no! no!, or the pro types ranting Yes! yes! yes!, is never going to go anywhere, except downwards. If there has to be arguing, at least let's have some, well thought out, collaborated and agreed up, constructive argument..which is what the common forum will get, if like minded viewpoints are allowed to flourish in a conducive setting with members who agree and wish to collaborate to improve a theory, or go over some ideas.

Again, this facility will be available to BOTH sets of members with polar views on the subject. Definitely NOT available to one as you seemed to say in your reply.

Is that any clearer? If not, i'm sincerely happy to clarify any point i've mentioned.

reply to post by spikey



The A&U forum provides exactly what you are proposing - allowing everyone to voice their opinion and challenge anything posted.

Creating additional forums to cater to one side will solve nothing. The alleged bickering and arguing you complain about will happen in those forums too.

One forum is enough.

stagnation of sorts currently lingering on the UFO forum

Dont like the direction or the content, bring forth what you want to see.
You and others are more than welcome to create a thread with some outstanding research and presentations of the subject.


[edit on August 7th 2010 by greeneyedleo]

reply to post by spikey


Spikey.....

I propose the site owners establish a dedicated PRO UFO/ET forum, for exclusive comment and threads/posts for 'PRO' (or for) UFO topics ONLY. AND, you cannot have the Yin without the Yang, so along with the creation of the PRO forum, there should ALSO be the 'ANTI' (or against) UFO forum.

I agree with greeneyedleo......

Discussion & debate would be curtailed, which would be a very big backwards step for ATS.

Kind regards
Maybe...maybe not

Originally posted by Copernicus
reply to post by Maybe...maybe not

 

As I understand it, you think the object in the videos could possibly be alien ships (even though you say "they stand up to scrutiny" so my interpretation of that could be false). If you think there is a possibility that they are, why are you not investigating further?

Copernicus…..

As I understand it, you think the object in the videos could possibly be alien ships

I have stated that I don’t know what the object is, so by definition I am open to that possibility.

even though you say "they stand up to scrutiny"

I ”say they stand up to scrutiny” because if you review the thread in detail, you’ll see we cannot match the object with a prosaic cause.

so my interpretation of that could be false.

Your ”interpretation of that” appears to be correct.

If you think there is a possibility that they are, why are you not investigating further?

Please advise your recommendations in that regard.

Kind regards
Maybe…maybe not

reply to post by greeneyedleo


While i welcome your reply and appreciate you taking the trouble to post, judging by what you've written, i feel that you either cannot or will not understand what i'm saying to you, i'm going with the latter, because you're obviously not stupid.

I'm curious as to why you appear to be deliberately ignoring or apparently misunderstanding what i say..my intent and reasoning on this issue, is clearly obvious and simple to comprehend.

My original reason to reply to Copernicus' post, was in response to his grievance at the immobility of opposing voices, a stalemate of incessant yes's and no's. Which i believe the addition of two extra forums, as has been described, would alleviate.

The only reason for not creating the extra forums would be one of space..cost of addition bandwidth or something like that.

IMO, one forum is not enough if you wish to avoid a forum stagnating.

Many extremely interesting threads have been posted to the UFO forum over the years, but despite being informative, attention grabbing and so on, got lost in the midst of what's being complained about, the fog of obfuscation.

Slightly frivolous remarks about outstanding presentations aside, there could be an image posted of a mile wide glowing neon craft, hovering just above the empire state building, and it wouldn't prevent the fog descending on the thread to frustrate the issues.

If that is the intent, then it seems to be working.

Debate is being suffocated by repetitive impasse, the 'outstandingly great research and presentation' is still being occasionally posted..but i'd imagine a whole lot of people couldn't be bothered or motivated to put the work in to a glittering thread just to see it go nowhere, mired down in the same circular arguments.

It's an idea and a point of view directed as a response to another member, not a formal request for action. I'll not try to convince you of the merit of the idea further, you've made your position clear.

Thank you.

reply to post by MaxBlack


You put it in a far better form than I ever could have done, but let me say that I agree 100% with your post. I would have used what you wrote in my original post if given the chance.

This section has a huge problem, weather the ATS staff or posters here admit it or not.

And I will check out your link and the information about Presidential Executive Order #13546 (signed July 2, published July 8, 2010). Very interesting, thank you.



[edit on 7-8-2010 by Copernicus]

Originally posted by Turiddu
If Ufology is to advance as a legitimate field then it needs to be held to the same rigorous standards as other fields.

Other fields are not involved in a cover-up, therefore there cannot be held to the same rigorous standards as other fields. You will make zero progress that way. Scientific evidence is classified and hidden away in secret projects.

There is plenty of evidence for the actual cover-up in the form of previously classified top secret documents and a huge array of military witnesses. If you are unaware of this, you have not even started looking into the field of Ufology.



[edit on 7-8-2010 by Copernicus]

reply to post by Maybe...maybe not

Discussion & debate would be curtailed, which would be a very big backwards step for ATS.

Hi MMN,
Seriously..are you guys skimming through my posts? I know i can waffle a bit, but i get to the point eventually!

How can you not have read that i said time after time that the existing forum would remain as is?
How can adding two more forums, dedicated to generating collaboration to refine talking points, or points of detail about a case, be curtailing anything?

The discussion and debate would still take place in the current forum as it always has done, only hopefully with more constructive and interesting debates because the pro's and con's would have been shared and discussed in the dedicated forums earlier.

In my view it would kick start quality debate, but hey, this is only an opinion as to what i think would improve clarity on an import issue in response to a post.

I value your opinions, but i don't think we're going to agree, so i'll leave it there.

Cheers.

reply to post by spikey


I actually thought about presenting the idea of having two forums when I wrote my original post, but after a few minutes of thinking about it, I dropped the idea. I think there is no way ATS can or want to moderate things so decent progress can be made here.

Dont get me wrong, I think ATS is great in many ways. This is basically the only thing I think is obviously a problem. That people cannot progress in their knowledge here on ATS when it comes to UFO's.

Of course, that is not a problem if you are a skeptic or a non-believer. All they will see here is blurry pictures that can easily be debunked for easy stars and points. Great for them.



[edit on 7-8-2010 by Copernicus]

reply to post by spikey


Spikey.....

I didn't "skim read" your post.

I still believe your idea would dislocate salient discussion, analysis & debate.

Kind regards
Maybe...maybe not

Originally posted by Wills
Well said sir!

I Agree 100% with this thread and I'm glad someone has stepped up to the plate.

Nice with some support, thank you.

But this is largely a last attempt to bring some attention to this. If it becomes ignored like I suspect it will, I will just leave this section alone and not bother posting what I come across in this section anymore.

It seems that in particular, one is expected to be able to provide scientific evidence to discuss aliens and UFO's here, or become a punch bag for the skeptics and non-believers. If thats not a crazy request for a field that is involved in a cover-up.... well....

[edit on 7-8-2010 by Copernicus]

reply to post by Copernicus


Where is the evidence of this conspiracy? Where are the documents? Where are the photos and the videos? Where are the real witnesses? What do you have to support these claims?

MJ12 Documents = Proven Hoax
Philip J Corso = Proven Hoax
Bob Lazar = Proven Hoax

Read about Mordechai Vanunu. If ANY of these supposed witnesses to the government conspiracy had been telling the truth the FBI would have been at their door so quick their heads would have been spinning. We would be reading about "Free ______!" campaigns to get them out of prison and they would be talked about on all the major news outlets.

The fact that none of these claimed whistle-blowers are sitting in Federal prison suggests that the government doesn't care about them. Why? Because they are making it all up.

Originally posted by Turiddu
The fact that none of these claimed whistle-blowers are sitting in Federal prison suggests that the government doesn't care about them. Why? Because they are making it all up.

Thanks for your opinion. Its very movie-like.



[edit on 7-8-2010 by Copernicus]

If you had any evidence I'd love to take a look at it. But given your reply I'm guessing you have none.

Show me evidence that is not a hoax or fraud, show me something that can't be explained as something mundane.

reply to post by Copernicus


Copernicus.....

I will just leave this section alone and not bother posting what I come across in this section anymore.

It seems to me you are taking the seemingly "easy way out" because you cannot or will not endure conflicting discussion & debate.

However, that is exactly what you need to move this area forward.

As an example.....

I run a large, successful business. It is my policy to employ intelligent, qualified & experienced managers & analysts who will challenge my ideas & maintain a culture & environment in which they can comfortably do so. As much as that can sometimes seem to "ruin my day a little" when something is challenged, in the end it is a huge positive for the business.

I see the same principle needing to be applied in this forum.

Kind regards
Maybe...maybe not

Originally posted by Copernicus

It seems that in particular, one is expected to be able to provide scientific evidence to discuss aliens and UFO's here, or become a punch bag for the skeptics and non-believers. If thats not a crazy request for a field that is involved in a cover-up.... well....

That's the unfortunate truth. Everyone here has seen pictures and video of amorphous blobs or lights in the sky. We know that these things do no justice in answering any real questions, so we're very keen on getting real scientific evidence.

What good would we be doing if we all just sat around and clapped each other on the back for posting yet another unidentifiable picture on the site? How does that further any knowledge in the UFO and aliens phenomenon?

[edit on 8/7/2010 by EsSeeEye]

Originally posted by Maybe...maybe not
reply to post by Copernicus

 

Copernicus.....

I will just leave this section alone and not bother posting what I come across in this section anymore.

It seems to me you are taking the seemingly "easy way out" because you cannot or will not endure conflicting discussion & debate.

Yes, because I am simply not interested in convincing skeptics. Personally. I want to spend my time adding to my knowledge about this instead.

Perhaps someone else will come along and try to convince you guys but with the current state of things, I dont think he will last very long.



[edit on 7-8-2010 by Copernicus]

reply to post by EsSeeEye


I very much agree with that. Blurry pictures are useless and might as well be thrown into Skunk Works right away. They dont do anyone any good. To me, they are not evidence of anything, so that is actually one of the things I share with the skeptics and non-believers.

No picture or movie can be proven to be a alien ship. Ever. The best you can hope for is that it looks "likely", but using the skeptics razor, you end up with it being something else since its more probable. Hence, useless. Probability wins.



[edit on 7-8-2010 by Copernicus]

reply to post by Copernicus


Copernicus.....

Yes, because I am simply not interested in convincing skeptics. Personally.

It's not about "convincing".....

It's about discussing & analysing & debating.

Kind regards
Maybe...maybe not