Who told the truth in the garden?

COME ON NOW FOLKS, lets get it together and snap back into reality! We are discussing a book that talks about talking snakes, a man made out of dust, a women made out of the dust-mans rib, an invisible man in the sky, and a magical fruit tree. And this is only a SMALL part of the absurd stories in this ancient book that also includes a violent monster of a God who throws temper tantrums killing innocent men women children and animals, while encouraging men to be mass-murders and war among others that disagree with them. The book was told by authors NOT there to WITNESS anything, edited by corrupt men afterward, grossly mistranslated, and altered. Not to mention, it consists of stories that all occurred in earlier times that were known to be MYTHS. Lets get it together folks!!

[edit on 18-4-2010 by SunIsSon]

Originally posted by SunIsSon
COME ON NOW FOLKS, lets get it together and snap back into reality! We are discussing a book that talks about talking snakes, a man made out of dust, a women made out of the dust-mans rib, an invisible man in the sky, and a magical fruit tree. And this is only a SMALL part of the absurd stories in this ancient book that also includes a violent monster of a God who throws temper tantrums killing innocent men women children and animals, while encouraging men to be mass-murders and war among others that disagree with them. The book was told by authors NOT there to WITNESS anything, edited by corrupt men afterward, grossly mistranslated, and altered. Not to mention, it consists of stories that all occurred in earlier times that were known to be MYTHS. Lets get it together folks!!

[edit on 18-4-2010 by SunIsSon]

Talking snake ? Have you seen -V- the series ? That could be your snake.

But the Fruit and opening eyes and discover they look diffrent and are naked, must go to intelligence or self awerness in some form.
(Maybe they stopped using fluoride )

Like the Adam's (Males) got a 'thing' and got real emberrast(?) and the Eve's (Females) relized they had a non-'thing' etc. They saw they where diffrent from eachother.

I'm not sure about the Original Sin etc. and how it came to be that the Adam and Eve could now reproduce by them selfs, rather than coming from 'God'..(I'm still unsure of who God is.)

Sounds stupid, but thats me...

[edit on 18/4/2010 by ChemBreather]

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by Sinter Klaas

I asked you to refute my own assertions because you seemed to be comfortable with Genesis and I figured you would turn to scripture itself to refute my interpretation. Not that I believe there is anything in Genesis that would do so, but that has never stopped anyone in the past from attempting to do so anyway.

Nice to hear my reaction was unexpected.
But I know what you mean. I'll try to avoid it but every know and again I am forced to reply. Usually with saying I think the bible is not a reliable source. To read a post full of religious texts to say I'm wrong... ehh well...

I realize my interpretation is not the norm in regards to the whole "fall from grace" and "expulsion" mythology. Here is what I would suggest to you; The God presented by those who argue that this myth is a cautionary tale warning against disobeying God seem to ignore many flaws with such an argument. A.) All of humanity now has no access to Paradise at the moment because of what Adam and Eve did then, so why should anyone care what God thinks about disobeying orders? B.) The God presented as first a loving and compassionate God and then suddenly a jealous and vengeful God presents a God with a sort neurosis. C.) The focus on punishment rather than the consequences to choices we make has become the interpretation most sold to the public.

Ahh yes. God seems to be the victim of a personality disorder.
I don't believe this the case.
1. Let us make a man in our image.
2. Now they are like us having knowledge of good and evil.
4. Adam and Eve were kicked out of Eden. Apparently so they could not also eat from the tree of life. An become immortal. Just as they are.
Why is this a problem ? My puny mind can only think of one thing and that's that they would eventually gain so much knowledge to become a thread.
5. ( the tower of Babel )

This is from The King James version from 1611.

11:4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower,
whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name,
lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
11:5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which
the children of men builded.

11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they
have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now
nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined
to do.
11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language,
that they may not understand one an other's speech.

11:8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face
of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

That to me says God scattered us because we are no longer bound by anything that keeps us from achieving the unimaginable.

They say let us go down and stop them.

And these are only from the book of genesis.

I would suggest to you that we should not be angry with Adam and Eve for thrusting upon us "this original sin", but understand that what they did was choose knowledge over comfort, and this is worthy of admiration. I would then suggest that by following my interpretation, God remains the loving and compassionate God who is not at all jealous, vengeful, nor neurotic, and the expulsion from the Garden was not punishment, it was just simply the consequence of choosing to eat the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Finally, I would suggest that if the focus was placed upon the adventure that followed for humanity rather than the perceived punishment from God, we would all be a little less neurotic and less inclined to punish each other. Just some thoughts.

Let me suggest that the whole concept of their sin doesn't make sense all together.
Christianity tells us that God is all knowing, wise and righteous. As well as omnipresent. Then God creates a situation where according to Christianity he knows what will be the resulting consequence.
Weird at least.

Then God who apparently split up Himself or talks just like the Queen of England, Wales, Scotland and all other territories that make up the common wealth ? And says "Let us create man in our image"
So without any doubt I say he knew the capacity of our brains.
So why aren't we not allowed to use them ?

So there you have it. Only the first book in the bible brings more then enough possible ways to kick the legs that are the fundament of Christianity to hell.

I do like this topic tho. Because I never stopped believing in God.
I only had to change my ideas on it. Religion is the source of all evil.
Ironically using the tool that is supposed to make you a good person.

However I believe most sin are nothing more then a human imperfection and the duality is non existing as it is presented to us.

I do feel and believe for sure that there is evil in the world. As a force, energy I don't know exactly but I talk from experience.

PS.
Felt like the right thing to do. Explain where I'm standing.
I must say that you can not take my word for it. It's only how I think about it. It could just as well be a whole lot of crap.

Originally posted by faceoff85

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by Alxandro


Ever wonder why the medical symbol includes snakes?

btw, why are you expecting God to fix the environment he created for, yet has been destroyed by, Man?

I always thought the intertwining snakes was a symbol for a strand of dna. Moses even used the snake symbol to bring healing. Remember that?

Why did god send a flood to fix things when man had messed things up?

Im curious to the explanation of that symbol although I believe I've heard it before..

but about the flood... it wasn't just man who screwed things up... the fallen angels in that time had taken women and bore kids... the herculesses or nephilims... they were men of renown anyway... but the bible describes those times as being quite bad... murder and rape were quite common... there was alot of godlesness. And if we were to take the book of enoch to be true man actually learned alot of forbidden techniques back then from those fallen angels... astrology, the cutting of herbs (drugs?), spells, the forging of weapons, making war and enoch even mentions make-up and similar atributes to be things god found detestable... quite an interesting book although i have doubts about its authenticity... you should also remember god gave those people a chance and 40 years time (wich probably had the oposite effect as us humans tend to think quite short-term) to escape the flood.

I have my opinion established quite well but I trust being here on ATS will keep me with 2 feet on the ground... in that since I am relying on my fellowposters...

[edit on 18-4-2010 by faceoff85]

I think it would do good for everyone to remember...the flood fix was a failure.

For there were still giants in those days after the flood.

God is waiting on us to step it up....we are to go on and to bigger and better things then to just chant about 'waiting on God' to 'save me'.

Step up and be the spiritual beings that you are...it is US that does the work...like it or not.

If your head is stuck in the repetitive history of man and Earth, then you are not ready to step it up. If you are sitting around waiting for your day of salvation, what light did you bring here for others?

We are one, there is no you or me without knowing ONE. This experience is not about a 'self' as you think it is....it is about the 'all' and you will only repeat this cycle of life in a body complex if you dont seek the purpose of the will to find the light within every single soul. Dont think for a moment that God is not doing this. Which makes it your purpose also.

The books are not going to show the divine will...things that are sacred must be understood, the pearls are not thrown out to the swine that would call such things foolishness. The true purpose of the divine will can be found within.

Its not about judgment...but learning, through reaping what you sow. The mercy is more then humans want to see, because we are so wrathful and prideful against the ones that we find to be lower then us. But we are equal, and all in due time will find their way.

Both paths are needed, the path that is and the path that is not. The lie and the truth provide equally a spectrum of discernment.

Instead of looking at the titles and names of God or Satan....look at the natures. You will find surprises that you may not be ready for or will choose to ignore because it will cause a complete shaking of the rug beneath your feet. It is like it is for a reason. The ones that accept blindly without discerning, is your masses of religions. The ones seeking the true nature of the deepest truest self....will see the fruit of the tree.

Its not a mistake we are here at all. We need this experience. And it is Gods intent that we are here. To think its all a mistake that has gotten blown way out of hand is a insult to what is Holy and Perfect.




[edit on 18-4-2010 by LeoVirgo]

I once read that the Hebrew word used in Genesis can be translated as the 'cupid' or the 'combiner'. The one that joins spirit and matter.

The forbidden fruit was a book.

It contained knowledge.

This knowledge has the ability to destroy us.

The serpent, or Lucifer, thought that we could handle the truth. So he gave us the book.

The time has come. We will either destroy ourselves with this knowledge, or use it for the benefit of mankind.

The knowledge of science.

There is a 99 percent chance that we will destroy ourselves. We are an aggressive species. We are so aggressive, we don't think twice about using the atomic bomb on OUR own people.

The Bible is a HUGE metaphor. Primitive people 2000 years ago could not fathom what they were seeing. So they used similes and metaphors to explain what they saw.

What did they see? The Elohim.

Elohim means = Those who came from the sky.

The Elohim made us in their image, after their likeness. We are just like them.

Can you see where I am going here?

reply to post by Hydroman


Ok this is a very interesting point, first obviously you must believe this actually happened or the entire debate becomes an exercise in pure futility.

I for one do believe what the bible says, this thread is not to debate that point but rather the ideology of Satan statement vs God's statement in the bible.

Genesis 2:16&17

16 The LORD God commanded the man. He said, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden. 17 But you must never eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil because when you eat from it, you will certainly die."

Genesis 3:1-7,19

1 The snake was more clever than all the wild animals the LORD God had made. He asked the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must never eat the fruit of any tree in the garden'?" 2 The woman answered the snake, "We're allowed to eat the fruit from any tree in the garden 3 except the tree in the middle of the garden. God said, 'You must never eat it or touch it. If you do, you will die!'" 4 "You certainly won't die!" the snake told the woman. 5 God knows that when you eat it your eyes will be opened. You'll be like God, knowing good and evil." 6 The woman saw that the tree had fruit that was good to eat, nice to look at, and desirable for making someone wise. So she took some of the fruit and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then their eyes were opened, and they both realized that they were naked. They sewed fig leaves together and made clothes for themselves.

19 By the sweat of your brow, you will produce food to eat until you return to the ground, because you were taken from it. You are dust, and you will return to dust."

Obviously refers to his death at a later time. (As a side point, Adam wasn't going to hell either, just back to the dust or non-existence)

Then
Genesis 5:5

Adam lived a total of 930 years; then he died.

Satan knew Eve(Adam) would not die instantly, so in a deceptive manner that was true "from a certain point of view", he could say what he did in a half lie, half truth.
God also did not say they would die instantly, later he even said you will live on doing different things and then die returning to the dust.

Also of note from God's perspective Adam & Eve did die within a day, but it was God time that is 1000 years.
1 Peter 3:8

But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

So Satan's twisting of the truth of what the actual end result would be equals a lie.
Satan lied, God told the truth.
This event is a warning to all, Satan is the master deceiver, he uses the same tactics today half-truths, missing information, out right lies. He has had thousands of years to practice on humans and he is very good at what he does.

Here is an example

A man is looking at woman who is screaming in anger at him so he stabs the woman with a sharp object, she passes out, he then cuts her with a knife and removes biological tissue from the woman. The woman awakes and is crying.

Has an evil act just happened, so we have been lead to believe. But critical information was left out to trick and deceive, it was also said in such a way to get an emotional response.

Here are some more facts, the woman is screaming at the man to give her something for the pain, the man is a doctor delivering a baby, the sharp object is a needle to put her to sleep, the knife is a scalpel, the cut is a c-section to remove the baby. The new mother awakes with tears of joys as she holds her healthy new baby.

If humans have the ability to trick and and deceive and lead people to the wrong conclusions through the manipulation of the facts, think what a super being like Satan can do.

A good example of this is using modern philosophy and science to make people think the bible is a fairy tale.



[edit on 18-4-2010 by Blue_Jay33]

Terrance McKenna told the troof.

reply to post by Hydroman


I am a theistic Satanist and member of the International Temple of Satan. We believe that Satan is the true god who is worthy of worship, and that Yahweh is a god that created humanity as a slave race. In the garden, Satan told Eve the truth - that her and Adam's eyes would be opened if they "partook of the fruit...." This represents knowledge of divinity: "they will become gods like us." As a worshiper of Satan, ones eyes are opened, and they progress towards awareness of their own divinity. Hail Satan!

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


The major problem I have with your response is the existence of the serpent/Satan. Why did God create Satan knowing all that he would cause? Why was a deceptive and evil creature created by God in the first place?

Can you please explain why the "Forbidden Tree of Knowledge" was created in the first place and why a snake was able to convince another one of God's creations to disobey him?

[edit on 20/4/2010 by Dark Ghost]

Genesis 2:16-17 "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

Neither lied.

On the day they ate the apple, they became mortal, and thus, subject to death.
Therefore, God's statement is accurate, as prior to eating the fruit, they could not die, but upon eating it, now they will now surely die.

Another thing to consider, the Bible wasn't exactly written in English you know...so it's hard to play semantics with it, with any degree of honesty.

Not saying I believe it either way, but just telling it how it is stated in the scripture...

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
reply to post by Blue_Jay33

 

The major problem I have with your response is the existence of the serpent/Satan. Why did God create Satan knowing all that he would cause? Why was a deceptive and evil creature created by God in the first place?

Can you please explain why the "Forbidden Tree of Knowledge" was created in the first place and why a snake was able to convince another one of God's creations to disobey him?

[edit on 20/4/2010 by Dark Ghost]

Satan was not created evil, God created a perfect good being with free will, that Angel sinned abusing his free will, when he did he became Satan the Devil and evil, and the leader of all those who choose to rebel against God. God allowed this, he never created it. His creation is not robotic in nature.

The "tree of knowledge" was a simple test, God was expressing his rightful sovereignty, basically he was saying do you honor and respect my sovereignty over this planet? Adam & Eve didn't, by there actions.
That allowed Satan to mock God and say nobody will respect your sovereignty. God's response was to give humanity thousands of years to disprove Satan's claim.

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
Satan was not created evil, God created a perfect good being with free will, that Angel sinned abusing his free will, when he did he became Satan the Devil and evil, and the leader of all those who choose to rebel against God. God allowed this, he never created it. His creation is not robotic in nature.

The "tree of knowledge" was a simple test, God was expressing his rightful sovereignty, basically he was saying do you honor and respect my sovereignty over this planet? Adam & Eve didn't, by there actions.
That allowed Satan to mock God and say nobody will respect your sovereignty. God's response was to give humanity thousands of years to disprove Satan's claim.

But then giving Free Will to his creations was a bad mistake. Allowing one of his fallen Angels to then lead many others down the wrong path is an even worse mistake. Would you agree that maybe Satan has grown beyond God's ability to control him? How can a just and righteous God allow such a being to continue to live and corrupt others?

Why does an omni-(everything) God need to test his creations? If everything derived from Him then he would know all the possible consequences of actions done by His creations. In fact, he created that tree knowing that Adam and Eve would eat from it. If He did not know this, then he cannot be all-knowing. Free Will is given, but God knows the decision we will make. Allowing us to be born and commit sin comes down to Negligence on His part.

[edit on 21/4/2010 by Dark Ghost]

Originally posted by Blueracer
I'm not sure what you're saying but Adam and Eve are dead. Looks like God was right.

simple isnt it?

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
Why did God create Satan knowing all that he would cause? Why was a deceptive and evil creature created by God in the first place?

satan wasnt created evil (ezekial 28:11-19)

satan turned evil because of a desire he let grow in his heart. (james 1:14-15)

god created us with freewill. logically, he didnt just want automation from us. inherit in that design is the possibility that freewill would be used in making some not-so-wise decisions.

Can you please explain why the "Forbidden Tree of Knowledge" was created in the first place

obviously god was giving them the ability to exercise their freewill if they so chose.

was it unfair? no, the had plenty of food in the garden.

was it difficult? no, just stay away from the tree.

however, if they so chose to rebel they had that ability to express it by a simple act.

and why a snake was able to convince another one of God's creations to disobey him?

the serpent used deception, something that wasnt used before, to invoke desire. adam and eve had everythign they couldve wanted, or needed. satan made them feel like something was lacking.

note - eve could have talked to god about what the serpent had told her. im sure the conversation would have ben very enlightening, but she chose to "lean upon" her own understanding (prov 3:5) and eat the fruit.

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
But then giving Free Will to his creations was a bad mistake. Allowing one of his fallen Angels to then lead many others down the wrong path is an even worse mistake. Would you agree that maybe Satan has grown beyond God's ability to control him? How can a just and righteous God allow such a being to continue to live and corrupt others?

because there was an issue raised.

was god holding back? could man do a better job of setting his own morals?

the angels were watching this. logically they might have had doubts. as such god allowed the issues raised to play out thus answering once for all time.

after 6000 years of corruption, war, pestilence, and pain, do you think man is doing a good job?

Why does an omni-(everything) God need to test his creations? If everything derived from Him then he would know all the possible consequences of actions done by His creations. In fact, he created that tree knowing that Adam and Eve would eat from it. If He did not know this, then he cannot be all-knowing. Free Will is given, but God knows the decision we will make. Allowing us to be born and commit sin comes down to Negligence on His part.

no, it comes down to love. love because he lets us decide. him knowing our choice before we make it doesnt change the fact that its our choice.

Originally posted by miriam0566
satan wasnt created evil (ezekial 28:11-19)

satan turned evil because of a desire he let grow in his heart. (james 1:14-15)

Where do these concepts of evil and desire come from?

god created us with freewill. logically, he didnt just want automation from us. inherit in that design is the possibility that freewill would be used in making some not-so-wise decisions.

Why the need to judge us then? Why judge a creation of your own that has not been given the same power and capabilities as the creator?

obviously god was giving them the ability to exercise their freewill if they so chose.

was it unfair? no, the had plenty of food in the garden.

was it difficult? no, just stay away from the tree.

however, if they so chose to rebel they had that ability to express it by a simple act.

It seems God created a perfect world. Everyone and everything was happy and working out for everyone. God then creates an opportunity for His creations to turn away from him. They take the opportunity and this angers Him.

the serpent used deception, something that wasnt used before, to invoke desire. adam and eve had everythign they couldve wanted, or needed. satan made them feel like something was lacking.

Just like desire and evil, deception has to have come from somewhere. Where did these phenomena come from? The snake was only able to use desire because he was created by God. What does that tell us?

note - eve could have talked to god about what the serpent had told her. im sure the conversation would have ben very enlightening, but she chose to "lean upon" her own understanding (prov 3:5) and eat the fruit.

I agree that's what she should have done. However, this does suggest that God made a grave error in giving Free Will to his creations. People use the "we are not robots" (my wording, not yours) argument, but in truth God wants us to be like robots that love Him and follow His laws. He wants us to choose his Way and only his Way or he will not love and protect us. It sounds to me that God truly does desire obedient robots.

[edit on 21/4/2010 by Dark Ghost]

reply to post by Dark Ghost


all great questions, and i will get to them i promise, but i have to get ready to go.

Originally posted by miriam0566
reply to post by Dark Ghost

 

all great questions, and i will get to them i promise, but i have to get ready to go.

Thank you. It really is a pleasure to be able to ask these questions without being given negative labels. Whether one does or does not believe in a God, the issue of Creation and how everything began can be of interest to every person. I look forward to your replies when you find the time.

reply to post by miriam0566


Hello miriam,

If there was a 'perfect garden' surely this was not a place where we were a creation without a purpose. Were we as pets to a higher power?

Plus we see later more confussion when God in the OT assures us....that God creates peace and makes evil, creates light and makes darkness (paraphrase so forgive). This leads back to the idea that Satan, what ever this Satan is (a worker for God? that brings the purpose of our present experience), has no real blame that can be placed upon it.

For things of not of God to of been present, then we are already seeing a place that was 'not' all perfect and 'not' all good. Which was the 'tree' since it held within it a 'possibly' very very dark purpose. This darkness, the possibility of it being there, shows all things, manifest from ONE true source, which is God.

When there is understanding of 'why the purpose', 'why the mistake'....then one see's that....because it was meant to be this way. There are no mistakes, it all serves Gods plan. It is, all perfect, without shame on man or God.

All things serve a purpose for the Divine Will. The moment we embrace them all, is when we can understand why it is so.

We might not see 'perfection' with what has happened, what is happening, and what will come. But God does!

What ever state our world is in this very moment....is obviously needed. Somewhere within our diseases, our crimes, and corruptions....there is purpose. And to think that its not serving help to us that we cant see in this moment, or bringing us experiences that are catalysts to make us see with a different eye, a reaping that has been sown ect....is something I just cant see or understand.

My rule of thumb I guess is...God has to be perfect. It Thee was not perfection in its highest form....it is nor would be 'God'. So to assume we see something happen that was a mistake or not part of the plan or was not absolutely necessary in Gods plan....assumes imperfection in the plan/manifestation/creation/emanation.