Robert Hastings has a message for UFO non-believers.

Originally posted by Robert Hastings
Traditionaldrummer: An "informed opinion" is still an opinion. Bring us some facts, something we can touch and test and verify beyond a reasonable doubt.

RH: There are thousands of facts on my website and in my book. Although the vast majority of Americans are completely unaware of *this* fact, hundreds of U.S. Air Force, FBI, and CIA documents—declassified via the Freedom of Information Act—establish a convincing pattern of UFO incursions at U.S. nuclear weapons sites, decade after decade, beginning in December 1948.

These dramatic events have occurred at missile launch sites, bomb and missile warhead storage facilities, nuclear development laboratories, and weapons test sites in Nevada and the Pacific.

Memos, eyewitness accounts and radar data still doesn't turn the "unidentified" into "identified".

While most UFO skeptics are quick to dismiss as impossible the idea that UFOs are alien spacecraft, very few of them will ever make the effort to learn whether any evidence exists to suggest otherwise.

Perhaps a UFO skeptic's standard of evidence is greater than that of a UFO researcher's standards, particularly when the researcher has the clear bias of attempting to link UFO's to aliens and their spacecraft. Until someone produces an alien or their spacecraft which can be verified and tested using scientific methods no reasonable person should conclude that either exist based upon a preponderance of documents, reports or eyewitness accounts.

I'm in favor of researching anything unidentified but UFO skepticism remains valid.

Speaking of the UFO-Nukes Connection, and other national security-related UFO activity, here is an excerpt from my book, UFOs and Nukes, addressing files that have been kept back from declassification:

From the chapter, "Look Over Here, Not Over There!"

The *selective* declassification of UFO-related information by the U.S. government has been routinely utilized for decades to steer public perception in a certain direction. It’s commonly called “spin.” The purpose of this propaganda tactic is to alter the actual story of official interest in the UFO phenomenon, so that it appears as if there exists only minimal concern, or none at all.

A case in point is the Air Force’s closure of Project Blue Book in 1969. The project’s termination, and the eventual declassification of its files in 1974-75, left the impression—as was intended—that the military had lost interest in UFOs and was making public the sum of its knowledge about them. In reality, other groups within the Air Force, and other agencies, had also routinely collected information on UFOs for decades, out of public view, especially in cases where the national security of the United States was potentially impacted.

For example, consider the dramatic information provided to Office of Special Investigations (OSI) agents by Bob Salas and the other missile launch officers at Malmstrom AFB, in March 1967, in the wake of the large-scale missile shutdown incidents. Did Blue Book staffers even know that OSI had interviewed at least four launch officers, all of whom reported apparent UFO-involvement in the missile malfunctions? If the declassified Blue Book files are any indication, they did not.

The same holds true for most of the other accounts presented in this book, provided not only by ex-Air Force personnel stationed at various SAC missile bases over the years, but also by various airmen, sailors and marines who participated in the atmospheric nuclear tests of the 1950s and early 1960s. Many of these UFO sighting witnesses report that they were subsequently questioned by an agent working for OSI or some other military or civilian intelligence group. As far as I am aware, none of the written reports relating to those interrogations have been declassified. Consequently, according to the official record—at least the version of it publicly available following the release of Blue Book’s files—the great majority of the incidents reported in this book never even happened.



***Researcher Jan Aldrich notes, “In [a] 1952 LOOK article, [then Project Blue Book chief, Captain Edward] Ruppelt mentions a file of 63 cases of UFOs over nuclear installations, but such a file is not in currently-declassified Blue Book files.***



That missing file aside, one declassified Air Force document explicitly explains why Blue Book may not have routinely received national security-related UFO reports, including those at nuclear weapons sites...The memorandum, dated October 20, 1969, and signed by Air Force General C.H. Bolender, the Air Force’s Deputy Director of Development, was directed to all Air Force commands. While the memo did indeed suggest that Project Blue Book should be terminated, it then stated, “...reports of UFOs which could affect national security should continue to be handled through the standard Air Force procedure designed for this purpose.” General Bolender emphasized this point, adding, “Reports of unidentified flying objects which could affect national security are made in accordance with JANAP 146 or Air Force Manual 55-11, and are not part of the Blue Book system.” As researcher Barry Greenwood has noted, sixteen attachments which once accompanied the Bolender memorandum are no longer in Air Force files, at least according to the FOIA managers who responded to various requests for their release.

Regardless, the Bolender document confirms that the most important UFO cases—those potentially affecting national security—were never routinely funneled to Project Blue Book in the first place, but were sent to other, less-publicized groups within the Air Force, which were still tasked with collecting and evaluating such reports after Blue Book’s official and highly-touted closure.

It will be remembered that in my chapter on the Minuteman missile shutdown incidents at Echo and Oscar Flights, outside Malmstrom AFB, in March 1967, the Air Force—in response to an FOIA request filed by researcher Jim Klotz—declassified portions of the 341st Strategic Missile Wing’s history, as well as various engineering reports, one of which claimed that reports of UFOs from Air Force personnel in the missile field at the time of the Echo Flight shutdown had later been “disproved”. Significantly, although a number of ex-USAF personnel have now discussed the subsequent shutdown at Oscar Flight, there is no mention of its occurrence in the declassified files. Officially, it was a non-event.

While the documents released to Klotz would seem to squelch any notion of UFO involvement in the shutdowns, the OSI reports relating to the debriefing of the launch officers who were involved in the incidents were not released, and their very existence has never been acknowledged by the Air Force. The release of the wing history and other reports was, in my view, most probably an attempt at spin, designed to refute the now-public testimony of the former or retired Air Force launch officers, and other missile personnel, who have confirmed a UFO involvement in the shutdown incidents. As the Air Force historian who wrote the 341st SMW history later admitted to Klotz, after he had learned about UFO sightings in the missile field and wrote about them, his superiors edited—that is, censored—the “UFO aspect” of his report. It was this edited version of events that was later declassified.

Although the U.S. Air Force had declassified all of the Project Blue Book files by 1975, including some number of previously unavailable OSI reports sent to the group, no OSI reports relating to the debriefing of the launch officers at Malmstrom in 1967—or other Air Force personnel involved in this or that nuclear missile-related UFO incident—were among them.

So, James Carlson, Drew Hempel, and anyone else critical of Bob Salas' revelations, as noted above in the *** bracketed sentence***, 15 years before the incidents at Malmstrom AFB, Project Blue Book Chief Captain Ed Ruppelt told a nationally-prominent magazine that UFOs had hovered over nuclear weapons-related facilities on 63 occasions (!) between 1947 and '52.

--Robert Hastings

www.ufohastings.com

More on the magazine article mentioned in my last post, again from my book:

An important, if brief, public examination of this situation was provided in June 1952, when LOOK magazine published an article titled, “Hunt For The Flying Saucer”.8 Among other revelations, the exposé quoted Captain Edward J. Ruppelt, chief of the U.S. Air Force’s UFO investigations group, Project Blue Book, as saying that many of the sighting reports had originated at one atomic weapons-related site or another, not only in New Mexico, but all around the country. Given its investigative mission, Blue Book had been privy to classified intelligence summaries relating to these still-unsolved incidents at “sensitive” installations. According to LOOK, the “ominous correlation” between such sightings and these top secret facilities had been brought to the attention of high ranking Air Force officers, prompting a meeting at the Pentagon to discuss the apparent UFO-nukes link.

Later, after resigning from the Air Force, Ruppelt wrote the book, The Report on Unidentified Flying Objects, in 1956, in which he expanded upon his earlier comments to LOOK, noting, “UFOs were seen more frequently around areas vital to the defense of the United States. The Los Alamos-Albuquerque area, Oak Ridge, and White Sands Proving Ground rated high.” 9

Each of these locations was directly or indirectly involved in America’s nuclear weapons program: Los Alamos Laboratory conducted theoretical research and designed the bombs. In Albuquerque, Sandia Laboratory engineered those weapons, which were often transported to nearby Manzano Base, an underground storage facility. At Kirtland Air Force Base (AFB), located just west of Manzano, the nukes were loaded onto strategic bombers and cargo aircraft and flown to test sites in Nevada and the Marshall Islands, in the Pacific Ocean, as well as to military bases throughout the continental U.S. and Alaska, then not yet a state.

Meanwhile, at the Oak Ridge facility, in Tennessee, reactors feverishly produced weapons-grade uranium and plutonium for an ever-expanding nuclear arsenal. (Oak Ridge had also played an essential role in the World War II-era Manhattan Project, by providing the uranium for the bomb dropped on Hiroshima.) Various declassified FBI and Air Force memoranda, and other reliable reports, note no fewer than 14 separate UFO sightings at Oak Ridge, during the period from October 12 to December 20, 1950. The tally was based on reports provided by various governmental security officers at the installation, as well as military pilots and radar personnel.10

At the third UFO sighting hot spot mentioned by Ruppelt, White Sands Proving Ground, in southern New Mexico, the military was engaged in ongoing tests of the rudimentary rockets which would, within a decade, evolve into highly accurate, intercontinental delivery systems for U.S. nuclear warheads—as well as the boosters NASA would use to take its first, tentative steps into space.

But these key strategic sites were not the only ones under apparent UFO surveillance. In his book, Ruppelt revealed a dramatic incident which had occurred at yet another. “On the night of December 10, 1952,” he wrote, “near another atomic installation, the Hanford plant in Washington, the pilot and radar observer of a patrolling F-94 spotted a light while flying at 26,000 feet. The crew called their ground control station and were told that no planes were known to be in the area. They closed on the object and saw a large, round, white ‘thing’ with a dim reddish light coming from two ‘windows.’ They lost visual contact but got a radar lock-on. They reported that when they attempted to close on it again it would reverse direction and dive away. Several times the plane altered course itself because collision seemed imminent.” 11

At the time of this incident, the Hanford nuclear plant was the world’s largest producer of weapons-grade plutonium. Moreover, during World War II, its reactors had provided the fissile material used in both the first atomic bomb test in New Mexico, and the bomb that destroyed Nagasaki.

But the attempted intercept of the UFO was not the first such incident near the Hanford plant. A now-declassified Air Force intelligence report confirms that on May 21, 1949, a “silvery, disc-shaped” object had been sighted hovering directly over the plant by Hanford personnel. Simultaneously, the UFO was being tracked on radar at nearby Moses Lake AFB, where an F-82 fighter had been scrambled to intercept it. However, before the jet could get close enough, the UFO left the vicinity at a high rate of speed—faster than any aircraft—according to the report. Although this incident was publicly dismissed by the Air Force as the sighting of a conventional aircraft, the classified report on the case contained the investigating officer’s written remark that the sighting involved “flying saucers” [sic].12

Another case of documented UFO activity in the restricted airspace above the Hanford plant occurred fourteen months later. A declassified but undated U.S. Army Memorandum For Record, whose subject was “Flying Discs”, states, “The following information was furnished Major Carlen by Lt. Colonel Mildren on 4 August 1950: Since 30 July 1950 objects, round in form, have been sighted over the Hanford AEC [Atomic Energy Commission] plant. These objects reportedly were above 15,000 feet in altitude. Air Force jets attempted interception with negative results. All units including the anti-aircraft battalion, radar units, Air Force fighter squadrons, and the Federal Bureau of Investigation have been alerted for further observation. The Atomic Energy Commission states that the investigation is continuing and complete details will be forwarded later.” 13 The memo was signed by Major U.G. Carlan, General Support Center (GSC), Survey Section.

As if to underscore the importance of the Hanford site, five months before the jet intercept attempt mentioned by Ruppelt in his book, another UFO sighting occurred at Hanford, and was reported by The Miami Herald: “On July 6, 1952, four non-scheduled airline pilots reported they saw a saucer hovering near the atomic energy plant at Richland, Washington. The four were Captain John Baldwin of Coral Gables, Captains George Robertson and D. D. Shenkel of Miami and Steven Summers of Hialeah—all of them veteran airmen.” 14 (Ruppelt later claimed the sighting was of a Skyhook Balloon, but this seems questionable, given the details in the published report.)

Elsewhere in his book, Ruppelt noted that UFOs had also demonstrated a distinct interest in yet another nuclear weapons-related plant which had just come online. He wrote, “Many of the reports came from people in the vicinity of the then new super-hush-hush AEC facility at Savannah River, Georgia [sic].”15 The fissile materials plant is actually in South Carolina but located on the river which serves as a common boundary between that state and Georgia. It became operational in 1952, and would for the next 40 years produce much of the plutonium and tritium used in America’s nuclear weapons.

One declassified FBI letter, dated May 15, 1952, reports that miniature “flying disks” had been sighted at the Savannah River Plant just days before, on May 10th. The lengthy letter was sent by FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover to the director of the Air Force’s Office of Special Investigations, as well as the Inspector General of the Air Force.

According to Hoover, four DuPont company employees working at the plant “saw four disk shaped objects approaching ‘the four hundred area’ from the south which disappeared in a northerly direction.” Two other disks, each flying alone, were sighted by the same workers shortly thereafter. Hoover continued, “The disks were described by the above-mentioned employees as being approximately fifteen inches in diameter and yellow to gold in color. All of the objects were allegedly traveling at a high rate of speed and at a high altitude without any noise.” Hoover wrote that one of the solitary discs “was reportedly traveling at such a low altitude it had to rise to pass over some tall tanks which are in ‘the four hundred area.’ The employee referred to above advised the objects were weaving form left to right but seemed to hold a general course.” 16

The 400 Area contained a number of large holding tanks in which plutonium processing-related effluents were stored. Apparently, the size of the diminutive discs was estimated based on the one observed maneuvering at low altitude near the tanks, whose dimensions were known and used for comparison. As will be discussed later in this chapter, other sightings of mini-UFOs—which are presumably remote-controlled—had been reported three years earlier at Killeen Base, a nuclear weapons storage site in Texas.

Air Force and FBI investigators were not the only members the U.S. government worried by this kind of development. At least one high-level CIA analyst also expressed concern over UFO sightings at sensitive government installations. On December 2, 1952, Dr. H. Marshall Chadwell, Assistant Director of the CIA’s Office of Scientific Intelligence, wrote a Secret memorandum to CIA Director Walter B. Smith, titled, “Unidentified Flying Objects.” The memo noted repeated UFO sightings at important, but unspecified U.S. “defense” sites and stated, “At this time, the reports of incidents convince us that there is something going on that must have immediate attention...Sightings of unexplained objects at great altitudes and traveling at high speeds in the vicinity of major U.S. defense installations are of such nature that they are not attributable to natural phenomena or known types of aerial vehicles.” 18

While Dr. Chadwell did not identify the “major” defense sites at which the sightings had occurred, it is almost certain that he was referring to the plants at which nuclear weapons materials were being produced. Within the previous seven months, UFOs had been reported by military personnel or civilians near Oak Ridge, Savannah River and Hanford. (Another military UFO sighting and radar tracking—the one reported by Edward Ruppelt—occurred at the Hanford plant eight days after Chadwell wrote his memorandum.)

Dr. Chadwell concluded his memo to the CIA director by stating, “Attached hereto is a draft memorandum to the NSC (National Security Council) and a simple draft NSC Directive establishing this matter as a priority project throughout the intelligence and the defense research and development community.” 19

Clearly, Chadwell considered UFO sightings at nuclear weapons sites to be of great concern and, therefore, urged that they be brought to the attention of the highest levels of the U.S. government. Researcher Brad Sparks correctly notes that CIA Director Smith did not approve Chadwell’s recommendation that the NSC be presented with the matter. Regardless, by the time Chadwell wrote his memo, the mysterious aerial objects had been intermittently observed near installations associated with atomic, or the new thermonuclear weapons for a full four years—their origin, and the intentions of their presumed pilots still unknown.

--Robert Hastings

www.ufohastings.com

And now for a clarification: In the early days, Blue Book was indeed an investigative group, not the PR front it later morphed into. The nuclear weapons-related cases mentioned by Ruppelt, in the June 1952 LOOK article mentioned above, verify that he was at that time privy to UFO incidents affecting national security. However, as I also note in my book, by November of the same year, Blue Book had essentially been frozen out of the loop. Therefore, after the project's closure in 1969, General Bollender could accurately state that UFO cases affecting national security were not "a part of the Blue Book system."

reply to post by Robert Hastings


With all due respect Robert this phone call is very ambiguous -- you first lead the enquiry by asking about UFOs since they have not been mentioned, then the maintenance person is brought up by WF stating the maintenance could not know unless they were on the radio but only security police was using the radio.

So why was the maintenance person even mentioned? Did the maintenance person see the UFO -- according to James Carlson no because the maintenance person was underground.

So if it was not the maintenance person then why did WF even mention the maintenance person and why only AFTER you prompted him by asking about UFOs?

Then WF says about the maintenance person UNLESS THEY WERE ON THE RADIO....

So again why mention the maintenance person if they were not on the radio and if they could not see the UFO?

So then we are led to believe the maintenance person was NOT on the radio -- but apparently saw the UFO (even though it's not possible since they were underground -- so why mention them?)....

And THEN we get apparently the security police on the radio (although it's unclear for sure)... and when the person on the radio is serious about a "large object hovering over the site" then why is this reported as

"rumor of UFO" on the record.

So, [I said,] “There’s two of you there, saying so, so write it down in your report.”

So WF states he told the person on the radio to report what they saw down on record yet the only record is

rumor of UFO.

So if the person on the radio SAW the ufo -- and was told to report it on record -- why does the record say "rumor"?

RH: So far in this narrative, you haven’t mentioned UFOs. WF: [Laughs] That’s correct. Um, somewhere along the way, um, one of the maintenance people—cause he didn’t know what was going on any place else either, they have no capability of talking to each other [at different launch sites], in other words, they can talk to the [launch] capsule but they can’t talk to each other— RH: Right WF: —unless they were on the radio and no one was using the radio except the security police. And the guy says, “We got a Channel 9 No-Go. It must be a UFO hovering over the site. I think I see one here.” [I said,] “Yeah, right, whatever. What were you drinking?” And he tried to convince me of something and I said, well, I basically, you know, didn’t believe him. [Laughs] I said, you know, we have to get somebody to look at this [No-Go]. [A short time later] one of the Strike Teams that went out, one of the two, claimed that they saw something over the site. RH: How did they describe that? WF: Oh, on radio, [they said,] “There’s this large object hovering over the site!” I’ve always been a non-believer [in UFOs] so I said, “Right, sure you do.” [They responded,] “Yeah! Yeah, we do!” So, [I said,] “There’s two of you there, saying so, so write it down in your report.” [The Strike Team leader] said, “What do you want us to do?” [I said,] “Follow your checklist. Go to the site, open it up, and call me.”

Drew Hempel: So why was the maintenance person even mentioned? Did the maintenance person see the UFO -- according to James Carlson no because the maintenance person was underground.


RH: Wrong, as usual, Drew. The maintenance guys were still sleeping in their camper, as noted by Col. Figel. He told the guard to get them up. (Gee, James Carlson got something wrong?! I'm stunned!)

Earlier in the conversation, but out of chronological order, Figel said,

And the [maintenance] guy says, “We got a Channel 9 No-Go. It must be a UFO hovering over the site. I think I see one here.” [I said,] “Yeah, right, whatever. What were you drinking?” And he tried to convince me of something and I said, well, I basically, you know, didn’t believe him. [Laughs] I said, you know, we have to get somebody to look at this [No-Go]. [A short time later] one of the Strike Teams that went out, one of the two, claimed that they saw something over the site.

What a poor reader you are, Drew.

I mentioned to Figel that he had not yet said anything about the UFOs, to move things along. He then got into the meat of the conversation. I am not surprised that you consider the conversation ambiguous, given your perpetual cluelessness. You can swallow Stan Deyo's BS with no problem but if Figel--the guy who was actually in the capsule with James' father--says, point blank, that a guard reported on the phone that a large round object was hovering directly over the LF, and that the elder Carlson heard the exchange because he was sitting right next to Figel, then that's somehow not clear enough for you.


[edit on 13-2-2010 by Robert Hastings]

[edit on 13-2-2010 by Robert Hastings]

[edit on 13-2-2010 by Robert Hastings]

Originally posted by James Carlson
reply to post by Xtraeme

 

Unless somebody says "I saw a UFO", there is no report. That's the case of March 16, 1967; nobody reported -- formally or informally -- a UFO on March 16. The "rumors" was 2 guys screwing around; it was admitted, and everybody knew they were screwing around, but it had been said on the landline and had to be accounted for by the investigating team. It was accounted for, and then properly dismissed.

I think you'd benefit by exposing yourself to the atmosphere of the time-period. If you watch this clip from CBS's 1966 airing of UFO: Friend, Foe or Fantasy you'll see that Frank Manner (@7:01) was extremely upset about his entire experience after reporting a UFO through official channels:

Interviewer: Are you sorry now that you did tell people what you saw?

Frank: Yes I am, I am sorry. ... Not that it's not the truth, but it's just the idea of the reaction of the people. They think you're a nut. Tell you the truth, that's just what they figure you are. And I'm not going to take it no more. I don't want nobody down in here ... just leave me alone. And if the thing lands right there by that pump I'd never say a word. And he got out and talked to me, I wouldn't tell nobody. ..."

It's very easy to imagine that people at Echo & Oscar Flight may have reneged on their original statements due to similar motivations and/or perhaps because of AFR 200-2 (later AFR-187) / JANAP-146, "both of which specified heavy fines and/or prison sentences for individuals who revealed details about unexplained UFO sightings in which they had been involved in the course of their employment." [Druffel, ibid p97]

So the fact that we have a comment from the maintenance team which you readily concede ("Yeah, we've got a channel 9 No-Go -- it must be that UFO floating over the silo."), Salas, Figel, and an official document is indicative of something that's not entirely on the level.

As for the B-36 case, they did find the original write up. It was May 1, 1952 and the report is accounted for, along with the letters by McDonald and Pestalozzi in the Project Blue Book Files. Go to: www.bluebookarchive.org...

The quality isn't very good, but it's good enough to tell that the earlier parts of the file are the original report made by the UFO officer. The point, however, isn't that the file may have been lost or the date was wrong or somebody had a hard time tracking it down 15 years later. The point is that the UFO officer investigated the matter, was very honest about it because it was his duty, and did a report -- he understood exactly what he did, why and how he did it, and it was on record as having been done.

While I appreciate you searching the Blue Book files, the case that you reference sadly isn't the same one originally mentioned by Pestalozzi.

As Druffel notes,

McDonald did comes across another B-36 case which had also been reported by Pestalozzi, involving a May 1, 1952, observation by a master sergeant of two UFOs pacing a B-36 as it passed over Davis-Monthan AFB. (ibid, p. 62)

[edit on 13-2-2010 by Xtraeme]

reply to post by Robert Hastings


Robert you didn't answer my question -- the same point James Carlson is making.

The only written record about UFOs is that "rumor of UFO was disproven."

So again, Robert, James Carlson has shown extensively that Robert Salas has changed his story numerous times.

So now you rely not on Salas (who wrote a whole book based on his flimsy story changing!) but on Figel.

Figel tells the TWO security to record their UFO sighting in a report.

So why didn't the UFO sighting by the two security guards get recorded in a report as Figel ordered?

All that is recorded is "UFO rumor disproven."

Or are you claiming the security report was disappeared? If not then why was it not recorded as Figel ordered the security to do?

If it wasn't recorded then it remains a rumor -- one, again, disproven.

Please clarify because James Carlson has also explained WHY the shut down happened.

Originally posted by drew hempel
reply to post by Robert Hastings

 

Figel tells the TWO security to record their UFO sighting in a report.

So why didn't the UFO sighting by the two security guards get recorded in a report as Figel ordered?

Blue Book's charter didn't include investigating issues that involved national security, which likely explains why there are only a handful of above-SECRET classifications in the Blue Book files. You have to also realize Blue Book was a small organization. There were usually only handful of three or four people on staff.

There were several other divisions purportedly investigating more classified incidents with UFOs, or in more neutral terms "foreign technology," including the 4602 air intelligence service squadron (AISS), as mentioned in AFR 200-2, and William Moore's less believable 1127th Field Activities Group.

Since the '67 incident was related to Minuteman missiles the event would have been classified SECRET or above, as evidenced by the declassified Strategic Missile Wing documents and therefore very likely outside the jurisdiction of Blue Book and possibly other AF intelligence offices.

So additional records may exist in another sub-organization though there's also a chance they may have out-lived their retention date.

[edit on 13-2-2010 by Xtraeme]

reply to post by Robert Hastings


Once again, Robert Hastings has proven that he won't answer the questions put to him. Why don't you read my book, Robert? I discuss your interviews and transcripts, and I prove that once again you've interpreted what's been said poorly because you're only interested in ONE outcome. You're not looking for information -- you're looking for UFOs. As for my questions, I've asked you dozens of questions that you have simply ignored for months and months. When I posted them on your regular forum at UFO CHRONICLES, they were ignored, my statements were removed, and either you or the people who run that forum closed it out, presumably so my questions wouldn't be answered. You print a lot of noise, but there's nothing of substance here, which I prove in my book. You make a big deal out of the fact that I haven't spoken to Walt Figel, without seeming to realize that I don't need to -- everything I need to prove that UFOs were not involved is already in the interviews YOU conducted, the articles written by Robert Salas and James Klotz, and the websites at CUFON and NICAP. The very obvious point to all this is none of you know anything about the subject -- military missile systems and the classification of military documents; you make assumptions that don't make sense and you don't understand what people are very clearly telling you. I've asked you questions and you've ignored them; I've pointed out fallacies in your argument and you don't care; and when I tried to point them out to your readers at UFO CHRONICLES, I was shut down, and the forum closed out, my last emails removed. You and the others I've discussed above have purposely hidden information, misinterpreted details that -- at least as far as Salas is concerned, having actually served in the military in a position requiring knowledge of DoD procedures -- should not have been misinterpreted, and have gone out of your way to throw scads of irrelevant information at the subject in the hope that the sheer amount alone will fool people into thinking you know what you're talking about. I can and have proven all of this and documented it in my book, which you very obviously still haven't read. Before sounding even more ridiculous, you should at least take a look. After all, I'm giving it away for FREE -- so it won't hurt you to download a copy and at least familiarize yourself a little bit with my argument before trying tp refute it with information I have already taken into account. You can download it at www.scribd.com... -- I still have a number of questions for you that you've never answered or attempted to explain, and such a fabulous researcher as you pretend to be should be able to do so easily. For instance, if the Oscar Flight missiles were either taken offline by UFOs or failed on March 24-25, why did Lt. Col. Chase inform FTD that no equipment failures at all occurred? After all -- FTD would have been running the show had such interference by UFOs actually happened, and they were his immediate superiors. Also, nobody at Malmstrom or SAC had the authority to circumvent such orders. Why no investigation of UFOs sighted on March 16 by Blue Book if such an event happened? This was REQUIRED. Why was the Echo Flight Incident classified SECRET when the minimum classification for an such event, if caused by a UFO, would have been TOP SECRET by definition? Why did maintenance first tell Figel about the UFO when they were on the landline 6ft underground with the equipment, and not security, who were on the surface with a 2-way radio and assigned to protect the maintenance guys? And why did nobody ever fire their weapons at the UFO as they were expected and trained to do? You're a lot of noise, Bobby, but not much else. If you've got something, show me. Please.

reply to post by Xtraeme


If they records existed they would have come up with the same FOIA request which brought up the "UFO rumor disproven" record as the security guard report would not have been any more classified.

As James Carlson details security guards are not trained to distinguish different types of "lights in the sky" over bases -- that's not their job -- and indeed there's going to be a lot of strange lights over bases.

On the other hand James Carlson also details that 1) Salas has been amazingly inconsistent about his report of Malstrom to the point of dishonesty 2) There was a very real reason the shut down happened.

Star and a Flag.

This is coming from a different angle and I find him to be sincere.

Drew Hempel: Figel tells the TWO security to record their UFO sighting in a report. So why didn't the UFO sighting by the two security guards get recorded in a report as Figel ordered?

RH: Each SAT team has two members. Figel sent out two teams, or four individuals.

As noted, the 341st SMW historian, David Gamble, told Jim Klotz that his initial comments about the UFO activity at Echo, in the wing history he was writing, were censored by his superiors. Presumably the guards did file their UFO reports (something noted by Boeing's Don Peterson, who mentioned it to Boeing engineer Kaminski) but no mention of their reports appeared in the censored history.

As for your statement that James Carlson figured out, and explains how, the missiles went down, that contradicts the statement of Robert Kaminski, the Boeing engineer who actually did the investigation, who said that *no* reason for the 10-missile failure could be determined. Reread, sloooowly, Drew, what Kaminski wrote to Klotz.

As I mentioned, Carlson conveniently omits any mention of Kaminski's comments in his own misguided summary of the case.

None of your questions are surprising, Drew, given your pathetic track record of making unsupported claims, and citing bogus "experts", rather than listening to the primary source testimony in these cases. (Or even reading that testimony *attentively* and accurately repeating it here.)

I have better things to do than trying to convince someone as biased and intellectually-challenged as you of anything. The others on this thread have enough data to make a decision about the facts.

James Carlson: You make a big deal out of the fact that I haven't spoken to Walt Figel, without seeming to realize that I don't need to --

RH: This sums it up nicely. No, let's not talk to the man who was actually with your father when the missiles went down, and who contradicts everything your father told you. Nope, we don't want to go there!

Originally posted by drew hempel
reply to post by Xtraeme

 

If they records existed they would have come up with the same FOIA request which brought up the "UFO rumor disproven" record as the security guard report would not have been any more classified.

I wish this were true. Most FOIA requests go to a specific office and the first line of defense is simply searching against a card catalog to see if there are any hits. If there aren't it's fairly common for the FOIA officer to send back the request stating that there were "no pertinent records found." If you're persistent and demand further investigation then they might go down to the boxes to actually physically look through the old paperwork.

Remember most of the old data hasn't been scanned into an electronic format so it requires a lot of manual leg-work. This gets more complicated in the sense that each division maintains its own paperwork. So you have to know which group specifically to send your request to if you want to get any results.

There was a very real reason the shut down happened.

I've never contested this if you look back in this post I actually call out the physical paperwork rather than simply alluding to it like everyone else here.

It's an illuminating read.

[edit on 13-2-2010 by Xtraeme]

reply to post by Robert Hastings


So Malstrom was not reported to Blue Book because the "rumor" of a UFO was completely covered up due to an unnamed security guard sighting?

Apparently there are still classified documents of this security guard? Is that what were waiting for -- because obviously Salas' whole Malstrom schtick is rife with inconsistencies -- as James details.

So we have 1) Salas' blatant inconsistencies 2) Censored reports about a secret security guard sighting which has only been documented as a "disproven rumor" 3) James Carlson providing a DETAILED explanation, based on his dad's information, for why the shut down occurred.

If someone comes along later and can not figure out why the shut down happened because they don't have inside knowledge that makes perfect sense to me.

reply to post by Xtraeme


Yeah but the FOIA result was the COMMAND HISTORY INVESTIGATION OF THE ECHO FLIGHT INCIDENT stating

all members of this Mobile Strike Task Force "were questioned and stated that no unusual activity or sightings were observed."

p. 57 -- James Carlson, Americans, Credulous....

So if the FOIA request got that information it should have gotten any related documents pertinent to that investigation.

Carlson also notes that other UFO sightings by nuclear missile bases were reported to Blue Book and if there had been a Malstrom sighting it would have to be reported to Blue Book -- as that was the command procedure.



[edit on 13-2-2010 by drew hempel]

Originally posted by drew hempel
reply to post by Xtraeme

 

Yeah but the FOIA result was the COMMAND HISTORY INVESTIGATION OF THE ECHO FLIGHT INCIDENT stating

all members of this Mobile Strike Task Force "were questioned and stated that no unusual activity or sightings were observed."

p. 57 -- James Carlson, Americans, Credulous....

So if the FOIA request got that information it should have gotten any related documents pertinent to that investigation.

If you remember after 9/11 Bush spent a lot of time talking the good of talk of making it easier for Departments to share information. There was a reason for this, things become extremely compartmentalized as they reach higher classifications.

Now if you notice with this Echo incident not all the documents were isolated to a single location. The Wing Command History gave an overview of the field reports, Boeing documentation, and Intelligence assessments which is exactly what we expect when the wing command historian comes in to interview the flight staff and review the official documents as they were placed on the record. There's a huge difference between a historical accounting, first hand witnesses, and the organization of documentation as it branches out amongst the numerous departments that make up the US government.

To assume that a single FOIA request would capture all related information, especially as it relates to an incident that had massive implications for the entire defense structure of the United States is naive.

reply to post by Robert Hastings


More questions: Why do you always counter my questions about Echo Flight or Malmstrom AFB in March 1967 with pages and pages of information from your very flawed book about NOTHING having to do with those topics? Who are you trying to persuade here? Do you think I care about nuclear reactors, Ruppelt, or anything else having to do with your fetish-like fascination with UFOs? I've gotta tell you, I don't. I don't care. Nothing you waste my time with has any bearing at all on the only thing I care about here: whether or not UFOs shut down Echo Flight or any other flights at Malmstrom in March 1967. That is the limit of my interest in you and anything you've ever said or written. That's it. Show me why you believe what you believe is true as it relates to March 1967 -- everything else you've got just bores the hell out of me. You make these wild claims that you haven't supported very well, and when someone comes to you and points this out and shows you exactly why you're wrong, and exactly how you've misinterpreted the topic of discussion, you get angry and start throwing irrelevant information around. I don't want to change your mind about UFOs or about their supposed fascination with nuclear facilities -- I don't give a damn about UFOs and I don't care that you think they're an interesting subject; a lot of people do -- why in the world would that bother me? But what you guys have done is unconscionable and sickening. You published lies about my father, even going so far as to claim he confirmed this ridiculous story, when he very clearly has not. And rather than answer the questions regarding the events of March 1967 that I've put to you publically, you chose instead to publish that my father told you I was psychologically disturbed -- and although that isn't true, I still reacted with anger -- but I also reacted by writing an entire book, well researched and fully footnoted, all consisting of facts that you refuse to discuss or counter in any way except to point out that in SOME WAY your version of these events must be correct because of everything else you've documented over thirty years or so that has nothing to do with March 1967, and never has. Is it surprising to you that for these reasons I think you have no valid argument to make? And if you are surprised, where is your evidence that UFOs were involved? Why do you refuse to take into account what has been so patently and plainly documented? Why do you believe that a man who has repeatedly told you that he did not consider the phone calls he received to be a valid UFO report for over thirty years, that he thought then and for decades afterward that those guys were just "yanking my chain", simply didn't realize that they were telling him truth, when nobody ever mentioned it afterwards, nobody ever discussed UFOs with him again, and nobody ever bothered to investigate the UFOs? Why did the entire Echo Flight Incident investigation center immediately on faulty equipment in guidance and control units if a UFO did the job? If a UFO was seen over one of the silos, why were all of them shut down at the same time from the LCF -- which was also proven in the investigation? Why were the errors received exactly like those received at Alpha Flight in December 1966 if UFOs shut their flight down? Did UFOs also shut down Alpha Flight? It was daylight when Echo Flight went down, so why did nobody else see anything, even though there were at least 2 other teams out at the time, not to mention those guys at November Flight? Why has Salas claimed that it was very rare for missiles to go offline, when documents all over the place assert that missiles were going down all the time in '66-'68? Why do you ignore all of the inconsistencies that I've documented in your witness' reports? Why don't you read my book before trying to discuss it?

reply to post by Xtraeme


Which is why it was not even reported to Blue Book and not classified "Above Top Secret"?

If it was "censored" then why was "UFO rumor" even mentioned in the investigation?

Also what about the very specific reason for the shut down which James gives -- it makes complete sense?

Also why did the UFO sighting occur by someone who was underground? The maintenance person was clearly JOKING -- and James' dad confirmed that it was a

JOKE

and the investigation confirmed it was a JOKE.

End of story.

If Figel told the security guards to make a report then that report would obviously be included in an investigation which covered the reason for the shut down.

Also why would nothing about the UFOs be known until Salas comes along and blatantly misrepresents the whole scenario?