Fairy Tale Economy equates to Trillions of Dollars of Uselessness

So, I had another thread discussing some points regarding the 600 Trillion dollar imaginary market that was used to destroy our economy while investors betted on the outcome.

Here's the source to that thread:
www.bloomberg.com...

Here's the actual thread:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Now...I am no longer trying to promote the last thread, however, it gave me an idea for this one.

I want you to imagine that you have a time machine. You're a trillionaire with tons of time and energy on your hands. You finally get bored in this silly reality, so, you decide to take...let's say, 600 trillion dollars back to the mother land Egypt. From your time machine you unload crates and crates of money until it breaks your back to get it all out. Let's just skip that part, because, hey...you're a trillionaire and you simply hire help to save the physical condition of your own spine.

Moving on...

So, you're traveling across the desert and you come up to a peasant who is walking his camel. It just so happens you also speak ancient Egyptian, so, even though the language is thousands of years old, you guys start having a conversation and things are going pretty well. You tell the Peasant that you are a very powerful man and that you have 600 trillion dollars that you can offer him for his camel, but something happens. The peasant begins to inspect your 600 trillion dollars in the midst of the hot, Egyptian sun and then a look of confusion comes over his face, sweat beading off of his forehead. Baffled, the peasant cannot think of one good reason to hand his camel over for these gratuitous stacks of this worthless printed paper that would only clutter his backyard. Confused, he looks at you with a sense of impatience, and walks away.

If people 2000 years ago wouldn't take printed money for an exchange of goods...WHY DO WE???

It's all imaginary people. And let me demonstrate just how imaginary that it is...

Try typing the word trillionaire, or trillionnaire into spell check and see what happens. (either spelling fails whether you use on l or two ll's or on n or two nn's)

It doesn't even exist in our dictionary...IT DOESN'T EXIST PEOPLE.

Anyway...I hope you enjoyed this little spoof of our monetary system. And that folks, is your fairy tale.


Thanks...Evolved Ministry.



[edit on 18-2-2010 by EvolvedMinistry]

The funniest part of this whole situation is that the majority of the imaginary money that supposedly makes up our economy isn't even represented by flimsy paper. it's just zeros and ones in computers. If that's not the ultimate tool for manipulating the masses, I don't know what is.

reply to post by warpcrafter


I agree totally. Funny how it has fooled us for this long.

funny thing that i see is that;

if i go to a bank with me having good credit.... , i can ask them for a loan... a credit line... now the "money" doesn't really exsist, until i sign the promissary note, and then the money still doesn't really exsist until i swipe my "Credit Card", and sign the receipt... and another amount of "money" is instanly created called INTEREST....

but then again the funny money that i dont have is counted in the banks fractional reserves, and can be used to "loan" more or create more credit lines????

is this right or have the banks patrons, been ripped off? cause i thought that when you deposit "money" into the bank, the bank actually uses that money to cash other peoples checks, and gives you "INTEREST" for you letting them use your "money"....?

if money is created out of debt, and i work somewhere in exchange for my labor and or knowledge, i receive a check issued by a bank, and cash that check, then pay off my "CREDIT/INTEREST" with "MONEY" my ACCOUNT is balanced with them.... just basically saying on some paper or some code in a computer that 0=0...

but for some reason the word FRAUD sticks out in my head...

It exists,

You just decided to create a reality that does not recognize that those 1s and 0s are a tangible item. That information and data even has a calculated weight in hardware used to store the so called non existant money. It started with the paper and ink you sign for the loan or mortgage.

The paper just isnt backed by real gold any more.

For you guys maybe. I learned that the only thing which gives our money value is confidence in it's issuance and worth. That the Treasury will stand behind it. Sure it's just paper... but you know, the funny thing about those scraps of paper and 1's & 0's stored in an account database... I can trade those notes of abstract value for REAL products. Food, clothing, a vehicle, all kinds of real stuff. Conversely, I could carry around a wad of Monopoly Money and have more actual raw materials in game money. But that game money isn't backed by Treasury, isn't legal tender, and thus is worth no more than the paper it's made of. The $20 bill is also a piece of paper, but I can trade it for $20 worth of goods, because it does have those magic words "Legal Tender" - and the Treasury will stand behind it's issuance.

Money is simply a liquid medium by which to more efficiently mediate the trade of goods. On the most basic level, you're still trading your commodities of time and labor for goods and services that you need. Money simply streamlines the process and makes it efficient.

Paper is simply money. Gold is simply an element. Salt is merely a compound of two very deadly elements. Spices were merely dried plant leaves and other materials. Seashells are merely the protective covering of marine mollusks. Fallout 3 depicts post-government post-apocalypse currency as bottle caps. PSO's meseta was so easy to come by, it was worthless for trade. Photon Drops became the defacto currency.

What makes any of that stuff worth anything? All of it's worth as applied resources are highly situational. Salt and Spices had practical use curing and preserving food, as well as maintaining health. Gold, eh... seashells... no. Bottle caps.. wut? It's all just arbitrary objects given an abstract measures of purchasing value. Sure gold is rare and stable as a currency - but that rarity stagnates and prevents the economy from growing furtther unless more can be gathered or raided from neighboring tribes.

The only reason money (paper) works, is because the people decided (in radical tradition) to accept iou's in place of gold. Why? Because gold is heavy, AND we wanted to charge more for our "stuff" than we could conceivably carry at any one time. Something had to be done.

Well that's all highly justified and understandable. Who would want to carry around 26,000 dollars (which by the way is about 24 ounces at the moment) for a mid-size car, when they could carry a paper and a pen and issue a conceivably infinite amount of money (i.e. weight gold).

WAIT A MINUTE!!!

24 ounces ain't that much right? Let's me think this through again...

Aaanyway ( lol ), points being:

1. All money is simply debt owed to someone, as they're all I.O.U.'s or representations of weighted gold. (Why gold?... ... ...) I don't care if they say they're legal tender or not...if we didn't see the value, we wouldn't accept it.
   
2. We each choose individually to accept those I.O.U.'s as such a representation because we can get stuff for it.
   
3. We value gold.
   

Why do we value GOLD?!? Simply because it's scarce ('hard to get') and shiny (like all sparkly and stuff)?!?

Just what the hell IS Monetary Value ANYWAY?



I jest...excellent thread and an abundance of excellent notions throughout.

I'm certainly appreciative of the fact that so many of us are able to wake up to this illusion...of our own making. The thought of "what's next" becomes a very entertaining one.

reply to post by nvprose1


Yep, its all fraud from the onset. Money only equates to what our imaginations allow it to equate to. This is the very reason why our economy is falling out in the first place. The global economy no longer recognizes the power of the American dollar.

reply to post by IntelRetard


Well, I would contend that its existence is faltering. The only reason why paper means anything is because of our belief that it means something.

Its paper...or its plastic, and either way it is transferred electronically. Therefore, it really amounts to nothing more than an electrical charge, just like a synapse.

The reason why our economy is faltering is because the world economy is losing "faith" in the power of the American dollar, which is something we never should have had faith in, in the first place.

Originally posted by Lasheic
For you guys maybe. I learned that the only thing which gives our money value is confidence in it's issuance and worth. That the Treasury will stand behind it. Sure it's just paper... but you know, the funny thing about those scraps of paper and 1's & 0's stored in an account database... I can trade those notes of abstract value for REAL products. Food, clothing, a vehicle, all kinds of real stuff. Conversely, I could carry around a wad of Monopoly Money and have more actual raw materials in game money. But that game money isn't backed by Treasury, isn't legal tender, and thus is worth no more than the paper it's made of. The $20 bill is also a piece of paper, but I can trade it for $20 worth of goods, because it does have those magic words "Legal Tender" - and the Treasury will stand behind it's issuance.

Money is simply a liquid medium by which to more efficiently mediate the trade of goods. On the most basic level, you're still trading your commodities of time and labor for goods and services that you need. Money simply streamlines the process and makes it efficient.

Paper is simply money. Gold is simply an element. Salt is merely a compound of two very deadly elements. Spices were merely dried plant leaves and other materials. Seashells are merely the protective covering of marine mollusks. Fallout 3 depicts post-government post-apocalypse currency as bottle caps. PSO's meseta was so easy to come by, it was worthless for trade. Photon Drops became the defacto currency.

What makes any of that stuff worth anything? All of it's worth as applied resources are highly situational. Salt and Spices had practical use curing and preserving food, as well as maintaining health. Gold, eh... seashells... no. Bottle caps.. wut? It's all just arbitrary objects given an abstract measures of purchasing value. Sure gold is rare and stable as a currency - but that rarity stagnates and prevents the economy from growing furtther unless more can be gathered or raided from neighboring tribes.

Beautifully stated. That was the point I was trying to make.

Originally posted by lagnar
The only reason money (paper) works, is because the people decided (in radical tradition) to accept iou's in place of gold. Why? Because gold is heavy, AND we wanted to charge more for our "stuff" than we could conceivably carry at any one time. Something had to be done.

Well that's all highly justified and understandable. Who would want to carry around 26,000 dollars (which by the way is about 24 ounces at the moment) for a mid-size car, when they could carry a paper and a pen and issue a conceivably infinite amount of money (i.e. weight gold).

WAIT A MINUTE!!!

24 ounces ain't that much right? Let's me think this through again...

Aaanyway ( lol ), points being:

1. All money is simply debt owed to someone, as they're all I.O.U.'s or representations of weighted gold. (Why gold?... ... ...) I don't care if they say they're legal tender or not...if we didn't see the value, we wouldn't accept it.
   
2. We each choose individually to accept those I.O.U.'s as such a representation because we can get stuff for it.
   
3. We value gold.
   

Why do we value GOLD?!? Simply because it's scarce ('hard to get') and shiny (like all sparkly and stuff)?!?

Just what the hell IS Monetary Value ANYWAY?

I jest...excellent thread and an abundance of excellent notions throughout.

I'm certainly appreciative of the fact that so many of us are able to wake up to this illusion...of our own making. The thought of "what's next" becomes a very entertaining one.

Thank you for recognizing the true point of the thread. We are living an imaginary system. Eventually, this imaginary system will crash and then...we will experience an imaginary fallout. Everything that we have done on this planet was the result of imagination and is based on nothing more than illusion...its all in our heads.

We need to start imagining something different.

It's interesting how memes arise from multiple places simultaneously, isn't it?

The following excerpt popped up on Digg today, from that bastion of satire, The Onion



Go to the SOURCE for more chuckles!!!

Originally posted by lagnar
Why do we value GOLD?!? Simply because it's scarce ('hard to get') and shiny (like all sparkly and stuff)?!?

Culturally and historically? I'm not sure offhand. I assume it was due to it's malleability and resistance to oxidization (doesn't rust). That it's shiny and rare helped I'm sure. We're not that far distantly related to the raccoon. I don't have much use for it myself beyond conductivity in electronics.

One of the guys I watch on YouTube every so often has an affinity for Gold because of it's origin. Gold is rare because it's one of the heaviest elements forged during the final moments of supernova when the heat and pressures are climaxing.

The thought of "what's next" becomes a very entertaining one.

What's next? Pie. Then a nap. If you mean in regards to the topic here... nothing. Money has been a monumental success in human civilizations, which is likely why we've been using it in some form or another since the first known human settlements. And me... I like civilization. I like plentiful food, safe water, warm shelter, global communication, medicine, and protection from predators. Yeah, it's not a perfect system... but then what is?

Originally posted by EvolvedMinistry
reply to post by nvprose1

 

Yep, its all fraud from the onset.

Fraud implies deception to promote an untruth. That money is mere paper that's only worth is found in the volume of noted bills in circulation and consumer confidence that it has worth beyond it's raw material is basic High School economics introduction stuff. You can find this out at your local library, on Wikipedia, and the Federal Reserve website.

Why are you trying to play it off like a deception and hold them morally responsible for what is clearly your own lack of curiosity or education? Might as well start now... there's far more incorrect assumptions out there than there are people to blame them on.

Money only equates to what our imaginations allow it to equate to.

There's a bit more to it than that. Your disillusionment is not going to affect the standing of the dollar internationally. But that's pretty much how it is with every commodity when you get right down to it. What... do you think physical objects or preformed services have some base "essence of worth" which is determined independently? If you come up to me in the post-apocalypse hellscape thinking your gold bars are going to be worth anything to me in trade, you'd find another assumption quickly broken. And you'd find your gold bars worth about as much to me as lead bricks for all the ammo or food it would buy you.

How would you feel if I paid you a 40 hour week salary in milligrams of salt per hour? How much would that be worth to you? How much was that worth to a Roman soldier in the 4th century? That's where the origin of the phrase "Not being worth your salt" comes from. It means you're not worth the payment rendered for your services.

This is the very reason why our economy is falling out in the first place.

Right, because real life really is just that simple. Our economy is in the shape it is, partially because blue collar working stiffs and easy money hounds like my cousin Jen drew more equity out of their homes than they were worth, and all those bad loans that couldn't be paid or were bailed on got packaged up into investment portfolios, slapped with a AAA rating, and sold to banks, towns, corporations, what-have you. They got passed around so much, people can't renegotiate their mortgages because they're still trying to figure out just who the hell actually owns their mortgage.

That's what the bailouts were for in large part... the banks getting stuck with toxic assets they can't off load forcing them to close, thus freezing the credit market.

That was a bit of a horrible oversimplification, but it's more useful than simplistic "Fiat Bad" assessments based on a distrust of abstract concepts.

The global economy no longer recognizes the power of the American dollar.

The dollar has fallen in value against other currencies, but it's still pretty much the standard the global business world uses. That could have very easily changed, and still might, but it looks like it might hold it's place for awhile. But even so, what's your point? Who the hell has a currency strong enough to take the dollar's spot that ISN'T ALSO Fiat currency.

The only reason why paper means anything is because of our belief that it means something.

So what? The only reason why language means anything is because of our belief that it means something. Despite the occasional breakdown in communication, would you suggest returning to guttural grunts and hoots our pre-language ancestors used?

You just fell for the money illusion. It's not some earth-shattering revelation that threatens the global economy if "people only knew the truth". That's just the way it operates.

Therefore, it really amounts to nothing more than an electrical charge, just like a synapse.

The irony of that statement is delicious, considering the advances in neuroscience and our ability to map cognitive faculty to the brain regions it arises from and interacts with. If you want to stick with that analogy, I'll let Descartes famous argument follow through, "I Think; Therefore, I am". The invaluable, intangible, and yet very real "I" who's existence is self-evident by virtue of being capable of "Thinking" is an expression of those little synapses firing. There is no body/mind dualism after all, and even if there is, it has nothing to do with the "I" Descartes established the existence of.

reply to post by Lasheic


Thanks for your reply, I don't agree with you, but I respect your opinion.

Originally posted by EvolvedMinistry
If people 2000 years ago wouldn't take printed money for an exchange of goods...WHY DO WE???

Simple: Modern people don't sell you food for copper debens.

It's all imaginary people.

No it's not. I can walk into any store in the US with a $100 bill and walk out with whatever I want. I can walk into any bank in another country and exchange that $100 bill for local currency, then walk into a store and still walk out with whatever I want.

Hey, whatever gets me goods and services is not imaginary, its very real no matter how worthless it is in another dimension.

Now, I don't know about OP, but if I were smart enough to build a time machine, and smart enough to speak egyptian, then I think I would also be smart enough to exchange all the money I have for gold before traveling back in time. I give the peasant 1 pebble of gold, I get camel, and hey, those 'trillions' of paper money I had helped me get a camel. woot woot!

Originally posted by daniel_g

Originally posted by EvolvedMinistry
If people 2000 years ago wouldn't take printed money for an exchange of goods...WHY DO WE???

Simple: Modern people don't sell you food for copper debens.

It's all imaginary people.

No it's not. I can walk into any store in the US with a $100 bill and walk out with whatever I want. I can walk into any bank in another country and exchange that $100 bill for local currency, then walk into a store and still walk out with whatever I want.

Hey, whatever gets me goods and services is not imaginary, its very real no matter how worthless it is in another dimension.

Now, I don't know about OP, but if I were smart enough to build a time machine, and smart enough to speak egyptian, then I think I would also be smart enough to exchange all the money I have for gold before traveling back in time. I give the peasant 1 pebble of gold, I get camel, and hey, those 'trillions' of paper money I had helped me get a camel. woot woot!

The fact that you can walk in with a 100 dollar bill and walk out with the goods that you desire does not mean that this invention isn't imaginary. Someone created the idea of currency one day, and then everyone collectively decided that it meant something. The car you drive is based off of imagination. The street you drive your car on is based off of someone's imagination (invention). Everything that you do, is based off the imagination of something someone else created. If you agree that the piece of paper in your hand has value, then your imagination is the only thing that makes it real. And once the world currency rejects the imaginary properties of currency...You're going to be in for a big surprise!!! Hence...economic meltdowns. If you don't think this premise has merit, why don't you call up Greece and ask them why they are currently experiencing bankruptcy. Or we could delve into the Great Depression where thousands of people jumped out of buildings and starved because the currency in which they held so much trust in no longer had value. Why did it no longer have value???...If you want, you can provide that response.

And why does the word trillionaire not exist in our dictionaries yet??? Because someone hasn't had the imagination to put it there to make it a collective reality.

And, if you didn't read the link that I provided above, you probably don't have an idea of how far things have really gone.

[edit on 18-2-2010 by EvolvedMinistry]

Originally posted by EvolvedMinistry
Someone created the idea of currency one day, and then everyone collectively decided that it meant something. The car you drive is based off of imagination. The street you drive your car on is based off of someone's imagination (invention). Everything that you do, is based off the imagination of something someone else created.

The fact that something is based off imagination doesn't make that something any less real.
Second line.

[edit on 18-2-2010 by daniel_g]

and whats even more ludacris is they expect us the citizens to pay the price for their crimes... that aint gonna happen... if you do business with criminals then dont envolve the population, as we are victims not the beneficaries of said criminal enterprise. and that is what I see happening. they are putting us on the hook for their deeds. and we are allowing them to continue to plunder the treasury if we have one that is...

Originally posted by daniel_g

Originally posted by EvolvedMinistry
Someone created the idea of currency one day, and then everyone collectively decided that it meant something. The car you drive is based off of imagination. The street you drive your car on is based off of someone's imagination (invention). Everything that you do, is based off the imagination of something someone else created.

The fact that something is based off imagination doesn't make that something any less real.
Second line.

[edit on 18-2-2010 by daniel_g]

Agreed. However, the monetary system is quite reflective of its imaginary properties at the moment. Just take a look around.

Originally posted by Anti-Evil
and whats even more ludacris is they expect us the citizens to pay the price for their crimes... that aint gonna happen... if you do business with criminals then dont envolve the population, as we are victims not the beneficaries of said criminal enterprise. and that is what I see happening. they are putting us on the hook for their deeds. and we are allowing them to continue to plunder the treasury if we have one that is...

Agreed. Thanks for your reply.