Democratic Socialism Works & People Are Happy About It!

reply to post by GTasker


The problem is a simple one, if I feed you today you will expect to be feed tomorrow, but if I teach you to fish today you will be able to fish and feed yourself tomorrow. The US is guilty of this as well, constantly handing out, instead of investing in the future of an individual. We lack the can do attitudes because why bother if there going to feed me any way. We have lost the self reliance, self education to better ones self, instead we have this tude that it is our right to sit on our ass and get feed, housed and what not without making self sacrifice to better ones self. And that is the problem with any society that feeds instead of teaching one to feed.

Originally posted by drmeola
reply to post by GTasker

 

Just to answer your questions, right or wrong you have the right to call a black person the N word. You might start a fight and get your butt kicked but you do have the right to do so. Hell if you know blacks and hang with them like I do you will hear them calling each other that all the time, so really it comes down to not the word but in how the word itself is used. Example if I walk up to my friends and say hey what’s up N word, they might respond with some thing like not much honky. But you yell out to some one aggressively calling them a stupid N word, expect a fight. But ether way it is not against the law. For by definition the N word simple means one of ignorance and can apply to any one. The word Negro, is a direct reference to one of color.

...So can I.

Originally posted by drmeola
reply to post by GTasker

 

The problem is a simple one, if I feed you today you will expect to be feed tomorrow, but if I teach you to fish today you will be able to fish and feed yourself tomorrow. The US is guilty of this as well, constantly handing out, instead of investing in the future of an individual. We lack the can do attitudes because why bother if there going to feed me any way. We have lost the self reliance, self education to better ones self, instead we have this tude that it is our right to sit on our ass and get feed, housed and what not without making self sacrifice to better ones self. And that is the problem with any society that feeds instead of teaching one to feed.

You seem to be confusing 'minimum standards' of certain things (people certainly don't get rich off of benefits and handouts) with a fantastic life. Plenty of people (read: almost all) are willing to get up and help themselves. Believe me, greed and consumerism are not much less prevalent here than in the US. You think we don't have rich people in the UK? You think we don't have self made businessmen and etc? Because we do. But if a person does fall on hard times, they get the support and help they need from society to make sure they can get back up again in one piece. Your self-sufficient paradise isn't going to happen, because not everybody has the levels of initiative to make something of themselves beyond a low skilled, low payed job. I (and most of my fellow Brits, and probably Europeans too) don't want to see a society run only by those that managed to fight their way to the top, lording themselves over all those they squashed on their way up.

Also, a little something for you Americans to think about. Not too sure who wrote it to begin with:

This morning I was awoken by my alarm clock, powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the US Department of Energy. I then took a shower in the clean water provided by the municipal water utility. After that, I turned on the TV to one of the FCC regulated channels to see what the National Weather Service of the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration determined the weather was going to be like using satellites designed, built, and launched by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. I watch this while eating my breakfast of US Department of Agriculture inspected food and taking the drugs which have been determined as safe by the Food and Drug Administration.

At the appropriate time as regulated by the US Congress, and kept accurate by the National Institute of Standards and Technology and the US Naval Observatory, I get into my National Highway Traffic Safety Administration approved automobile and set out to work on the roads built by the local, state, and federal Departments of Transportation, possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the Environmental Protection Agency, using legal tender issued by the Federal Reserve Bank. On the way out the door, I deposit any mail I have to be sent out via the US Postal Service and drop the kids off at the public school.

After work, I drive my NHTSA bar back home on DOT roads, to a house which has not burned down in my absence because of the state and local building codes and Fire Marshal’s inspection, and which has not been plundered of all its valuables thanks to the local police department.

I then log on to the internet which was developed by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Administration and post of FreeRepublic.com and Fox News forums about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD because the government can’t do anything right.


I'd rather have the government running things than Corporations. The government is run (more or less) by the people. Corporations are run by money and hunger for profit.

reply to post by GTasker


I agree with you to a point, and almost all maybe true in your area, in mine it is not. At some point a help up becomes a hand out, we have generations of losers on welfare not having to work at all just stay pregnant un married and they get everything housing food utilities and even cash for the things there food card doesn’t pay for it has become a way of life. Hard times yes that’s what unemployment is for, if you didn’t work to earn a living to begin with then you shouldn’t get anything. And who is to set this standard of living as you call it. Low skilled and low paying jobs are still people who work in some form and earn some sort of living. If they wish for a better living then get better educated and I have no problem in educating any person whom wish to better themselves free of charge, because than can only help create a better society all around. And to comment on your fight to the top lording over others, again that must be in your area, because here it is not that way until you become part of the 5 percent elite then there might be some lording going on but in normal situations this is not the case. Everyone is either an employee or and employer, and that is up to the individual, you rather work for some one that is great, get your pay, and I believe in the pay equal to the job. But if you love your job, then start taking courses to better yourself in that job and maybe one day if so choose to do so open your own business and become the employer. But those whom chose not to be a contributor in society and live of the so called hand out system are nothing more than leeches sucking the very life force out from the whole. So again I say no more hand outs, if a person is truly a part of a community and was once a provider to the community the community will take care of its own period. But if you’re nothing more than a useless leech the community will shun you and leave you to starve, and I believe this is how it should be. Not the government handing me out money from the working force to the leeches, but the community that you have proven yourself to will be the ones to help you that is what churches and charity are for, not the so called government. Tell me where I am wrong, I bet you could not. But I will digress I do not know your area, and as the same your do not know mine. But my statement of teaching them to fish for themselves though worded differently comes from the bible the true words of God. A lesson that some people have seem to forgotten.

reply to post by GTasker


I love that, I could spend and easy hour of lecture explaining all that is right and wrong with it, but first we must separate and differentiate between the Federal government and the local. They are mixed together in this article, but I will say if you really pick it apart you will find it very humorous, and even realize how once separated the local is great the federal is the failure. Local government can accomplish everything listed, and do it better and at a lesser cost.

The police did not protect the property why they were gone, endless they had a private police force parked in there living room, it was the people in the neighbor hood that kept there property in good condition and keeping out the undesirable leeches of society that keeps your home safe. As far as regulators they are controlled by federal government primarily, and think have you ever gone to and historic district and see wooden houses hundreds of years old and still standing tall even after countless storms even a fire, but today with all the regulation a house catches on fire and what happens, it burns down period, or not even a fire how many hurricanes and storms have taken down even the most expensive of houses. Yet the historic ones still stand tall. So with that in mind what good did the regulators really do, they lowered the standards to a point that now they have to build it back up. If you look at the standards of housing from hundred years ago, and compare them today you will see that the new regulations are only now starting to approach what it once was.

Well like I said I could easily do and hour lecture on this one. But I hope I have pointed out just some of the problems with the statement.

Originally posted by drmeola
reply to post by GTasker

 

I agree with you to a point, and almost all maybe true in your area, in mine it is not. At some point a help up becomes a hand out, we have generations of losers on welfare not having to work at all just stay pregnant un married and they get everything housing food utilities and even cash for the things there food card doesn’t pay for it has become a way of life. Hard times yes that’s what unemployment is for, if you didn’t work to earn a living to begin with then you shouldn’t get anything. And who is to set this standard of living as you call it. Low skilled and low paying jobs are still people who work in some form and earn some sort of living. If they wish for a better living then get better educated and I have no problem in educating any person whom wish to better themselves free of charge, because than can only help create a better society all around. And to comment on your fight to the top lording over others, again that must be in your area, because here it is not that way until you become part of the 5 percent elite then there might be some lording going on but in normal situations this is not the case. Everyone is either an employee or and employer, and that is up to the individual, you rather work for some one that is great, get your pay, and I believe in the pay equal to the job. But if you love your job, then start taking courses to better yourself in that job and maybe one day if so choose to do so open your own business and become the employer. But those whom chose not to be a contributor in society and live of the so called hand out system are nothing more than leeches sucking the very life force out from the whole. So again I say no more hand outs, if a person is truly a part of a community and was once a provider to the community the community will take care of its own period. But if you’re nothing more than a useless leech the community will shun you and leave you to starve, and I believe this is how it should be. Not the government handing me out money from the working force to the leeches, but the community that you have proven yourself to will be the ones to help you that is what churches and charity are for, not the so called government. Tell me where I am wrong, I bet you could not. But I will digress I do not know your area, and as the same your do not know mine. But my statement of teaching them to fish for themselves though worded differently comes from the bible the true words of God. A lesson that some people have seem to forgotten.

-So do we, to an extent. A very limited extent, no matter what the Daily Mail says That's why I want reform of the system, not a destruction of the system itself.
-Unemployment benefits can be abused incredibly easily.
-Not everybody is educatable. For some people, school just doesn't work for them. It tries to hammer you into the same mould, instead of accurately assessing where each student is.
-Humanity > Economics. A person should never be left to starve by the Community. Ever.
-What about someone who volunteers for a charity, but doesn't hold down a 'proper' job. They don't get paid. Now what?
-I don't believe tha charity can help everybody who needs help. In fact, we know they can't: that's why we have to have mandatory programs in the first place.
-You're a Christian, and you're saying things like 'they should be left to starve'? I think you should go back and pay a bit more attention to what Jesus is saying.

The statistics speak for themselves, the social democracies (specifically those in Scandinavia, which I view as a perfect system, although they're not doing too badly anywhere else either) are better for society as a whole, and also better for the individual. Your free market paradise is even more unrealistic than Marxism. Go for the next best thing.

Originally posted by drmeola
reply to post by GTasker

 

I love that, I could spend and easy hour of lecture explaining all that is right and wrong with it, but first we must separate and differentiate between the Federal government and the local. They are mixed together in this article, but I will say if you really pick it apart you will find it very humorous, and even realize how once separated the local is great the federal is the failure. Local government can accomplish everything listed, and do it better and at a lesser cost.

What's your point? I'm finding it hard to find where you're disagreeing with me. So we both agree that government intervention is good? Fantastic! Considering your states in the US are the size of small countries (many of them bigger than Scandinavian countries) I see no problem with them managing things. The problem is with the people who say that Government can't run anything, and it should be left to Private Enterprise, which is a ridiculous idea in many cases.

The police did not protect the property why they were gone, endless they had a private police force parked in there living room, it was the people in the neighbor hood that kept there property in good condition and keeping out the undesirable leeches of society that keeps your home safe.

Just like happened in New Orleans when Katrina hit? Just like happened in the Wild Wild West? Just like happens in Somalia today? Really? No. Don't be ridiculous.

As far as regulators they are controlled by federal government primarily, and think have you ever gone to and historic district and see wooden houses hundreds of years old and still standing tall even after countless storms even a fire, but today with all the regulation a house catches on fire and what happens, it burns down period, or not even a fire how many hurricanes and storms have taken down even the most expensive of houses. Yet the historic ones still stand tall. So with that in mind what good did the regulators really do, they lowered the standards to a point that now they have to build it back up. If you look at the standards of housing from hundred years ago, and compare them today you will see that the new regulations are only now starting to approach what it once was.

Well like I said I could easily do and hour lecture on this one. But I hope I have pointed out just some of the problems with the statement.

I'll assume you can give me some examples? Am I really the only one giving sources today?

[edit on 16-4-2010 by GTasker]

Originally posted by drmeola

The statistics speak for themselves, the social democracies (specifically those in Scandinavia, which I view as a perfect system, although they're not doing too badly anywhere else either) are better for society as a whole, and also better for the individual. Your free market paradise is even more unrealistic than Marxism. Go for the next best thing.

The system works well here in Norway, but I'll be the first to point out that it aint perfect.

Originally posted by Gromle

Originally posted by drmeola

The statistics speak for themselves, the social democracies (specifically those in Scandinavia, which I view as a perfect system, although they're not doing too badly anywhere else either) are better for society as a whole, and also better for the individual. Your free market paradise is even more unrealistic than Marxism. Go for the next best thing.

The system works well here in Norway, but I'll be the first to point out that it aint perfect.

No system is perfect. That's because Humans are, by definition, imperfect. Social Democracy, an extremely free market with a good welfare state and etc. are shown to work far better than various other systems.

That's good enough for me

Originally posted by GTasker

Originally posted by Gromle

Originally posted by drmeola

The statistics speak for themselves, the social democracies (specifically those in Scandinavia, which I view as a perfect system, although they're not doing too badly anywhere else either) are better for society as a whole, and also better for the individual. Your free market paradise is even more unrealistic than Marxism. Go for the next best thing.

The system works well here in Norway, but I'll be the first to point out that it aint perfect.

No system is perfect. That's because Humans are, by definition, imperfect. Social Democracy, an extremely free market with a good welfare state and etc. are shown to work far better than various other systems.

That's good enough for me

Honestly I don't even know how you people made it out of your parents house with that mindset. Just cant make it without someone taking care of you can you?

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
My country, because of it's Social Democracy has kept it's nose clean of most conflicts around the world and has not had to "bully" it's way into economic freedom and progress.

Canada is a social democracy. Canada has a decent foreign policy. Therefore, social democracies inherently have good foreign policies??????

Do you realize how many socialist programs the US has built into it? I argue it already is a SD, and has been for a very long time. About the only measure that doesnt fit is health care. And we already work 5 months out of the year to pay taxes. I argue the US is an example of a bad SD.

In any system there would be a measure of how socialist is it, not 'is it socialist'... Or rather how communist is it? Total socialism is Communism. You can argue how good your domestic socialism is and I can point how few many notches would be all it would take for them to legislate you into total communism.

And btw, if you didn't have all the trade with the US up there in Canada you might not be bragging how great it is up there. And I'm not even trying to brag about how good this system is, it sucks. If I didn't live in sunny climate under this system, if I still lived in Michigan I'd be miserable.

Furthermore, most of the wealth garnered by plundering the rest of the world gets horded by the elites, who do it too often using multinational corporations... The US is 'capitalist'. The elites in the US have plundered the world. Therefore, capitlalist states inherently plunder the world????

[edit on 19-4-2010 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

reply to post by IgnoranceIsntBlisss


Nope I wasn't implying we had good foreign policy because of a Social Democracy, just that our government, because of the way it is built and funded does not require war to elevate the population and bring new economic riches to it's people.

I agree that without our trading relationship, we wouln't be as good as we are, however that has nothing to do with what form of government we are keeping in line with.

~Keeper

[edit on 4/19/2010 by tothetenthpower]

reply to post by tothetenthpower


I updated the last part of my above post while you were posting yours.

Anyways, following the logic that this nation had to plunder its way up, inherently then 'your' prosperity comes from riding 'our' coat tails.

Of course I argue against the notion that it had to plunder its way up in the first place. In my view, the plundering had ittle to do with making life better for the commoners here, and is more about preventing the rest of the world from prospering, to eliminate competition for one thing.

And besides, now that the world has been plundered now the system has turned to domestic plundering to eliminate local competition, and you can bet you're also on the recieving end of all that.



[edit on 19-4-2010 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

Originally posted by Thirty_Foot_Smurf

Originally posted by GTasker

Originally posted by Gromle

Originally posted by drmeola

The statistics speak for themselves, the social democracies (specifically those in Scandinavia, which I view as a perfect system, although they're not doing too badly anywhere else either) are better for society as a whole, and also better for the individual. Your free market paradise is even more unrealistic than Marxism. Go for the next best thing.

The system works well here in Norway, but I'll be the first to point out that it aint perfect.

No system is perfect. That's because Humans are, by definition, imperfect. Social Democracy, an extremely free market with a good welfare state and etc. are shown to work far better than various other systems.

That's good enough for me

Honestly I don't even know how you people made it out of your parents house with that mindset. Just cant make it without someone taking care of you can you?

We made it of the house because there wasnt some deranged lunatic with a gun trying to shot us the minute we came outside.
We are free to what we want when we want it. We dont have step lightly in fear of being shot or sued for making a wrong move or mistake. We dont need to be taken care of.

"The Americans lecture the world on democracy and then won't let me turn the traction control off!" Jeremy Clarckson driving a Chrysler 300C

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
reply to post by tothetenthpower

 

I updated the last part of my above post while you were posting yours.

Anyways, following the logic that this nation had to plunder its way up, inherently then 'your' prosperity comes from riding 'our' coat tails.

Of course I argue against the notion that it had to plunder its way up in the first place. In my view, the plundering had ittle to do with making life better for the commoners here, and is more about preventing the rest of the world from prospering, to eliminate competition for one thing.

And besides, now that the world has been plundered now the system has turned to domestic plundering to eliminate local competition, and you can bet you're also on the recieving end of all that.



[edit on 19-4-2010 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

I agree, I definetly am on the receiving end of the domestic plundering of our two great nations.

Really I think the point I was making is that our government respects the will of the people a bit more than the US does..

~Keeper

reply to post by Gromle


You write that assuming I and the rest of us are ok with our social pussification.
Its exactly that progressive attitude that is destroying our exceptionalism and bringing us down to the rest of the worlds level.

And get over the guns. They dont kill people. Violent criminals kill people with any means necessary. If they didnt have guns they'd use or invent something else.

reply to post by tothetenthpower


Yeah , you could call it the " National American Workers Party , but first make sure the Fuhrer isn't German this time ............. Oh , and does " I'd Rather Be Dead Than Red .............Ring a Bell ? ...........

[edit on 19-4-2010 by Zanti Misfit]

[edit on 19-4-2010 by Zanti Misfit]

Have to bite on this section! i agree socialization to the masses has worked out well since about 1964, but with the current administration and tacticts deregulating financial institutions, only to imply more federally funded and mandated intrusion, has taken this once great country from a Capitalist-to-socialist-now to a fascist state! marx stated that a capitalist society would do this with given time, and i see that he was exatly right! the only thing that i substitued was fascist, with him saying communist! thus are we any better than china-russia? hell just gave our space technology to Russia, so my guess would be no?

Originally posted by kozmo
reply to post by Misoir

 

Wow! The system has been in effect for several WHOLE DECADES!!!

Well, I guess that just proves EVERYTHING then!

Come back and talk to me about it when it's been working for a few CENTURIES!!!

Oh, the irony.
Well, you come back when your country is over 300 year old..