The Utter Insanity of Pro-Choice

Originally posted by andy1033
reply to post by PennyQ

 

How about the mans right to decide that he does not want to bring someone into this rotten world?

Things are more complicated.

Males should have the right to make a women abort, if he wants to if abortion is legal.

Males should have the right to decide.

I don't think anyone should have the right to make a decision for anyone else...

However I do think that the male should voice his opinion regarding the matter, and if he decides to choose abortion, but the female decides to have the baby anyway, then he should be freed of any financial aid payments he would otherwise be forced to pay.

If the woman decides to abort but the male does not, then the male should be able to receive legal justice; it is also his child, and I don't know about other males, but if I wanted to keep my child and my partner aborted anyways, it would feel like murder to me.

And that's a damage.

[edit on 14/4/1010 by Monts]

Originally posted by andy1033

*Snip*

Males should have the right to make a women abort, if he wants to if abortion is legal.

Males should have the right to decide.

Wow. Did I just wake up in the 16th century?

What is going on with your post here?

I understand you are arguing some sort of equal rights, but it just went off the deep end...



[edit on 14-4-2010 by LadySkadi]

Everyone makes excellent points in favor of the virtues of their particular view on the subject. The question as I understand it is why does only the mother get a choice in pregnancy termination (while the father has no say). I've got a rationalist answer: mother-embryo can be viewed as a host-parasite relationship in a physiological sense - from that perspective, how or why would it require anyone else's consent? Flame on.

gj

Originally posted by ganjoa
Everyone makes excellent points in favor of the virtues of their particular view on the subject. The question as I understand it is why does only the mother get a choice in pregnancy termination (while the father has no say). I've got a rationalist answer: mother-embryo can be viewed as a host-parasite relationship in a physiological sense - from that perspective, how or why would it require anyone else's consent? Flame on.

gj

Agreed. This was kind of along the lines that I was thinking. The female has a vested physical interest in the baby. The male has only an emotional interest in the baby. If a female chooses to abort, that is her right and her decision, regardless of the father's thoughts on the matter. If the father does not approve, he has every right to leave her and find someone that will raise his seed.

If the father, however, did not want the child, but the mother insists on carrying it, the father should also have the right to divest himself of any interest in the child. In the past, this was done by simply walking away. Nowadays, it needs to be handled in a differant manner to avoid child support.

That would be a fair and balanced arrangement. Women get the right to abort and men get the right to have no financial obligations to the child.

How about the utter insanity of indiscriminate breeding?
Now that would end the abortion debate, just STOP thinking with animal instincts and use some consciousness. That would be SUPER DUPER!

As a man, I don't have a problem with a woman having total control over her body and therefore making the choice to keep or to abort.

That said, what's good for the goose, and therefore she should not be able to force a man to support the child if she wants to keep it and he doesn't want it.

Yes I agree on the last few posts.

If their is any form of equality to be found it will be this.
We all feel good by being able to make our own choiches whatever the cirumstance may be that's why we convert those feelings in to rights. The term "right" I do not vieuw differently then that. Whatever the term may mean to others. Rights are feelings that everybody feels good about. With that said....

Pure basic.

Women have the right over their own lives.
Men have the right over their own lives.

Context at hand.

Women have the right to abort.
Men have the right to relinquish obligation.

Above said is very basic, but could very well serve as the framework for future law or simple vieuw point reference/ philosophical standpoint.

When conceiving you both know what you are doing or... what risk you are taking at that point you both collaborate. Your making the choiche together knowingly. Not only the consequence of the child to be, but also above stated rights. The ideal circumstance would be that both people would be responsible and stable and willing to embrace the coming child from inpregnation til birth and beyond with open arms. Alas things do not always turn out that way. People make choiches in live. People underestimate, fear, deceive ( mostly themselves ) ect. How great the ramifications may be... in the scheme of things it is just another step. For these by us perceived missteps their is no better remedy then equality. It cancels out abuse. Because remember everyone is responsible for themselves.

Now it could be said that this is unfair. To the mother, to the father, to the child in the eyes of god for that matter. But on that note do you know what is unfair? Forcing yourself, being forced or forcing others.
Their can not be any greater sorrow, pain, missery and/or more destructive circumstances then that what is brought forth by force.

And for those who suffer by the choiches that are made by the others. How have you forced yourself knowing full well that the other just as yourself is in full control of his or herself. And you do not have any control over the other how convincingly it may seem so.

Ny imput.

Originally posted by leo123
As a man, I don't have a problem with a woman having total control over her body and therefore making the choice to keep or to abort.

That said, what's good for the goose, and therefore she should not be able to force a man to support the child if she wants to keep it and he doesn't want it.

Child support laws are out dated... With women heavily in the work force and becoming just as successful as males, there is really no need.

A lot of women end up in another relationship anyways. They get support from themselves, their new partner, and the baby's daddy.

Some women use this as a way to "cheat the system"... They get knocked up and leave the man helpless with a bill for 18 years on purpose, sometimes with multiple men and children.

There should be a basis of income in which a female could file for support because of not being able to support herself and the child. Just because a woman forgot to take her pill that day or the condom broke shouldn't restrain both parties, the woman and the man both have opportunity to not have the child or give it to parents who would be able to take care of it. Just because the woman wants to keep it, it shouldn't effect the man.

Though I do completely agree that society should look down on either gender that acts irresponsibly and doesn't do what is morally right. Just the legal system shouldn't infringe on either side's rights.

Maybe teach a little personal responsibility...

Originally posted by andy1033
reply to post by PennyQ

 

How about the mans right to decide that he does not want to bring someone into this rotten world?

Things are more complicated.

Males should have the right to make a women abort, if he wants to if abortion is legal.

Males should have the right to decide.

Men DO have that choice, arent you so glad to find this out? And it is not complicated at all, it is easy and simple!

If you as a man do not want to bring life into this cruel world, DONT put your SEED into a woman. Period.

Thats an easy noncomplicated solution!

And men do have the right to DECIDE....most of them decide to spill that seed anyway right into a woman, and BAM. The choice has been made, your part in the decision making is OVER.

It will be over my dead body that a man ever decides what I will do with MY REPRODUCTIVE system.

Originally posted by Monts

Originally posted by hotbakedtater
I'll tell you what bothers me.

Men whining about pro choice issues.

Here is my opinion as a woman, and it is short and sweet.

The time for a man's CHOICE is when he CHOOSES to place his seed inside a woman.

By exercising his CHOICE he is living with the consequences of said choice, of which there are 2.

The woman has a baby from the union he CHOSE or the woman doesn't have a baby from the union he CHOSE.

Simple and no bother at all.

I don't think that's a very balanced point of view... its not only the male that chooses the union, it is the woman as well. If the woman CHOSE not to have the union, then the whole situation would be void.

It is called a union for a reason: all decisions that arise from it should be done in union, just as the original act itself. By choosing to have the union, both participants should be able to have their say in the results from the union that they BOTH agreed to share.

If you believe that the only time the man has a choice is at the moment of the union, then it would only be fair that the woman has the choice at the same moment also.

What if both parents originally wanted the child, but after a few months of pregnancy, the woman decided otherwise and had an abortion?

Men just aren't walking sperm banks... they can share just as much responsibility and emotional connection to their child as their mother.

Only fair? Pardon me while I laugh.

I as a woman retain the right to choose AFTER the act because my part in the process (if I get knocked up) is not over after seed has been spilled.

This a man has but ONE CHOICE, to spill inside a woman or not.

The woman has more choices.

To allow spillage inside her.

To use birth control to prevent unwanted pregnancy.

Celibacy.

Abortion.

Live Birth none months later.

None of these choices need a man to be made.

But most of all, my body my choice.

I am unwavering on this issue.

The emotional issues people who are for mens rights in abortion use are not an issue in the bottom line. If a woman wants to abort, her body her choice.

Originally posted by Monts

However I do think that the male should voice his opinion regarding the matter, and if he decides to choose abortion, but the female decides to have the baby anyway, then he should be freed of any financial aid payments he would otherwise be forced to pay.

If the woman decides to abort but the male does not, then the male should be able to receive legal justice; it is also his child, and I don't know about other males, but if I wanted to keep my child and my partner aborted anyways, it would feel like murder to me.

And that's a damage.

[edit on 14/4/1010 by Monts]

I dont mean to keep quoting you, but I have to respond to this too.

Point one.

Invalid, because a man cannot choose abortion. He has one choice in the baby making process, and that is spill seed inside a woman or not. This he is in NO WAY being forced into suporting a baby he did not, for men who do not want children do not spill their seed inside places where babies can be made.

Point 2.

Invalid. There is no damages if a woman chooses to abort, because you as a man have already made your only choice in the matter of female reproduction organs. The rest of the choices belong to her alone.

I hope you dont think I am picking on you, but you brought up several points I wanted to address.

Originally posted by ClinTrojan


Some women use this as a way to "cheat the system"... They get knocked up and leave the man helpless with a bill for 18 years on purpose, sometimes with multiple men and children.


Maybe teach a little personal responsibility...

Helpless? Men? Do you mean they were helpless to refrain from having sex? Because unless the man is raped, he is 100 percent responsible for where his seed spills.

Men who feel a woman can in any way "trap" them with children need to be taught a little personal responsibility in my opinion.

This has been one of my main arguing points against pro-choice people. did the baby just magically get in her womb? are women able to impregnate themselves?

Does the 'fetus' in the womb only have the mothers genes?

it takes TWO to create a LIFE.....im just surprised pro-choice people dont understand this.

women make the argument...its my body so i can do what i want.

thats right...it IS your body...but the child is not a part of YOUR body...it has its on DNA. it has its own genes.....the DNA is not identical to your own.....it is UNIQUE in of itself!

so it is absolutely not a part of your body...what so ever.

so that makes the entire argument of 'its my body i can do what i want' bullcrap BUNK.

furthermore what if the fetus is a male?

a male cant be a part of a female body.

i AM pro-choice.....i support the right for women to close there legs. IF you have to open them up.....use protection.

dont give me that bullcrap about condoms fail(only a few percentage fail rate)....you also have birth control you can use in conjunction with condoms.

its like the stupid scientists looking for a way to cure HIV...i got a idea...USE PROTECTION.

the whole debate about abortion should be a non-issue....IF WOMEN WOULD USE BIRTH CONTROL AND CONDOMS.

its that simple.....but you wont......you got to have the feeling of 'skin on skin' what ever gets you off....no matter the repurcusions.

WELL TOO BAD....you had the CHOICE to open your legs(unless you were raped).

you had the CHOICE to have the guy wear a condom.

you had the CHOICE to not use birth control KNOWING the guy was not wearing a condom.

BUT in my opinion...the moment a life is created inside you....YOU NO LONGER HAVE A CHOICE. because your BODY is no longer YOURS.

unless you have a medical problem or were raped...which i may add is less then 5% of ALL abortions then you have no choice...because you CHOSE not to exercise the REST of your CHOICES.

its that simple.

by the way...i am 18 years old....i can understand this...why cant people twice my age with such 'wisdom' of the world understand this.....its pure insanity!

I would bet money that the pro abortionist people here and elsewhere would be screaming from the roof tops if we found a few cells replicating on another planet, that extraterrestrial life is now fact. But since the cells here are inside a sentient host, the pro abrtionists want to deny that classification here on Earth. And since there are about 6 billion people already alive, whose mothers chose life, I guess killing a few won't matter.
I am decidedly anti, and give no excuse other than it's cold blooded murder. And to confound some further, I am unapologetically pro capital punishment. The difference is one had a choice, the other gets none.
If you really want to make abotion right, try doing this, whichever parent, or both, wants the abortion, abort them too.
Wanna screw with a pro abortionist? Ask if it would be moral if we used abortion as animal birth control. The argument is almost always about the poor animal had no choi.... er, when did we learn to speak "Zygote-ese"?
And ask that doomed collection of cells what its preference was?

reply to post by hotbakedtater


So are you saying, that if me and my partner where to decide to try and have a child, were successful in getting pregnant, but in the end my partner decided to have an abortion, I should just suck it up?

What about my feelings for the child? What if I wanted the child which my partner decided to abort?

You seem to be making your points in assumption that the way the father feels is absolutely pointless in determining the decision to be made. I even feel that you seem to think that men in general don't have a care at all for their unborn children... until it breathes its first breath you remain a walking sperm bank and nothing more.

If men had power to force abortions even if the mother wanted to have the baby, how would the emotions and feelings of loss be any different to them?

All I will say on this topic is that personally, I'd rather not be born than be born to parents that didn't want me or couldn't provide properly for me.

There is no body of evidence to support the contention that life in and of itself is an absolue good. Clearly, for many it is a nightmare.

reply to post by andy1033


The man does not get to make the woman have an abortion.

If the father of the child does not want the child and the mother does then they both need to get a lawyer. Their lawyers should come to some agreement and write up some paperwork saying that since the the mother blatantly wants the child and the father does not then the mother has no right to demand any type of child support. This will quickly determine whether the woman wants the child because she wants the child or because she wants to milk the father for child support.

In return he cannot demand to see his child or take her to trial over custody later down the road. He would have the option of asking the mother of the child but cannot do nothing legally as he is giving up his rights to the child, a child he didn't want anything to do with anyways.

A man should never be allowed to make the decision about abortion for the mother.

The above scenario is just something I thought up. Others might find it rubbish by find it actually to be kind of fair. Both parties I believe would be safe for any legal ramifications.

Now, how you want to handle a woman that wants to have an abortion and the father who wants to keep it, that is a little trickier due to courts a lot of the time siding with the woman.

Originally posted by DEMONcrats

so it is absolutely not a part of your body...what so ever.

I agree with your statement of fact - a fetus is a parasite.

so that makes the entire argument of 'its my body i can do what i want' bullcrap BUNK.

An opinion based on an observation of a fact not evidenced by your prior statement.

BUT in my opinion...the moment a life is created inside you....YOU NO LONGER HAVE A CHOICE. because your BODY is no longer YOURS.

Well stated and properly identified as your opinion. Illogical.
See Descartes. Thanks for posting.

gj

Another pro-abortion argument is that the 'fetus' is not alive.

i dont understand this....the 'fetus' is growing everyday...the moment of conception the blueprint of its DNA....how its fingers will look..what color its eyes will be......everything that makes a human...human is decided at conception.

so there is no doubt that a 'fetus' is a HUMAN. it has our DNA......ITS HUMAN.

in 18 days there is a heartbeat...how people can support abortion is beyond me.

and many people are so callous about it as well....like they just dont care about the unborn.

we have become nothing but animals.....somebody should go back in time and tell darwin and margerate sanger that they succeded....they are getting there eugenic utopia one abortion at a time.