Quoting classified documents

I have a question, does it endanger ATS or break any laws to quote from leaked classified documents from sites such as Wikileaks?

I want to, but I dont want to endanger ATS, and using the search feature I could not find a definitive answer.

Thanks in advance.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


That's what ATS is for.
To share what needs to be shared.
The documents are already out, for the world to see.
So share it.

That is the purpose of WikiLeaks~
to get the info out there,
and to have it further spread and discussed.
Otherwise~ there would be no point.

[edit on 12-6-2010 by Ahmose]

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


If you found it in the public domain , such as the internet , then it is already public knowledge .

Quoting something from the internet is not a crime . YET .

Thanks guys. I thought so too, but since they are apparently hunting the founder of Wikileaks down, I didnt want to accidentally get SO and the others on the NSA poop list.

Although they may already be, lol.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


If SO or the staff feels there is a threat , they will let you know and remove anything they may deem illegal or otherwise inappropriate .

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


Posting classified data on this site would be a good way for you to make enemies.

I suggest you don't do it.

*If Julian Assange breaks the law does that mean all of a sudden you have permission to break it too?

Originally posted by okbmd
reply to post by Illusionsaregrander

 

If SO or the staff feels there is a threat , they will let you know and remove anything they may deem illegal or otherwise inappropriate .

Unless they staff has security clearances and uses them all the time - they are not going to know who is posting classified material here (unless the poster actually is dumb enough to point out that they are posting classified material and then actually posts it...).

Also, if they did know it was classified, don't expect them to that out point either when they remove it.

Posting links to classified material or items on WikiLeaks wouldn't endanger ATS.

Uploading something and having it hosted on ATS would be a different story.

reply to post by Exuberant1


I would not be posting classified material that had not already been posted on Wikileaks, so it wouldnt be breaking news in that sense. I just wasnt sure if once it had already appeared on the internet somewhere if it was fair game to repost, or if posting it here would bring the wrath of the CIA, FBI, whomever down on the site owners heads.

To date, as far as I know, I have never linked or posted to anything classified, even if it had already been leaked, so I wanted to know ahead of time in case I did. Better to know ahead of time, than get everyone in trouble because I hadnt bothered to ask.

Julian Assange (sp?) is not a US citizen. Its not traitorous of him to leak our documents. He doesnt owe us loyalty. Whether or not he is breaking the law is an interesting point. He has withstood legal challenges on that point, so apparently, he is NOT breaking the law. He is not running, I suspect, because he fears going to court. He is running, I suspect, because he fears where legal challenge has failed, bullets may succeed. My question was would WE be breaking the law to quote it, as we are US citizens. If not, if the fact that it is already public domain makes it acceptable, then there is no reason not to link to or quote it.

I am no traitor. I would never betray my country, my countrymen in general, or my Constitution to an enemy. But if those enacted with the public trust are betraying my country, my countrymen, and my Constitution, they should not expect me to enable that in any way. In my opinion, that would give them the title "enemy." Even our founders recognized that enemies can be domestic as well as foreign.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


If you are helping to undermine your country then that is what you are doing.

That is what those involved with the leaks of these cables will be doing - undermining the United States and our interests. They will be making themselves a threat to the United States and no amount of self-delusion on their part will change that.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander
On one of the ATS Radio shows, the site owners discussed wikileaks and supported the idea of posting leaked documents on ATS. I think one of the arguments was that ATS is a way more popular site and such documents would generate more interest.

Feel free to ignore the rest of this post...it's only loosely OT and plain opinion

I understand the national security argument, but each document would be judged on merit.

An example is the current situation in Afghanistan, Afghan Intelligence officers are in league with senior Taliban figures. They're actively involved in feeding back Intel to Taliban forces and stand accused of actually being on the senior Taliban council. The justification of 'National Security' is on the side of the Afghani Intel officers...they are likely maintaining a relationship in the event of an Allied withdrawal leaving Pakistan vulnerable to attack by the Taliban.

This kind of double-play would merit exposure. If Allied interests acted in this way would 'National Security' justify keeping it quiet? I would hope not. Publicity around Abu Graihb (sp?) was justified, but increased anti-West feelings and increased Fundamental Islam. Many historical examples of national interests/security don't stand scrutiny so why would modern foreign affairs be any different?

One would hope that, if Assange has the alleged information, he and others will differentiate between unjustifiable moral/ethical FUBARs and information that could lead to the deaths of Allied forces.

Originally posted by Exuberant1
*If Julian Assange breaks the law does that mean all of a sudden you have permission to break it too?

ATS intended for the discussion of conspiracies. So...erm...yes! We have a responsibility to keep talking where ohers don't so that the people will eventually see it.

Originally posted by Exuberant1
If you are helping to undermine your country then that is what you are doing.

In a country that has made it legal for corporate interests to undermine it's citizenry, I find that I have no problem with undermining aspects of it.

Illusions - There is no issue with quoting from wikileaks. There is no risk to ATS in the least and we would potentially even vehemently defend an original leak to ATS.

Hope that helps...

Originally posted by okbmd
reply to post by Illusionsaregrander

 

If you found it in the public domain , such as the internet , then it is already public knowledge .

Quoting something from the internet is not a crime . YET .

How about if it from different means but not found on internet. Say someone "get holds" of classified documents by "other means".

Originally posted by MemoryShock
There is no risk to ATS in the least and we would potentially even vehemently defend an original leak to ATS.

Hope that helps...

Glad to know that ! If I get hold of any such information ATS would be the second place I would post it on.

Originally posted by Crimson_King

Originally posted by okbmd
reply to post by Illusionsaregrander

 

If you found it in the public domain , such as the internet , then it is already public knowledge .

Quoting something from the internet is not a crime . YET .

How about if it from different means but not found on internet. Say someone "get holds" of classified documents by "other means".

Well then if you are not aloud to know about it, you have already done something illegal by viewing the documents. Unless you are one of those people who are aloud.

Originally posted by Crimson_King

Originally posted by okbmd
reply to post by Illusionsaregrander

 

If you found it in the public domain , such as the internet , then it is already public knowledge .

Quoting something from the internet is not a crime . YET .

How about if it from different means but not found on internet. Say someone "get holds" of classified documents by "other means".

My experience with this sort of thing is as follows:

1) If it's information you're responsible for by NDA, and you leak it, you're in trouble if they catch you. YOU are the one in trouble.

2) If someone gets the info and hands it to you, and you then post it:

a) If it's nuclear weapons design info, there's something called the "born secret" doctrine which they may try to pull out of their pockets and say you were implicitly NDAd on the material from the instant of possessing it. That's never been used. They may, however, try it.

b) If it's really juicy, they will try to make the case that you solicited it. That is a felony. If you asked your source "Hey, Joe, I'd like to see the secret info on the Proteus weapon" and they give it to you, if they can prove this you both go to jail, do not pass go, do not get out anytime soon.

3) If you get it by theft you are liable. I think that there are a number of boundary condition caveats like if you lurk around a military installation and ferret out a secret by observation it is a felony as well, I'd have to go look the details up on those.

Basically, the first person in the chain is the liable party. If you haven't signed an NDA, and you have no security clearance, and you don't have a government job and you can stand up to an IRS audit, then publishing secret or better material that you did not solicit or take by theft from a government installation seems to be your choice. In GB it would not be - they have an Official Secrets Act; in the US it's a lot more difficult for them to stop the next guy in the chain.

Australia doesn't have an OSA, although New Zealand does. If Australia had one, they could likely nab the Wikileaks guy on some pretense or other.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


Posting something found on the public domain is fine.

If you manage to find never-before released information with a classification higher than Unclassified FOUO, then you are in violation of Title 18 United States Code.

I am a US Army Counterintelligence Special Agent.

I've already gone forward with information provided to me from another member where several classified documents were released onto this site.

This is not me trying to talk myself up or sound menacing, but I take the nation's secrets VERY seriously and will report as high as I need to go the release of any classified information onto any part of the internet. IPs do get tracked, so you're not safe hiding behind a screen name.

Just keep it limited to public knowledge or previously released classified info.

Cheers!

Originally posted by mf_luder
If you manage to find never-before released information with a classification higher than Unclassified FOUO, then you are in violation of Title 18 United States Code.

I am a US Army Counterintelligence Special Agent.

Yeah, technically it says "whoever", but in practice, have you ever seen anyone face action that wasn't the original responsible party?

Back in 2004 I had a long unpleasant meeting at BAFB over something I had "disclosed", it turned out that not only was I not NDAd on the material, but had had no contact with anyone they could prove WAS.

The Sandia guys had put a bit too much info into a press release, and while you wouldn't have known what they were dancing around unless you'd been in the biz, it was reconstructable if you had.

I got an ass-chewing for disclosing something I had just figured out from the material, with mild Born Secret threats, but in the end I didn't even lose my clearance.

edit: PS, for the rest of you, it's 18 USC 794 that's the scary one. The others are (copied from my last DD1847): 18 USC 793, 798, 952, 50 USC 783b, and EO12356.

Some of these may be unenforceable constitutionally, and some don't apply to this discussion, but it would be a long row to hoe if they formally charged you with one of them.



[edit on 13-6-2010 by Bedlam]

reply to post by Exuberant1

They will be making themselves a threat to the United States ...

If the United States had already "gone off the rails", as some would say it has, I would suppose that releasing documents that illustrate or prove that point would be a threat to it, but then again, might that not be a legitimate and worthwhile thing to do??

Just asking.

Originally posted by mf_luder

Posting something found on the public domain is fine.

Thank you. I appreciate it.

Originally posted by mf_luder
This is not me trying to talk myself up or sound menacing, but I take the nation's secrets VERY seriously and will report as high as I need to go the release of any classified information onto any part of the internet.

I can only hope you take your nation and its Constitution as seriously as you take guarding our secrets. If more people in positions of trust WOULD take their loyalty to America as seriously as they took their loyalty to the almighty dollar, I dont think you intelligence agents would be in quite the position you are in. I dont know a single soul who would betray America, but I know a ton who think our leaders are doing just that.

Originally posted by mf_luder
IPs do get tracked, so you're not safe hiding behind a screen name.

Dont worry. If I ever got my hands on something that I felt was of such critical importance to the American people that I had to break the law and release it without authorization, you wouldnt have to hunt me down. I take responsibility for my actions. I would turn myself in afterwards.

Cheers! And thanks again!