Think they stopped crushing Electric cars back in the 90's? Think again.

reply to post by Arbitrageur


You are also forgetting that if they continued to evolve the technology, it may stay the same mpg wise or break through to higher levels while getting rid of the "bug on a semi bumper" effect.

Great technologies improve by non stop tinkering, not sitting stilll....

Henry ford had built cars that ran on soybean oil and even body panels that were stronger the metal at the time also before it was sent to rot in the dust bin of history

S+F , makes you wonder that if students can come out with this tec ,what do highly inteligent ,older ,well established and well funded research teams in big companies have tucked away

reply to post by D.E.M.


One person has made the jump to the electric bike with a bit
of a kick, it can do high speed with ZERO aerodynamics....

I can be hot swapped with drill battery packs.

It tops out at about 70 mph with just this hack design.

Add some parts that are more sturdy and it could get close to 90 mph.

www.youtube.com...

Pretty nice, some of the aerodynamics added this thing will fly.





[edit on 22-6-2010 by Ex_MislTech]

Very interesting post, and topic to think about. 470mpg is pretty amazing.

Reading through the thread about suppressing the technology I was surprised to see the site with pictures of the contest entries, and even a DVD that's available for purchase

www.craigvetter.com...


I couldn't believe that the same fairing/aerodynamic shell that obtained 470mpg is actually available for purchase $1312

www.craigvetter.com...

Engine tweaks would definitely be required to get 100s of mpg but I would think the aerodynamics are the biggest piece to the puzzle?

I also question how practical a bike would be with a big fairing like that for daily use. They say to use a small single cylinder engine 125-200cc 4 stroke and gear it very tall so it's not going to be a powerhouse.

reply to post by warpboost


Hahahaha, I feel sheepish right now for sure. Didn't notice at all that the fairing was actually for sale on the same site.

Shame on me for not fully exploring my sources.

Originally posted by warpboost
www.craigvetter.com...

Engine tweaks would definitely be required to get 100s of mpg but I would think the aerodynamics are the biggest piece to the puzzle?

I also question how practical a bike would be with a big fairing like that for daily use. They say to use a small single cylinder engine 125-200cc 4 stroke and gear it very tall so it's not going to be a powerhouse.

Thanks for that, that answers a lot of my questions about it, and it looks like primarily aerodynamics abut also some engine tweaks and other secrets that Vetter says on that link he will write a book about:

The contestants have always been a little reluctant to reveal their secrets. You or I might not be able to get 400 mpg. But, we ought to be able to get better than 43. The above chart presents a good, basic beginning. What secrets did they have? I have interviewed each winner and will offer this info in a book. The world needs this information

Originally posted by D.E.M.
Anyone who thinks the Car Companies and the Oil Companies do not have a buddy system going on has to be off their rocker.

Originally posted by D.E.M.
Hahahaha, I feel sheepish right now for sure. Didn't notice at all that the fairing was actually for sale on the same site.

Shame on me for not fully exploring my sources.

Well, since this fairing seems to be readily available, so much for the big oil conspiracy, right?

I don't doubt that big oil wants to make big profits, but what I've never seen is how Honda would be tied into that.

So maybe you can enlighten me about how that works instead of just saying I'm off my rocker.

The opening post may have been a crowd warmer to open up the subject matter of suppressed technology but that particular example involves no high science and is not a good example.

477 mpg may seem astonishing especially when compared to your average family car but what we are dealing with here is a very small single cylinder engine with modifications that were designed with one thing in mind mpg.

These modifications have no place in the real world because they do not to have meet the requirements of safety, longevity and comfort.

Streamlining alone has a significant effect on mpg as can be illustrated by an extract from an article about one of the previous winners of this event :

After exhaustive testing with engine and gearing ratios they were able to reach a 170 mpg economy figure. On went the streamlined bodywork and the mileage shot up to a reported 315 mpg

Link

Gaining the extra mpg was down to extreme measures as Matsu says himself any bearing that was intended to be lubricated by grease was lubed with very thin oil, ok for 500 miles but not for thousands as in a normal road vehicle.

High gear ratios are all well and good in competition but you would find it hard to live with every day.

Soft light valve springs are good for economy but woe betide you if you missed a gear and over revved the engine because the valves would either touch each other or the piston either way resulting in a wrecked engine.

High tyre pressures mean lower rolling resistance but smaller contact area therefore braking efficiency and traction are impared especially in wet conditions.

Basically there are no surprises here and no hidden technology the machine like it's competitors was a one race wonder that could easily be duplicated or bettered today.

This does not mean to say there is not the possibility of buried patents or suppressed technology, I believe there are but this is not one of them.

Still got my 1984 Honda CRX that gets 50 -55 mpg on a non electronic controlled carburetor.. In 1984 they could make a car that beats the hybrids of today... Honda had the nack .. and then lost it .. Sad..

Originally posted by E-ville
Still got my 1984 Honda CRX that gets 50 -55 mpg on a non electronic controlled carburetor.. In 1984 they could make a car that beats the hybrids of today... Honda had the nack .. and then lost it .. Sad..

Sorry- they didn't "lose" it. $$$$$ outweighted it. Like ALL of the Multinationalmegacorps, they care for ONE THING- the bottom line. The human race, comes in - not on the list! I need NOT reming anyone, of the continuing, unending, unfolding ecological disaster, in the Gulf, right now.

The $20 Billion, that barry & co., illegally extorted from them, will not cover a fraction of a percent of the REAL damage. (I'm NOT going-soft, on BP- the Board of Directors, should all be hung). With a million(?) gallons, of nasty, poisonous goo, AND the toxic gasses, constantly flowing-out, with NO END in sight, will damage the Planet, for decades? Centuries? Millennia?

The true answer, is to BUILD IT YOURSELF. A VERY economical SINGLE-SEATER, should be relatively easy. Yes- you WILL need some skills! Yes- you WILL need to be able to maintain it, yourself! No- it will NOT be as safe, as even a compact car. But- it WILL be cheap to drive! You will look silly as heck, but- if you have the strength of your convictions, go for it!
Me? I feel MUCH safer, driving my 1984 American General M813, weighing-in at a safe 23,000lbs! Seated six feet above the pavement, surrounded by 1/4" of plate steel, I can haul up to 20,000lbs of cargo, in the bed! Or, 10,000lbs, OFF-ROAD! 10-WheelDrive, is SWEET! (Parking is a bihatch!)

The problem of disclosure of "Free Energy"
and/or "400 MPG Vehicles" WILL NOT GO AWAY
until SOMEONE GIVES THE INFORMATION AWAY FOR FREE!!!!!

Because MOST people are greedy and money-grubbing
or are corporate shills beholden to "The Man", they will
NOT do what is RIGHT and NECESSARY in order to
bring about a revolution in daily living!

My challenge to all those who SAY they HAVE something
in their lab or garage.......is for them to:

Give it all AWAY FREE -- OPEN SOURCE IT -- GRATIS !!!

ONLY THEN will we have a just world where
all those who want free energy will get it
and be able to have their cake too!

Changing the subject from electric cars to
"Free Energy", I can tell you that the 2nd rule
of Thermodynamics still applies...and you can't
get something for nothing when it comes to
POWER, ENERGY or ELECTRICITY !!!!!

Energy CAN be transformed. It is latent ALL around us!
It just needs to be HARNESSED and there are a NUMBER
of inventions that CAN do that and they are NOT supressed.
It's just that NO ONE is, as of yet, open enough to just
GIVE IT AWAY in terms of display, testing and disclosing
working models, plans, patents, copyrights, designs, etc.

There is ONE company I know of that has a unique idea of using
Van Der Waals forces to create a steady stream of moving
electrons within micro-devices that I THINK would be a VIABLE
and FEASIBLE method to have a near-enough version that
I call "Almost Free Energy" that it could power cars, boats,
planes, houses, phones and computers nearly forever!

And to put my money where my MOUTH IS, I've previously
disclosed some plans and means to create such a device
from the ground UP and I plan on LONG-TERM TESTING IT
using scientifically and engineering-wise validated methodologies
and instruments such as high-end calorimeters, amp-meters,
oscilloscopes & analyzers with the intent of a PROPER and GRATIS
(aka FREE & OPEN SOURCE) disclosure and PEER REVIEW of such
a device's minimum, peak, average and mean output (in WATTS
or Volts times AMPS per Unit of Time over many hours, days,
weeks and months)

As a person of some considerable experience-based (rather
than academic) scientific and engineering background,
I have the ability to create such a device (i.e. directional
electron flow via Van Der Waals subjugated, sub-micron-based
micro-cavity/micro-channel plate discharge) using a
custom-built microcircuit photolithography system.

I also have significant experience in 2D and 3D CAD/CAM/FAE
systems and thus will be able to provide a FULL SET of plans
for a WORKING device AND a full set of HDTV Quality
VIDEO INSTRUCTIONS for creating the self-built
photolithography system that will allow ANY business
(or motivated person) to create their own versions of
such a working "Almost-Free Energy" device.

Time Table? That's hard to say...I've already been working
on my Microchip FAB clean room for over two years now and
I am JUST GETTING to the point where I can RELIABLY
create 1 to 2-micron microcircuits on the cheap using
my own self-built photolithography system.

I've even had to LEARN how to create pure 50mm silicon disks
used as the substrate for micro-chips AND learn the chemistry
and techniques for doping the micro-layers to create the
junctions and transistors needed for creating a CPU processor.

I'm technically at the level of the early to mid-80's in terms
of building my own Intel-80386 or MC-68030 level
microprocessors on the relative cheap, but in 5 to 7 years
I should be able to do my own 90 nanometre or even
45 nanometre circuits using ultraviolet photo lithography.

Why I am detailing the above is to showcase that MANY
"Almost-Free Energy" devices REQUIRE micron-level and
nano-scale device manufacturing capability in order
to have a VIABLE chance at making a difference.

What HAS NOT been done before by someone (LIKE ME!)
actively LEARNING, mostly by experience or trial and error,
to create entire systems from the GROUND UP that have a
decent chance at success. And NO ONE until now has
DOCUMENTED the ENTIRE manufacturing process on
paper and via video so that 3rd parties would be ABLE
to do it themselves with relatively inexpensive
parts & supplies. And I WILL RELEASE this information
to the PUBLIC DOMAIN --- FREE ---- GRATIS --- OPEN SOURCE!!!!

BUT I won't be so stupid as to indicate a near term "Due Date"
but I CAN say that I could do it in about two to three years to
have at least ONE working prototype about the size of a
big Chest Freezer up and running for about $75,000
in materials, parts and supplies.

The Plans and Videos would be made publicly available under
complete disclosure and open-source terms. I won't be so naive
as to offer a guarantee of success....but I do have a reasonable
HOPE of SOME success! So we'll see what happens as I continue
my technical exploration via the dull, tedious and repetitive,
but well-proven "Scientific Method".

And I can assure you that I am almost incorruptible,
(depends on the carrots dangled in front of me
which isn't necessarily MONEY!), so I would
tend to IGNORE most buyout offers.

There IS one thing I would like to bring up which is a bit more
in tune with general "Conspiracy Theory" espoused on ATS
but that MANY have indicated is the active suppression of
and the raising of threats against persons who deal with
or successfully create (?) supposed "Free Energy" devices.

WOE IS HE the one to make active threats against me or my family
because number one....that would make me madder'n'hell.........!!!!!
(I WILL CUT OFF MY NOSE TO SPITE MY FACE JUST BECAUSE I CAN)
and UNLIKE OTHERS, I have the ability and large enough resources
to HIT BACK HARD and I LIKE GOING FOR THE JUGULAR !!!!!!!!!!!
And I have the added obsessive mentality of actively using
OVERWHELMING FORCE to WIN against my foes.
Using a clarifying analogy, I don't bring knives
to gunfights.....I BRING NUKES ---- BIG ONES !!!!!!


Hope that helps clarify this discussion!

How long do paitents last for?
I thought after 7 years or so anyone could make the same goods(thinking about drugs here!)

Yeah fair enough but he does explain in his article alot about his modifications an what he did.

www.craigvetter.com...

You make him sound so shifty or something but he does a good job in the interview.

Also many of the modifications he made would not have suited prolonged use. The cars and bikes we buy are designed to last many years, i doubt a bike with those mods would have matched up!!!

right now, a small diesel engine with anti particulate filters is still in front of the hybrid crowd. and when you have to scrap one, the cost of the recycling of a hybrid is way higher than a common car.
more little firms (like ricardo in britain) are working on technologies that can make an internal combustion engine humble a hybrid electric.
even cleaner techs are available, but they want us to buy these mid steps of cars before.

reply to post by StargateSG7


My compliments, SG7!
Yes- there are FAR too few "Garrage Inventers", today!! I, myself, have been "tinkering", in my shop (and mt Fathers shop, before!), since I was 10. At 12, I built my first telescope, a 6" F/10. It is still my best lunar scope!
I'm learning to build PV panels, and small wind turbines, now. Having much success, also. I can build an excellent looking/performing PV panel, for about 1/4 the cost, of a wholesale commercial unit.
I used to think I was born in the wrong century. I would read about "Gentleman Scientisis", and be jealous! Thomas Jefferson, is my Idol. Scholar/Amatuer Scientist, and a Virginia gentleman! If I had lived then, he WOULD have had children!

As far as 470 mpg- I don't think we'll ever see anything like that, for the general public. Oh- 100 mpg, sure! But- there is JUST so much energy, in a gallon of hydro-carbon fuel.
You can only make a frame SO light, and fragile, before they self-destruct, just from normal use. I don't like compact cars- having been hit by several drunk-drivers, I LIKE having a lot of steel around me.
Riding a motorcycle is fun- but very dangerous- due to OTHER drivers, not paying attention!
I like diesels- and the NEW generation of Diesels, out of Germany, are fantastic! Installed in a small frame, they SHOULD be able to get 60-75 mpg. I'd be happy with that, to run into town & back (I live in a rural area). Still- my BIG truck- gets 8MPG, empty- or with 5,000lbs in the back! (NOT in the mountains!)

reply to post by Havick007


Havick- I agree- those modifications, would cause the machine to quickly wear-out.
It seems, that some people, assumed that THIS was some kind of regular vehicle! No- it was a special purpose-bult, fun TOY!

You can only continue trimming weight/strength, so far, and STILL have a reasonably safe vehicle. I've BUILT an aluminum-frame airplane, one bucked-rivet at a time! So- LIGHT, STRONG, can be done. Just DO NOT expect to survive a crash, with an 18-wheeler! New, Carbon-Fiber, is super-efficient, a wonder material. A sportscar, with a carbon-fiber shell, and carbonfiber tube-frame, with a super-efficient new diesel- would be pretty close, to what we are looking for. FOR TWO PEOPLE!

reply to post by demonseed


WELL-PUT! There is NOTHING wrong, with Capitalism!! Greed- well, a little, is probably good. Mulit-national, giant corporations, are what gave Capitalism such a bad name.
Regular people, working on their own, experimenting, can create wonders!
While a TESLA, might only come-along every 400 years, there ARE brilliant people, everywhere. They SHOULD be allowed to "follow their bliss", and, YES- make MONEY, on their inventions! THAT is how, REAL PROGRESS, is made!
Communism, SUCKS. See ANY modern "Communist" Country! It is a system for ANTS, NOT HUMANS!
Would YOU like to live in Cuba?? I enjoy good rum, and sandy beaches- but I'll stick w/the USA, for now. I'm sad to see, the USA becoming a "workers paradise". The fools that fall for THAT line of cr@p, don't seem to realize, that the TOP-LEVEL RULERS, STILL live like kings & Queens-
while EVERYONE else, is just a slave.
Then-again- I'm a business-owner/inventer. I've made a good living, over the last twenty years, making my ideas, solid objects. I would NOT have worked 15-18 hour days, 70+ hours EVERY week, for someone else! I wouldn't expect any others, to do so, either!

I WAS dissapointed, to see that young man, bought by Honda. It makes no business sense to me- that 25 years ago, they made cars that got 50mpg- now- nope! I suspect, that the board of directers of the oil companies, and the car companies, are all the same families, if not people. It would make a very simple project- all of THAT info, is public knowlege!

reply to post by D.E.M.



Excellent thread OP. Thanks , I love this stuff!




OP , I have a Jeep as well that I plan on converting to run on HHO which I feel is a very cost effective alternative to the overpriced hybrid vehicles today.

What systems are you basing your plans off of ? The vacuum based system that creates HHO based upon throttle position ?


Anyone who rides a motorcycle understands the parasitic effects of aerodynamic drag.

In fact from Physics, the faster one goes, the higher the aeroydynamic drag requiring the square of the hp to increase your speed by one mph.

We have a little Honda Metropolitan scooter that has no real aerodynamics per se , but in stock form gets 100 mpg.

We use it for running little errands to the bank, post office, store along the back roads which is alot of fun. She tops out at about 40mph.
If one were to add aerodynamics to it, one could probably get considerably more.

100 mpg is alot better than even my Honda motorcycle which with its high performance 4 cylinder and it's 4 carburetors gets only about 45 mpg by comparison.

Speaking of hydrogen gas and vehicles. On a side note.
My grandfather told me after WWII in Germany when everything was destroyed and there was no gasoline. Those crafty Germans figured out a way to run their cars on HHO from burning wood !
It was called a Holtz Vergasser or Wood Carburetor....



here is some more information on the concept.

www.green-trust.org...

I loved the video on the Water car.
Nasa has been using fuel cells for decades.

I loved the video on the Japanese Electric Bike MissileTech !
Now That's what I call commuting !!


There are US companies doing this as well.

There is also an electric motorcycle company right here in the good 'ol USA called Brammo who makes a pretty cool full sized electric motorcycle. It gets about 100 miles out of a 4 hour charge and tops out at about 60 mph.

I am trying to get the word out because these small companies need to survive in order to fight the financial forces of the powers that be.

The Brammo Enertia



www.brammo.com...

Good Thread ~!



Star and Flag !!!!!

[edit on 23-6-2010 by nh_ee]

The electrical car discussion is a good trap to find those who live in the illusion of how cars should work.

It also shows how pathetic the green movement has become over the years.

I'm not pro-oil (especially since I pay 1,45€ per liter for gas in my country), but I'm not pro-green-lets-hug-trees movement either.

Having a civilization that is in "peace" with nature is a goal, not a path. The problem with the green movement is that people think it's a path, something that you continue to do. It isn't.

It's about changes that you make to your lifestyle (within reasonable limits) that help preserve the correct balance of things.

People have become retarded over this whole "green movement" thing. So much stupidity that people even do things that are actually worst than before, just because they want to be "in the movement".

It's a fashion. Why do you think that the Toyota Prius (Hybrid) started to be sold to celebrities?

What? All the sudden the people that so many of you despite and criticize, are the first ones to have a healthy and wise decision?

Electric cars are a show-off. Something to keep the environment crowd quiet until someone realizes the true problem.

The problem is where we get our energy, not how we use it.

Sure, make cute and silent little cars that work on batteries. Some areas use nuclear energy, so they are not using oil. But that's not true for most parts of the world.

Imagine a car that recharges when plugged to your house. Fantastic, isn't it? No. Because that power actually comes from a power plant, that will still provably use oil or fossil fuel for energy.

So now we have another problem. If people already make a huge fuss about shutting down your tv when you're not using it, imagine when everyone has a car plugged sucking a lot of power to charge batteries.

How stupid can people be to ignore this part of the problem? I mean, it's not solving the problem, it's just changing appearance.

Tuning your prius to work only on batteries and recharge on your house costs around 20,000$. Who can afford that?

And even if they make a car that costs around 15,000$ and can be recharged in your house, that keeps the problem. The energy continues to come from energy sources that are outdated and wrong.

Just because you are not putting gas on your car, doesn't mean that you're not using it, or even more.

And there is another thing about electric cars. Batteries are very toxic for the environment. Sure, there can be policies about recycling car batteries, but cars already use batteries, and those are a huge problem because so many people dump them everywhere. Imagine those massive lithium batteries being dumped somewhere...not pretty.

In my opinion, the way to go is to put a lot of effort into technologies like Hydrogen Fuel Cells, and stuff like that.

Solutions that solve the problem, not solutions that postpone the problem until it hits us in the face again.

Originally posted by 30_seconds

What we could have today should look like Star Trek.

What we do have today looks like the year 1900, with shiny paint.

Haha VERY VERY true!!!!!

I posted this in the $7 a gallon gas thread, but I think it should also be mentioned here.

Originally posted by CUin2013?
The golf cart idea made me think of electric cars. I looked around and found: Smart USA

These small electric cars will not be available till 2012 (hmm). They will be distributed to only a few big cities. They can go around 80 miles on one charge and can be completely recharged in about 8 hours.

I would love to have one. I have a small solar backup system with a small windmill generator at my house that I could use to recharge the batteries. 80 miles is more than enough for me to run around town.

Why are they not available now?

I remember a few years ago when GM had an electric car that they tried and then recalled every one of them. Was it too big a strain on our electric infrastructure? I think this might have been the case, especially in the summer with the cooling demands are very high.

Either way I can totally see driving one of these and get away from $4 to $7 gallon of gas.