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"Logically speaking"... you realize that just because the individuals you asked the questions to didn't have the answers doesn't mean that there are NO answers to your questions.
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Originally posted by Wang Tang
I am wondering, if you are like me and was a Christian and then left it, why is it that you left?
Simply, it didn't make logical sense. Over the years, all my logical questions went unanswered. I was given answers like "It's God's will" or "He works in mysterious ways" or some other such answer, meant to shut me up and stop my thinking processes.
It just got to the point that I realized that Christianity, religion and belief in God made no logical sense at ALL. I could no longer pretend to believe in something when all signals pointed to me being wrong.
Since unloading my life of everything having to do with religion, life makes so much more sense to me. I don't feel all the attachments that I used to feel with religion. I feel really free.
Like the OP, I don't need religion to know that being a good person is the right thing to do. I know that generosity, kindness, open-mindedness and honesty are traits that I want to have. Not because someone tells me to or because I read it in a book, but because I WANT to and it feels right.
I don't need the fear, threats, insecurity and dogma that comes with religion.
Originally posted by NOTurTypical
"Logically speaking"... you realize that just because the individuals you asked the questions to didn't have the answers doesn't mean that there are NO answers to your questions.
"Apologetics" have not been actively taught to churches in over 130 years.. Now if it's no longer being taught to parishioners, how can those same parents teach it to their children at night? I can link you to various websites that deal specifically in Christian Apologetics and can assure you that there is an answer to every question you could imagine. Like I said, just because persons X,Y, and Z do not have an answer to questions A,B, and C, does not mean questions A,B, and C have no answers to them.
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by NOTurTypical
Originally posted by NOTurTypical
"Logically speaking"... you realize that just because the individuals you asked the questions to didn't have the answers doesn't mean that there are NO answers to your questions.
It's certainly scientifically possible that there ARE logical answers, but I started asking questions with I was five years old and didn't stop until about 30 years later, when I realized that no one really had the answers and they were making them up. I asked these questions of my parents, many people of several religions, nearly every person who tried to push their religion on me, including people who came to my door, peddling their religion and several theologists.
I eventually came to my own conclusions about religion, as I think each individual should.
Originally posted by NOTurTypical
"Apologetics" have not been actively taught to churches in over 130 years.. Now if it's no longer being taught to parishioners, how can those same parents teach it to their children at night?
I can link you to various websites that deal specifically in Christian Apologetics and can assure you that there is an answer to every question you could imagine.
What questions are you concerned with?
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
So, you think I'm lying? I don't know where you've been but there are millions of people who defend their religion using their own form of reason and logic. I assure you that I am not lying.
If I wanted to delve into the subject, I could find them myself. I'm quite good with the Google. Thanks, but I'm not interested.
Originally posted by NOTurTypical
What are you talking about? I never said you were a liar
I'm sure your experience is VERY real, because Christians are not taught logical Apologetics much if all anymore in churches.
Then the discussion is over with
you don't want to really know the answers to your questions, and used a fallacy of logic to escape finding truth.
You falsely assumed that because some people couldn't answer your questions that your questions had no answers to.
Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Whether I said "logical Apologetics" or simply "Apologetics" is not the issue, the fact is for over 130 years the churches have not taught ANY Apologetics to the parishioners.
Secondly, you made the claim that the answers you got which led you away were "It's just God's will" etc... which means as you claimed, you were led away by people who did not have the answers to your questions.
If you were not being truthful earlier when I originally quoted that comment then that's your problem, not mine.
You just have to inquire from the right source who has it.
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I hate the idea of anyone trying to sell their religion to me, whether they call it proselytizing, witnessing or "logical apologetics" (which is a term I had never heard until today).
To me, beliefs are a private thing and I feel like you're trying to dig into me to see what I do and don't believe so you can convince me otherwise.
Let me be clear about that: I'm not interested. My beliefs are mine. I don't try to push them on you or try to make you believe something you don't believe.
I was raised in a VERY religious home and have had a multitude of opportunities to learn anything I wanted to about religion, specifically Christianity. It doesn't make sense to me.
And I'm not interested in you trying to MAKE it make sense to me. I'm sorry if this ruins your approach, but I'm not in the market for a religion. If I were, I would search one out for myself.
You are concentrating on only a portion of my original response. I also stated: It just got to the point that I realized that Christianity, religion and belief in God made no logical sense at ALL. I could no longer pretend to believe in something when all signals pointed to me being wrong.
So, now you ARE questioning my honesty.
I have no doubt that there are answers out there that make logical sense to you.
That's great. But I'm not interested in delving into something (belief in God and the practice of religion) that doesn't (to me) make sense on the face of it.
I answered the OP in this thread with a short and sweet answer and I feel like you're preying (not praying) on people in this thread to try to get those of us who have left Christianity to return to it.
Originally posted by NOTurTypical
"Apologetics" isn't PRO-ACTIVE, it's RE-ACTIVE. Meaning, it reacts to questions posed TO IT.
Notice the terms "defense" and "asks you" above... that's RE-ACTIVE, not PRO-ACTIVE.
... you're not the ONLY one reading our discussion, there are many others here who may ALSO be wondering if there are answers to THEIR tough criticisms against God, Jesus, or Christianity...
Secondly, if you didn't 'try to push your beliefs' on others you wouldn't make comments like "It just got to the point that I realized that Christianity, religion and belief in God made no logical sense at ALL."
So, you clearly don't practice what you preach Sir.
And how exactly am I supposed to comment on what does or does not make sense TO YOU????
Originally posted by NOTurTypical
"Logically speaking"... you realize that just because the individuals you asked the questions to didn't have the answers doesn't mean that there are NO answers to your questions.
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Originally posted by NOTurTypical
And what questions did I ask YOU? None. You approached me with your information on apologetics and book recommendations that I didn't ask for.
I never claimed that YOU asked me a question. Stop reading into things that are not there to begin with. You made THIS statement:
"I hate the idea of anyone trying to sell their religion to me, whether they call it proselytizing, witnessing or "logical apologetics""
To which I corrected your ignorance to what "Apologetics" means/is.. It isn't anyone "trying to sell" you anything, Apologetics reacts to questions posed. If one has no desire to HEAR Apologetics they need not ask any questions. I haven't even begun to apply and Apologetics here in our discussion because you've asked no questions that require me to do so.
Yeah. I noticed. I didn't ASK YOU, you asked me, "What questions are you concerned with"? If I wanted to, I would have asked you questions, but I didn't. That's my choice, right?
Slow down, take a few deep breaths.... Okay, again, I was correcting your idea of Apologetics in the statement you made above.
I'm sure if they are curious, they will ASK YOU. I have a feeling that you don't often wait for people to ASK YOU...
I'm sure they will if they're interested in learning truth. And you gotta stop assuming, you don't do it very well at all. I know you never asked me any questions about God, Jesus, or Christianity... kinda why I have YET to offer any Apologetics to those topics/questions. Are we CLEAR yet????
Someone asked a question, I answered it. I didn't push it on anyone. I stated my belief. I didn't push people to agree with me or attack them when they didn't. Take a lesson.
Next time add a simple "IMHO" and you won't be read as a hypocrite.
You took it upon yourself to comment on my answer in this thread.
Check that narcissism again, this is a public forum, I can respond to ANY post I decide I want to quote. Is that okay with you?? And I've previously state, I took exception to you use of the fallacy of logic that made it seem that since the people you asked tough questions to didn't answer your questions that somehow that meant you had questions that could not be answered. Which is ludicrously false.
Your user-name is NOTurTypical, but I gotta tell you, what has happened in this thread with you is very typical regarding my interaction with Christians.
Save the personal attacks for someone else who may be wavered by them... probably the same ilk that rationalize with the same fallacies you've displayed for a few pages now.
Originally posted by Wang Tang
Originally posted by NOTurTypical
"Logically speaking"... you realize that just because the individuals you asked the questions to didn't have the answers doesn't mean that there are NO answers to your questions.
A religion is only as good as its worst followers. One of the biggest failures of Islam is its inability to stop its terrorist groups and suicide bombers and dictatorships. One of the biggest failures of Christianity is having such a large group of people who call themselves Christian who don't actually give a crap or know a crap about Christianity. And when you are a Christian and you want answers and you want fellowship and you look around and all you see is fakes, you eventually get discouraged.
Originally posted by NOTurTypical
That's a nice quip I'll give you that, but logically speaking truth stands on it's own merits. Christianity is defined by the teachings of Christ. Even He said MANY would be wolves in sheeps clothing. There are numerous fakes, and I agree that it's discouraging, but Christianity is about a personal relationship with God that's made possible by the sacrificial work of Jesus Christ. It's a personal thing between yourself and God, so other's actions shouldn't matter. Jesus said there would be many that were false prophets, teachers, and witnesses.