Arizona- Federal Land/Cartel Research

First, let's make one thing clear. I am for fixing this problem.

However, I am not for bashing illegals or blaming Mexico for everything that is going on on the border. Could Mexico do more? No doubt that they could. But at some point many of you are going to have to realize that the US can and should do more as well. IMO, our government should have more capabilities and resources to fix the problem than Mexico.

Sometimes, its easy to get carried away due to headlines and totally blame somebody else. But there are times when one should get down to the root of the problem and expose all the flaws from all sides.

Lately, there's been some threads about Federal land that has become off limits due to violence, smuggling, drugs. Thought I would look into it and find out what is really going.

Well, it turns out that in a way the land isn't being taken over. Now wait, before you start posting videos and articles to show me otherwise. What I am saying is that the land still belongs to the government.

The real problem is that you have the Department of Interior (DOI) and Homeland Security (DHS) in an interagency dispute. The DOI, based on a 1964 law, restricts what Border Patrol can do on Federal land. For the most part, the Border Patrol cannot patrol on federal land without permission.

Guess you can say that the protection of plants and animals is more important than stopping smuggling and illegal drugs. Yes, know the smugglers and illegals are destroying the area. But for some reason, the DOI think the Border Patrol will do more damage. In one article, the DOI had charged DHS about 10 million for damage while chasing illegals. Go figure.

According to e-mails obtained by Mr. Bishop, Park Service officials at Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument and at the Denver office that oversees the park said they will not allow the Border Patrol to place electronic surveillance towers on parts of the park that are designated wilderness.

In a remarkably candid letter to members of Congress, Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano said her department could have to delay pursuits of illegal immigrants while waiting for horses to be brought in so agents don't trample protected lands, and warns that illegal immigrants will increasingly make use of remote, protected areas to avoid being caught.

www.washingtontimes.com... dlines

Ken Salazar, head of DOI response to criticism of not allowing border patrol onto federal land.

CNSNews.com: "Last week Republicans introduced legislation that would prohibit the Department of Interior from impeding Border Patrol operations on federal lands. Do you think the Department of Interior should get out of the way of the Border Patrol agency, from, from them doing their, their job?"

Salazar: "You know, we have a national security imperative in our borders, but we believe that the national security can be met at the same time that we recognize the important ecological values that we have across the border and it has certainly been the case where we’ve worked well with both Mexico as well as with Canada in terms of transnational cross border issues that have to do wildlife and national parks issues and we hope to continue that agenda. Thank you very much."

www.cnsnews.com...

Rep. Bishop is the one leading the charge to have the policy overturned.

He said that would ensure that Interior's policies "no longer enable dangerous criminals to co-opt federal border lands as their drug trafficking highways." Bishop for months has been calling for Interior Secretary Ken Salazar to change the policy on his own. Bishop, the ranking Republican on a subcommittee that oversees national parks and public lands, visited the border earlier this year and said he saw many problems caused by current policy. "After seeing firsthand so many signs of illegal activity on our border, including trails cut into federal border lands and the environmental degradation caused by trafficking trains, I requested that Secretary Salazar take immediate action," he said. But Bishop complained, "Salazar has repeatedly ignored requests for his attention on the matter and seems to have blown off concerns regarding national security and safety issues."

thewesterner.blogspot.com...


Bishop Proposed Legislation HR 5016

The only thing I don't understand about the legislation is the urgency. If Bishop feels that the DOI is ignoring than he should make a full blitz to try to get his legislation into law. What is the holdup?

I understand this issue is heated. What I don't understand is why many see it necessary to bring hate and violence into this issue. Going to war with Mexico, shooting or maiming anyone who crosses the border, or just pure hating on Mexicans is not a solution.

Furthermore, Mexico and illegals are only part of the problem. The real problem and solutions lie withing our own government. I encourage everyone to do research on the issue and not merely take what the media says to heart. Notice how most of the media who posted the story about the federal land never mentioned the dispute about DOI and DHS.

If you want to help take care of this issue, contact your representatives and tell them to allow the Border Patrol to do their job. I find it funny that a federal law enforcement agency can't do its job on federal land.



[edit on 16-6-2010 by jam321]

In a statement released this week warning that "the national security threat from the North is real," the Republican members of the U.S. House of Representatives committee on natural resources alleged that agents with the Department of Homeland Security and U.S. Border Patrol "are frequently unable to effectively monitor this land due to environmental regulations."

www.globaltvedmonton.com...

Environment vs National security

Which one do you favor?

Interesting...reminds me of firefighting on federal forest land...most don't allow bulldozers and some are so strict they allow no power tools at all, even chainsaws! Gotta cut and dig everything by hand...they want to keep the land as natural as possible but at the risk of letting the fire burn everything to the ground

The government severely lacks common sense at times...

It sickens me to see that we cannot secure 80 miles of border. The damn beaurocracy and the red tape gets in the way every time.

AZ should put the AZNG down there and if it moves it dead. Border Secured.

They should notify Mexico 30 days before this action is taken so no one needs to die. However if they cross that line feed the buzzards.

reply to post by SWCCFAN

AZ should put the AZNG down there and if it moves it dead. Border Secured

If they won't let the Border Patrol on the land, what makes you think they will let the AZNG on the land?

Furthermore, is using force really the only way you see that this problem can be solved?

Thanks for the reply.

reply to post by jam321


Its called use of force, and Yes I think that is the only thing that will secure that area.

Having been to some hell holes overseas I have a good Idea what is needed to secure that area.

About 2500 AZNG should do it.

However the smuglers will find other places to cross so it needs to be done along the entire border. The only legal place to cross is at a border check point that is manned 24/7.

Crossing anywhere else is illegal and may result in the use of deadly force.

You see guys Homeland Security is not about securing the nation from a foreign threat. It's protecting the people in power from we the people.

It's been 9 years since the 9/11 attacks and are we more secure now than we were then? The border was an issue long before that.

Nothing has changed because those in power don't want it to.

If the federal government cannot do its job the states should step up to the plate and do it for them.

The states can pass leglesation that mandates all federal taxes to be paid to the state. Once the state witholds its share to cover the cost of border security the state treasure writes the feds a check for the ballance.

reply to post by jam321

If they won't let the Border Patrol on the land, what makes you think they will let the AZNG on the land?

AZ must seize the land from the Federal Government. Which they have every right to do since the feds cannot keep it secure.

When the tree huggers cry foul, well to hell with them.

The border needs to be secured, learn to deal with it.

[edit on 16-6-2010 by SWCCFAN]

reply to post by SWCCFAN

Nothing has changed because those in power don't want it to.

Is it because they don't want to or because nobody is pressuring them to do so? IMO, it is the latter.

You see a lot of complaining but I don't see hardly anybody mustering in Washington to demand this be addressed.

It's been 9 years since the 9/11 attacks and are we more secure now than we were then? The border was an issue long before that.

It was an issue. But more of an immigration issue than what you currently see. And even at that the issue was minimum because everybody was enjoying the good times. What you are seeing today is due to the war on drugs that plunged Mexico into violence.

A war that our country is a part of.

As far as being secured, it could be 100 years and we still won't be secure. The fact of the matter is that people will be successful in attacking us.

And if you are so concerned about security, what about the security at our other borders and waterways? What about those who enter legally like the 9/11 hijackers, shoe bomber, underwear bomber, and others who want to hurt this country?

The border needs to be secured, learn to deal with it.

I can learn to deal with anything. The question is can you? Up to this moment all you have talked about is violent measures to secure our border. The government isn't going to go your route. Guess it is something you need to learn to deal with.

Thanks for your reply.

You guys may be interested in listening to this interview that ran on NPR recently.

www.onthemedia.org...

reply to post by gwynnhwyfar


Thanks for the info

Part of what you’re seeing on the border is a mutual fantasy or fraud perpetrated by both governments. On the U.S. side and these agencies are slowly being corrupted, and they're being corrupted because the money’s so big. I've interviewed gang leaders in Juarez, and I'd say, how do you move drugs to El Paso? And they'd say, well, we use the Border Patrol and the U.S. Army. I've interviewed cartel members, and I said, don't you ever worry about DEA and the FBI? And they'd say, no, we have people in there.

Now, I don't think these stories are false, and certainly nobody in DEA has any trouble believing them. But they are buried. Nobody will talk about them out loud.

www.onthemedia.org...

The quote above reminds of this.

Richard Padilla Cramer corrupted U.S. Gov. ICE Agent.

As an example a High ranking U.S. Government official is double agent and member of the Mexican Drug Cartels: Richard Cramer, as a high-ranking U.S. anti-drug official, held front-line posts both in the United States and in Mexico in regards to the War on Drugs. Cramer was into drug trafficking as a full partner in Mexico´s Mexican Drug Cartel's murderous drug lords. According to records made available to the U.S. Border Fire Report, he led an office of two dozen agents in Arizona and others as the attaché officer for Immigration and Customs Enforcement in Guadalajara Mexico and worked with the U.S. Mexican Embassy in Mexico City and U.S. Consulate offices in Guadalajara and other Mexican cities. Creamer is only one of many U.S. law enforcement personal who have been corrupted by the MDC's and caught.

www.americanchronicle.com...

Guess this is the reason they recently created a task force to deal with corrupt officials.

FBI-led Border Corruption Task Forces are the cornerstone of our efforts to root out this kind of corruption. Initially located primarily along our nation’s southwest border, we now also have task forces in Detroit, Miami, and San Juan, and we are setting up others in cities like Buffalo, Newark, and Seattle. These task forces generally consist of representatives from the FBI, Department of Homeland Security agencies (including Customs and Border Protection Internal Affairs, Transportation Security Administration, Immigration and Customs Enforcement, and Department of Homeland Security—Office of Inspector General), and state and local law enforcement.

And we’ve just created a National Border Corruption Task Force at FBI Headquarters. It’s role—much like that of our National Joint Terrorism Task Force—is to coordinate the activities of these regional task forces, especially in the areas of investigations, training, and inter-agency cooperation.

www.fbi.gov...

I was told by a Border Patrol Agent that works in CA, that the official border crossings are so busy on Holidays that they are not allowed to stop the traffic due to much congestion. He said the government often prevents them from doing their job. When I would visit my friends on the weekend, every morning their would be fresh foot prints from border crossing people down their driveway.

[edit on 17-6-2010 by Ektar]

[edit on 17-6-2010 by Ektar]

reply to post by Ektar


Based on info I have been told by my friend who works for the border patrol, you are saying the truth.

Those are probably the best days to get all the drugs into the US.

Why can't the Border Patrol use horses? Several countries in Eastern Europe and Asia make very heavy use of horse mounted border guards. The Russians for example have several entirely horse mounted border guard battalions in Kyrgyzstan.

reply to post by ChrisF231


I'm sure they could use horses. I believe they are used up North. But in many cases they can't even put their sensors up. In other articles I read, sometimes they have to be escorted.

Just a power struggle. IMO, border patrol should have fre rein to do their job in a proficient manner.

Thanks for reply.

Originally posted by jam321
I find it funny that a federal law enforcement agency can't do its job on federal land.

Very, very interesting thread (as is typical from you).

So, can we glean from this that the DOI Enforcement Division will take action against another US agency, but not against the smugglers who are violating the same environmental regulations?

I fear for my country, more and more every day.

[edit on 17-6-2010 by WTFover]

reply to post by WTFover


It is odd, but IMO not uncommon.

The simple thing is for the DOI to change the policy.

This would save money, lives, and help secure the border.

Kinda makes you wonder if the media really does monitor ATS and its brilliant members!

Border Patrol Charged Millions for Habitat Damage, Republicans Say Enough 'Extortion'

Republican lawmakers are calling on the Interior Department to stop charging what they describe as "extortion" money from the Border Patrol -- millions of under-the-radar dollars meant to cover environmental damage stemming from their everyday duties along the U.S.-Mexico border...

www.foxnews.com...

Once again...Good job jam!

[edit on 21-6-2010 by WTFover]