The difference between Israel and Germany (PR, genocide, etc)

I keep seeing people comparing Israel to the nazis, claiming that israel is preforming genocide, and that israeli PR is equal to that of the nazis against the jews.

I have decided it might be worth to test that theory with facts.
I'll keep it short and simple, as I'm sure there are some trolls out there just waiting to reply. Hold your horses for one second, and let's look at facts, shall we?

PR:
nazi-

Nazi propaganda provided a crucial instrument for acquiring and maintaining power, and for the implementation of their policies, including the pursuit of total war and the extermination of millions of people in the Holocaust.
Nazi propaganda existed in all forms of media-
German newspaper disseminated Nazi ideology in the form of brief hyperboles directed against the weakness of parliamentarism, the evils of Jewry and Bolshevism. It was mainly dedicated to attacks against political opponents and Jews – one of its most striking features were vehemently anti-semitic cartoons by Hans Schweitzer.
Poster art was a mainstay of the Nazi propaganda effort, aimed both at Germany itself and occupied territories.
The Nazis produced many films to promote their views. Themes included the virtues of the Nordic or Aryan type, German military and industrial strength, and the evils of the Nazi enemies. "The eternal jew" is a movie done in the style of a documentary, the central thesis being the immutable racial personality traits that characterize the Jew as a wandering cultural parasite.
The Nazis and sympathizers published many books. Most of the beliefs that would become associated with the Nazis, such as German nationalism, eugenics and anti-Semitism had been in circulation since the 19th century, and the Nazis seized on this body of existing work in their own publications.
The Nazi-controlled government in German-occupied France produced the Vica comic book series during World War II as a propaganda tool against the Allied forces.
Signal was a propaganda magazine published by the Wehrmacht during World War II. It was distributed throughout occupied Europe and neutral countries.
The radio was an important tool in Nazi propaganda and it has been argued that it was the Nazis who pioneered the use of what was still a relatively new technology as a tool of genocide.

(Taken from en.wikipedia.org...)

And as for some vids-
www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

Israeli

Most of israeli PR is focused on hamas, rather then the people of gaza, and on justifying israeli actions. It is not directed at vilifying the people of gaza, nor does it have any active part or spot in israeli TV, news, radio, etc. You can mostly find it only on youtube. In the news and media we have representation of both left and right wing politics. No caricatures also, in case you were wondering.
As for propoganda in the media-
Israeli newspapers constantly criticize the government and army decisions, seriously, constantly... Go check israeli news sites like www.haaretz.com if you don't believe me. Free speech is an important part in israeli press and is freely exercised, as long as it does not reveal state secrets or endanger anyone.
Israeli film about the IDF, and activity in recent years is full of moral questions and doubts as to the necessity of war, and often portray soldiers as they are, fragile, human, confused, against overwhelming moral decisions. I invite you to watch "Walse with bashir", "Beaufort" or "Lebanon" all very powerful, and do not portray the IDF as definitively moral, right, or the soldiers as strong. It just shows war as it is. Horrible.
The posters in israels are used solely for cinema.
The books are pretty much the same deal as the films.
Magazines are pretty much the same as anywhere.
The radio has the usual news and the back and forth of commentators and callers from both sides of the fence.

Genocide
Nazi:
If you know this move to the next post

The holocost-
The persecution and genocide were carried out in stages. Legislation to remove the Jews from civil society was enacted years before the outbreak of World War II. Concentration camps were established in which inmates were used as slave labor until they died of exhaustion or disease.
Where the Third Reich conquered new territory in eastern Europe, specialized units called Einsatzgruppen murdered Jews and political opponents in mass shootings.
Starting in December 1939, the Nazis introduced new methods of mass murder by using gas.
Large vans holding up to 100 people were filled with gas as the nazi experimented with gas killings. They were used to kill about 500,000, primarily Jews, but also Romani and others.
A need for new mass murder techniques was also expressed by Hans Frank, governor of the General Government, who noted that this many people could not be simply shot.
A plan was presented for killing all the Jews in Europe, including 330,000 Jews in England and 4,000 in Ireland.
Three new camps were built for the sole purpose of killing large numbers of Jews as quickly as possible, at Belzec, Sobibór and Treblinka.
At the extermination camps with gas chambers all the prisoners arrived by train. Sometimes entire trainloads were sent straight to the gas chambers, but usually the camp doctor on duty subjected individuals to selections, where a small percentage were deemed fit to work in the slave labor camps; the majority were taken directly from the platforms to a reception area where all their clothes and other possessions were seized by the Nazis to help fund the war. They were then herded naked into the gas chambers. Usually they were told these were showers or delousing chambers, and there were signs outside saying "baths" and "sauna." They were sometimes given a small piece of soap and a towel so as to avoid panic, and were told to remember where they had put their belongings for the same reason. When they asked for water because they were thirsty after the long journey in the cattle trains, they were told to hurry up, because coffee was waiting for them in the camp, and it was getting cold.
Once the chamber was full, the doors were screwed shut and solid pellets of Zyklon-B were dropped into the chambers through vents in the side walls, releasing toxic HCN, or hydrogen cyanide. Those inside died within 20 minutes; the speed of death depended on how close the inmate was standing to a gas vent, according to Höß, who estimated that about one third of the victims died immediately. Joann Kremer, an SS doctor who oversaw the gassings, testified that: "Shouting and screaming of the victims could be heard through the opening and it was clear that they fought for their lives." When they were removed, if the chamber had been very congested, as they often were, the victims were found half-squatting, their skin colored pink with red and green spots, some foaming at the mouth or bleeding from the ears.
At first, the bodies were buried in deep pits and covered with lime, but between September and November 1942, on the orders of Himmler, they were dug up and burned. In the spring of 1943, new gas chambers and crematoria were built to accommodate the numbers.
By mid 1944, the Final Solution had largely run its course. Those Jewish communities within easy reach of the Nazi regime had been largely exterminated, in proportions ranging from more than 90% in Poland to about 25% in France.
Prisoners were forced to march for tens of miles in the snow to train stations; then transported for days at a time without food or shelter in freight trains with open carriages; and forced to march again at the other end to the new camp. Those who lagged behind or fell were shot. Around 250,000 Jews died during these marches.
Out of 8-10 million jews in nazi controlled territory- 6 million perished.

Taken from en.wikipedia.org...

Israeli
The israeli palestinian conflict:
The Israeli–Palestinian conflict is the ongoing dispute between Israelis and Palestinians, an enduring and explosive conflict.[1] The conflict is wide-ranging, and the term is also used in reference to the earlier phases of the same conflict, between Jewish and Zionist yishuv and the majority Arab population living in Palestine under Ottoman or British rule.
It forms part of the wider, and generally earlier, Arab–Israeli conflict. The remaining key issues are: mutual recognition, borders, security, water rights, control of Jerusalem, Israeli settlements,[2] Palestinian freedom of movement[3] and legalities concerning refugees.
A hallmark of the conflict has been the level of violence witnessed for virtually its entire duration. Fighting has been conducted by regular armies, paramilitary groups, terror cells and individuals. Casualties have not been restricted to the military, with a large number of fatalities in civilian population on both sides.

Taken from en.wikipedia.org...

During the period prior to the declaration of israel jews from all over the world came to settle in israel, buying lands from the arabs and building cities.
At some points the palestinain neighbors of those settlements disapproved. I will not go to the politics of this, to avoid straying off the topic of genocide.
During that time and until the declaration of israel the jews and the palestinians were attacking and killing each other.
The UN then decided to divide palestine into two, giving the jews the lower half, which included mostly the uninhabited, barren lands of the desert, the jews accepted, and declared independence. A few hours later iraq, lebanon, syria, jordan and egypt attacked the new state of israel.
During the war the palestinians joined the arab armies and were fighting the israeli army, as a result palestinian villages were attacked and destroyed, the same went for jewish settlements who were wiped off the face of the earth by the arab army.
The war went on, and more and more palestinians chose to leave their homes as to not get caught in the battle. Some left out of fear of the jews, some left because they were promised swift victory by arab nations, some were thrown out of their homes, as the civilian population tended to take part in the fighting, or support the fighting in ways of intelligence, or other forms of aid, which led to jewish casualties.
During this war many civilians were killed by both armies, some as "collateral damage" and some by intentional massacres that occurred, by both the arab armies, and by small right wing extremists factions within the new-found israeli army.
At the end of the war israel had come out victorious, and many of the palestinians became homeless. Some returned to their homes and still exist today as arab israeli, others did not want to live under israeli rule, or had no homes to return to.
I would love the delve deeper into the history of israel, but as we're talking about genocide so I will move on to current events.
The situation of the palestinian people has led them to turn to violence instead of a diplomatic solution.
This in turn has led the israeli army to act against them. Again, no politics, let's talk genocide here-
Since the year 2000, 7000 palestinians (civilians and terrorists) out of 3.8 million in gaza and the west bank were killed by the israeli army, this includes children and women. that's 0.002% of palestinian population.
Reports of IDF brutality and murder rise all the time, some are result of mistakes, some of the actions of terrorists using civilians as human shields, some due to the complexity of an urban battle zone, and some are the actions of rogue soldiers. I say rogue because it is not allowed, and extremely rare.
No military objective has ever targeted civilians.

That's it. Thank you for reading.
With respect,
And hope that I wasn't too subjective,
Eliad.

God, I'm tired.. I thought this would take 20 minutes..
And it's taken 2 and a half hours or so... Hence all the typos..
It is now 7:25 am..

I just wanted to ask of everyone to avoid short comments.
If you have something to say be intelligent and supply you reasoning.
Also, please make sure to read the three posts as it would be very annoying to have to repeat myself because you're rushing to post your opinions.

And I would like to ask that everyone keep the discussion civil. This is a delicate matter, please demonstrate maturity.
I do realize I might be asking for too much.
But it's worth a shot.

Eliad.

[edit on 9-6-2010 by Eliad]

Lot of effort and well done...

I will read later but I hope you get the Mature Debate you are asking for..

I did see where you say the Israeli Goverment and Military are constantly critisised by the people/media. Guess its the same everywhere, they are no longer the voice of the people...

How is what Israel is doing any different though? They have already created the "ghetto" of Gaza, who knows if extermination is next.

Flagged...

Well done, nice and balanced way of analyzing it.

True there is no way Israel are as blatant as Nazi Germany, but then it is a different age and they have different motives. I think Israel's main objective was just to take the land, the Palestinians just got in the way. And would not roll over and just give up like expected.

I think most peoples opinion is that the Jewish people should be far more sympathetic to their cause considering what they themselves have been through.

reply to post by virgom129


I wouldn't go so far as to say that it has lost the support of the people. I merely stated that newspapers criticize the government, as they should, and this is wholly a matter of one's opinions, but all opinions get represented in israeli media.


[edit on 10-6-2010 by Eliad]

reply to post by Donnie Darko


Well, the first difference is that Israel did not create the Gaza strip, the Egyptians did, or more like contributed by not helping out their fellow Arabs.
What happened was that the Palestinian government was declared in Gaza towards the end of the war, and was aided by the Egyptians.
When the war ended not only did the Egyptians not allow the Palestinians anywhere near their countries, they left them stuck there! And while more and more refugees joined their government the Egyptians did nothing about it and let the Palestinians rot in their filth for years under Egyptian control. Egypt never annexed the Gaza Strip, but instead treated it as a controlled territory and administered it through a military governor.
Then in the six day war they just passed the problem to us.
By then it has become a major problem, it has become a refugee camp, and there was nothing we could do about it.

Now Jews on the other hand chose to live in ghettos, it was their community centers and where most of their communities stayed, no one forced the Jews to make ghettos, they were just secluded like that for many years, and they were happy with it.
The nazis just did not want the Jews to escape, so they closed the ghetto, and did not let the Jews escape to other countries.
That is entirely not the case with the Palestinian people, as they are allowed to leave the country freely, they were and to some extent still are allowed to work in Israel. That was stopped due to terror.
Also if you look at the Palestinians as a whole you might want to take a look at the west bank- although their government still suffers some corruption, they are growing with time, there is little to no violence, and in ten years I'm sure their cities will be on par with israeli cities.

I hope that clears that up.
Also a ghetto or refugee camp is not genocide, there is no connection between the two.

If you have ever read the Talmud, you will see why any rational human being wouldn't want to co-exist with these "people". My honest opinion is that I don't blame Hitler at all. If you want to live then start treating other people like human and not cattle. Yes, the "Jews" betrayed Germany and treated them like cattle, that is what they are doing to America today. The Khazars never learn. They wanted control of Germany so they killed their own people, caused the world to hate Germans for 60 years and brainwashed the country to accept Zionism. They will throw their own lower-class under the bus, I have a feeling they will do it again if they want control of Iran. Nuclear false flag?

[edit on 10-6-2010 by TSawyer]

Originally posted by TSawyer
If you have ever read the Talmud, you will see why any rational human being wouldn't want to co-exist with these "people". My honest opinion is that I don't blame Hitler at all. If you want to live then start treating other people like human and not cattle. Yes, the "Jews" betrayed Germany and treated them like cattle, that is what they are doing to America today. The Khazars never learn.

Hold on, it's not the Jewish people. I have several lovely friends who happen to be Jewish. Most Jews are peace loving people. It's some Israeli Jews and in particular, their leaders, who are wicked.

Originally posted by Donnie Darko

Originally posted by TSawyer
If you have ever read the Talmud, you will see why any rational human being wouldn't want to co-exist with these "people". My honest opinion is that I don't blame Hitler at all. If you want to live then start treating other people like human and not cattle. Yes, the "Jews" betrayed Germany and treated them like cattle, that is what they are doing to America today. The Khazars never learn.

Hold on, it's not the Jewish people. I have several lovely friends who happen to be Jewish. Most Jews are peace loving people. It's some Israeli Jews and in particular, their leaders, who are wicked.

What seems to be the case is that any "Jew" that gets in power behaves this way. Whether it was by genetic or universal design, this is the visible case. with only a few exceptions who end up dead or silenced.

German president Horst Köhler quits over Afghanistan gaffe

Germany's president, Horst Köhler, resigned without warning today, after intense criticism of remarks in which he suggested military deployments were central to the country's economic interests.
www.guardian.co.uk...

if not for war would Israel need all that American money?
without the confiscated land would Israel have enough resources to survive?

Israels attacks are reminiscent of the blitzkrieg in Poland
tanks against horses

". She would miss the former banker's advice over financial issues in particular, especially at a time of economic crisis.

darn bankers again sheesh.



[edit on 10-6-2010 by Danbones]

reply to post by thedeadtruth


Israel's agenda indeed was to get into the land of Israel, but that was first done with buying of lands, and later through diplomacy, it was the Palestinians, and Arab nations that did not agree.
Later on during the war villages were evacuated and attacked not for the purpose of deporting the Palestinians, but because the local population took part in the fighting, and held key strategic areas.
The same was done for Jewish villages- Whole villages were over-run, slaughtered, and erased off the face of the earth.
This was a time of war.

Also they were not expected to roll over and surrender, they were expected to agree to co-exist, those are two different things.
Imagine a situation where you have been attacked by the local population for years, while you were settling the land that you believed belonged to your fore fathers.
Would you expect these people to role over the minute you declare a state? Or to act even more violently?

Does this not sound more logical to you than the Israeli demons who stepped all over the poor Arab?
If so you need to understand that both sides were equals back then in most fields of life, and believing that the Palestinian people were a bunch of defenseless babies is disrespectful towards the Palestinian people.
With all due respect, if this subject interests you at all, go read more about it. You will find out that not all is black and white in this story.

All that being said it doesn't really matter what the agenda was, the important thing to note is that the end result is not even close to genocide.

Edit-
Oh yeah, and thank you for your reply.
With respect,
Eliad.

[edit on 10-6-2010 by Eliad]

reply to post by Eliad

here is a wicked people
Is Harvard Prof Advocating Palestinian Genocide?

This has to be seen to be believed.

Dr. Martin Kramer, a fellow at Harvard's National Security Studies Program, has posted a speech he delivered two weeks ago in Israel in which he urged solving the Palestinian refugee problem by population control i.e "stopping pro-natal subsidies to Palestinians with refugee status." In other words, starve the Palestinians so they don't have babies and, he seems to be saying, starving the babies so they don't grow up.

That will help reduce the terrorist threat by preventing Palestinian babies from becoming "superfluous young men." It is, Kramer says, those "superfluous young men" who become radicals.

watch the video

www.huffingtonpost.com...





[edit on 10-6-2010 by Danbones]

[edit on 10-6-2010 by Danbones]

reply to post by Donnie Darko

Originally posted by Donnie Darko
Hold on, it's not the Jewish people. I have several lovely friends who happen to be Jewish. Most Jews are peace loving people. It's some Israeli Jews and in particular, their leaders, who are wicked.

This is inaccurate.
Unless you have lived in this region some of your life, unless you've been with Israelis (Most of which are semi-atheist anyway by now..), unless you've seen for yourself what goes on here, you will never be able to fully comprehend the complexities of being an Israeli.
All of us have relatives, or friends of relatives, that have been hurt or killed, by terror or war.
All of us feel a strong connection to this land, and a sense that there is no other place in the world we can call home.
All of the people our age have not fought in the wars that gave Israel its independence, they weren't even alive.
Most of us have not been through the horror of the Holocaust, but all of us remember it well.

It is a complicated existence, and I invite you to Israel to see for yourself that Israelis are not as evil as you might think, they're human beings like everyone else.

The government is also not to be judged- Look at the west bank: Six years ago it was the center of Palestinian terror. From it came the intifada, and many terrorist attacks.
After the death of Yaser Arafat, things started to change, suddenly Israel had someone to talk to.
Now the west bank is flourishing, there is little to no terror, and while not everything is perfect, it's a start.
The Palestinian government over at the west bank control 98% of its territory and citizens, and its cities are turning more and more modern, and moderate.
I can attest to that as my girlfriend (which is an Israeli Arab), and her friends go clubbing in Ramallah from time to time.
In the future I hope things will get even better.

In Gaza on the other hand the Hamas uses its power to control the population with an iron fist, using methods seen only in the worst moments in human history, for example:

They also call for the destruction of the Israeli nation, and refuse to recognize it.
Needless to say the Israeli government is having a hard time dealing with these people.

Also it is well worth mentioning that the Israeli government is the initiator and driver of all peace talks between the two people, mostly at its own expense, for example- In the Oslo agreements we gave the PLO guns to govern itself, which they immediately turned against us in the intifada.
In 2005 Israel pulled all of it's settlers and forces out of Gaza, the result was that terrorist hamas used these territories not for building, but for launching attacks further into Israeli soil.

There are more examples, but given these facts, do you still think the Israeli government is that evil?
These are all facts by the way.
And surely this must make you at least reconsider your last statement.

again with HAMAS?

www.globalresearch.ca...

Let us not forget that it was Israel, which in fact created Hamas. According to Zeev Sternell, historian at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, "Israel thought that it was a smart ploy to push the Islamists against the Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO)".

The Hamas then launched a carefully timed campaign of attacks against civilians, one day before the meeting between Palestinian and Israeli negotiators, regarding the formal recognition of Israel by the National Palestinian Council. These events were largely instrumental in the formation of a Right wing Israeli government following the May 1996 elections.

Quite unexpectedly, Prime Minister Netanyahu ordered Sheik Ahmed Yassin to be released from prison ("on humanitarian grounds") where he was serving a life sentence. Meanwhile, Netanyahu, together with President Bill Clinton, was putting pressure on Arafat to control the Hamas. In fact, Netanyahu knew that he could rely, once more, on the Islamists to sabotage the Oslo accords. Worse still: after having expelled Yassin to Jordan, Prime Minister Netanyahu allowed him to return to Gaza, where he was welcomed triumphantly as a hero in October 1997.

Arafat was helpless in the face of these events. Moreover, because he had supported Saddam Hussein during the1991 Gulf war, (while the Hamas had cautiously abstained from taking sides), the Gulf states decided to cut off their financing of the Palestinian Authority.

reply to post by Danbones


My friend, you seem to have no idea what the word blitzkrieg means.
Blitzkrieg is an anglicized word describing all-mechanized force concentration of tanks, infantry, artillery and air power, concentrating overwhelming force and rapid speed to break through enemy lines, and once the latter is broken, proceeding without regard to its flank. (taken from wikipedia)
As for fighting horses with tanks, this is again hardly the case- Hamas is armed with low grade and high grade anti tank missiles, which are extremely effective in urban combat, also they are armed with guns, mortars, and explosives.
I have yet to see one horse in the Gaza strip.

Would you like to reconsider, or alter your statement?
I would agree that the Israeli army is superior, but Hamas is hardly armed with simple rocks and knives, they are well armed, well prepared, and do not care for civilian casualties.
In fact they encourage it, as it furthers their cause, by creating more dead, more hatred, and more PR. They themselves believe that death would get them to heaven, and have been known to hold civilians down at gun point with them in war zones, claiming that they will all get to heaven in death.

Things are not as simple as you wish them to be.

reply to post by Danbones

Originally posted by Danbones
here is a wicked people
Is Harvard Prof Advocating Palestinian Genocide?

This has to be seen to be believed.

Dr. Martin Kramer, a fellow at Harvard's National Security Studies Program, has posted a speech he delivered two weeks ago in Israel in which he urged solving the Palestinian refugee problem by population control i.e "stopping pro-natal subsidies to Palestinians with refugee status." In other words, starve the Palestinians so they don't have babies and, he seems to be saying, starving the babies so they don't grow up.

That will help reduce the terrorist threat by preventing Palestinian babies from becoming "superfluous young men." It is, Kramer says, those "superfluous young men" who become radicals.

This truly is a wicked man. I cannot agree more.
But he does not represent the people of Israel, or their opinions in any way.
Only the most far right wing extremists.

Originally posted by Danbones
again with HAMAS?

www.globalresearch.ca...

Let us not forget that it was Israel, which in fact created Hamas. According to Zeev Sternell, historian at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, "Israel thought that it was a smart ploy to push the Islamists against the Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO)".

I would need to do more researching on the subject, this is all new to me.

But none of this changes the fact that hamas still is a problem in Gaza, while the PLO, ever since Arafat died, has become a partner and a true neighbor, and has only gained more and more due to that.
Do you know that Israel gives the west bank tens of millions of dollars each month?
Did you know that the west bank is flourishing under control of Mahmud Abbas?
In the mean time what is going on under hamas rule in Gaza?
Do you realize that hamas is a big part of the problem?
Can you at least consider as much?

Thank you for the new info, I will look into it,
With best regards,
Eliad.

Please explain to me .....

How immigrating to a region, weather buying or stealing the land makes zero difference, then pronouncing to the world you are now forming a new country ,( without the consent of the people already living there ) is something any self respecting person would put up with.

Of course the Arabs said no. They had every right to and it was a majority decision.

I would say no if it happened in my country.

I dare you to name just one country or people in the world who would say "OK no worries " ?????