Hamas accepts Israel's right to exist

Originally posted by mmiichael
Hi. I respect your right to hold any religious beliefs you want.

As to what God wants. Well he doesn't communicate directly with me, and I don't take the word of various self-appointed religious spokesmen as to what He does or doesn't want.

I think notions like the Second Temple are metaphors. Closer to legends or mythology qite frankly. Rational people give lip service to cherished stories from liturgical writings from the distant past. But try to deal with the practical realities of the present.

None of us should feel we are informed of what is God's intent.



M

You are not well informed on spiritual matters as you are politically or militaristically! Interesting.

Well, if you did a little digging all by yourself, you would quickly realize that the building of the second temple is happening. They already have a lot of the props made and ready. It's only a matter of time now. There is nothing metaphorical about what I am telling you!

It is equally as arrogant to think that God hasn't been telling you all along what He thinks. It means you haven't even been listening.

I hope things go well for you.

Originally posted by TarzanBeta
You are not well informed on spiritual matters as you are politically or militaristically! Interesting.

Well, if you did a little digging all by yourself, you would quickly realize that the building of the second temple is happening. They already have a lot of the props made and ready. It's only a matter of time now. There is nothing metaphorical about what I am telling you!

It is equally as arrogant to think that God hasn't been telling you all along what He thinks. It means you haven't even been listening.

I hope things go well for you.

Thanks for the thought. I wish you well, too.

Not a thing that can be argued, but I think it is no one's place to interpret what a Supreme Deity wants or plans.

For me the Second Temple is part of a myth cycle. The word of it has been delivered by ordinary men, no matter how much they may delude themselves as to being escalated spiritually.

Men are often wrong. They often misunderstand or misinterpret intent. They often deceive. They often self-deceive.

Don't believe everything you read.


M

yeah!another false flag on it's way,i don't think this announcement will stop Israels' policy of expansion, and if following the ideas of a book written about them, by them, that gives them credence, i think this is the way they will go.

[edit on 21-1-2010 by pauldamo]

This will change nothing, if Israel wanted peace they would have it already.

You can not steal land and practice outright apartheid during peace-time.

When I hear Israel stating that the Palestinians have a right to a homeland, and the right to share resources I will see light at the end of the tunnel.

Originally posted by Mdv2

[edit on 21-1-2010 by Mdv2]

Now, let us look at this "huge land grab" in the context of geographical considerations:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/00ab63ba7688.jpg[/atsimg]

I can't believe how greedy those Israelis are, can you?

I've never really understood these types of threads.This may be extremely blunt... but who cares? If a bunch of religious fanatics want to kill each other... then where's the down-side? The only issue I could possibly have is the kids mixed up in the middle of it all, who really have no say-so either way. Obviously the jews think they are some kind of superior race that 'god' chose, and everyone else can sit on it, and rotate. Hmmm, that sounds disturbingly familiar... The muslims are just more of the same. Same tune, different singer. If the whole of the country just fell into the ocean I'm sure the world would be a better place.

Chrono

reply to post by Dark Ghost


By your standards it would be acceptable for Israel to just take a little extra? Perhaps Lebanon? Come on, it's not much look just another tiny chunk...

It's massively greedy to want to hold onto more land than they were ever entitled to. The fact they have proven time and time again that they are unwilling to share this land with the original occupiers is reason enough to call greed. I guess, based on your thinking, we should give up the UK to druids/pagans who would perhaps let us keep Cornwall and maybe a few parts of the Midlands... but nothing else, and would fire upon us if we entered 'their territory'. Sounds silly right? But it holds as much weight as Israelis claim to the land. Regardless of the actual landmass it's about the percentage of the land they are taking and still not relenting on ceasing new areas.

As for the guys above arguing the religious implications - it doesn't matter whether or not God speaks to one side or the other. As soon as one life is lost, as soon as one person is permanently injured it disproves anyone's God. I vote for a newly reformed UN consisting solely of Athiest/Agnostics. I guarantee theres a fair and just solution when you take the deity argument out of the frame. This is one of the greatest stumbling blocks of human progression - the failure to relinquish childish notions of a being greater then they in order to fill a selfish need to feel ruled, disciplined, rewarded, justified and correct. What greater is an alibi than to place motive with a disprovable myth. One which should hold as much sway, and less proof, than the loch ness monster vs bigfoot.

Lose religion, gain respect. I'm only interested in the humanitarian implications of a ceasefire, as should anyone. Any other interest be it financial, religious or property based is aside the point and serves the interest of only those who gain, meaning there has to be a 'loser'.

In 2006 Hamas offered a hunda... this time they haven't mentioned that at all, at least from the articles I've seen. So I still applaud the attempt to open dialogue with the stipulations they have placed on the 1967 agreement, which sees very little change to Israels amount of land occupied. If anyone considers the request is unfair I ask that you give up the same percentage of area of your own home to the homeless, as Palestine have to Israel, and let's see how long it takes for sympathy to wear out.

reply to post by Pr0t0


Its the same old same old thing that goes on in the middle east. Kill enough people and everyone will listen. Hamas and Hezbollah killed a bunch of Israelis to force them to accept their right to exist and themselves as a threat. Israel does the same, now one accepts them.

It's politics as usual in the good old Middle East.

Quick resolution would be if Israel built huge amount of houses on the west bank and then freely gave all the citizens in the crowded and overpopulated Gaza their own home there. After that the Gaza strip will belong to Israel for good and the west bank is made a permanent Palestine for good. An iron clad peace treaty is then signed by both parts monitored by international superpowers and the press all over the world. The cost for this building process would be costless compared to the ongoing conflicts for the last 50 years.

As a grand finale they should let Israel demolish the dome of the rock, build their 3rd temple on the temple mount, sacrifice some lambs and flawless cows, chant and then party for 3 weeks in a row.

Yasher koach


[edit on 22-1-2010 by rhines]

Originally posted by Chronogoblin
I've never really understood these types of threads.This may be extremely blunt... but who cares? If a bunch of religious fanatics want to kill each other... then where's the down-side? The only issue I could possibly have is the kids mixed up in the middle of it all, who really have no say-so either way. Obviously the jews think they are some kind of superior race that 'god' chose, and everyone else can sit on it, and rotate. Hmmm, that sounds disturbingly familiar... The muslims are just more of the same. Same tune, different singer. If the whole of the country just fell into the ocean I'm sure the world would be a better place.

Chrono

Maybe I can help you understand.
If you are a non-muslim then Islam is obligated to kill you.
Islam is starting with the elimination of Israel, then they will move on to the Christians. Probably NYC and Washington DC and LA.
Better perspective to help you understand?

Originally posted by Pr0t0
By your standards it would be acceptable for Israel to just take a little extra? Perhaps Lebanon? Come on, it's not much look just another tiny chunk...

No that's not what I am saying or implying. I am talking about accepting a country's right to exist. If you cannot compete militarily or financially with another people, don't go to war. The "expansion" of Israeli borders are a direct result of coalitions of surrounding countries attempting to invade and destroy the land Israel gained through war. In war, the weaker side usually loses land. This is a sad reality, but it is a reality nonetheless.

My picture was intended to illustrate how geographically small the region happens to be, and unless you have a certain agenda, you are ignorantly overlooking the Land Thefts of much bigger countries with much higher populations. Why the need to focus on such a small piece of land when other countries have and continue to do much worse? What makes Israel so special? If they were so keen on expansion, why has it taken them 60+ years to acquire this land? Do you think there is a difference between expansion and preservation?

It's massively greedy to want to hold onto more land than they were ever entitled to. The fact they have proven time and time again that they are unwilling to share this land with the original occupiers is reason enough to call greed.

Every time they have returned land, they have never had the pleasure of peace and safety. A small faction of Palestinian terrorists continue to exploit the land that is given to them in their desire to wipe out a people they hate dearly. Unfortunately, all Palestinians suffer as a result of this. The options for Israel are very limited. Their past decisions to return land have been met with negative consequences. I still believe the whole Israeli stance is to do with land preservation, not expansion. Of course, some people argue that any land Israel has is illegal and thus no matter what they do, they are to blame and in the wrong. Kind of a lose-lose situation isn't it?

I guess, based on your thinking, we should give up the UK to druids/pagans who would perhaps let us keep Cornwall and maybe a few parts of the Midlands... but nothing else, and would fire upon us if we entered 'their territory'. Sounds silly right? But it holds as much weight as Israelis claim to the land. Regardless of the actual landmass it's about the percentage of the land they are taking and still not relenting on ceasing new areas.

We both know the conflict is not as clear-cut as the comparison you have given. The reality is that both Israelis and Palestinians have obligations towards making sacrifices for peace. I support a two-state solution by the way. Although, mine would involve both parties making realistic sacrifices for peace and security.

[edit on 22/1/2010 by Dark Ghost]

Don't hold your breath guys...
"Palestinian Legislative Council speaker Aziz Dweik on Thursday denied reports by Israeli news outlets that he said on Wednesday Israel has a right to exist.

"The media reports in question were inaccurate," he said in a statement, adding that since his release from an Israeli prison last year, Israeli news outlets have repeatedly misrepresented his views.

The Jerusalem Post, an English-language Israeli newspaper, quoted Dweik as saying on Wednesday that the Islamic movement has accepted Israel's right to exist and would be prepared to nullify its charter, which calls for dismantling the state."

www.maannews.net...

Originally posted by Pr0t0
In 2006 Hamas offered a hunda... this time they haven't mentioned that at all, at least from the articles I've seen.

That doesn't mean peace. That means this is the last chance in Islamic terms. After the hunda is over then it's all out war.
Hunda is a call to prepare for battle. When the time period is over then the battle begins. That's Islamic tradition.

Sure we would like to think this means peace because we are good minded people. But in fact, Islamic terms mean something quite different.
With Iran preparing nukes, Pakistan aiming their 100 nukes which are in the hands of AQ/ISI/Taliban, Somaila ceasing the shipping lanes, cells placed and waiting in the UK and US, Yemen and Syria new hotspots, and Chavez (OPEC Member) picking up the slack across the ocean then it looks like Israel is surrounded on all sides when the battle begins.

Of course the US will leave Israel out in the cold. We have our troops scattered and thin and can't afford to lend a hand. We are occupied with Venezuela, Haiti, protecting our Mexican border, flushing out Islamic terrorism cells, increased domestic crime and anger due to economic conditions, Afghanistan and Iraq, natural disasters in California mud and Florida freeze, and it's only the beginning of 2010.

A peace agreement is taqiyya and a psychological move to let everyone take a breath. That allows the soul to reach heaven as bodies are killed in a massive attack. Hunda is a concept that is serious and not what we believe in Western terms.

I don't know quite what to make of this. It's very out of the blue.

Two thoughts spring to mind:

Cynical thought: Hamas is concerned about losing control of Gaza to other militant factions and is seeking to boost its standing with the world to retain legitimacy

Optimistic thought: Hamas genuinely wants to improve relations with Israel and this could be the first step in the direction of reconciliation.

Oh and a third thought: Hamas people say a lot of things, and a lot of those things turn out to be lies.

If they do actually change their charter then I'll be glad. The world will keep them to their word, and as the OP says Israel will have to respond somehow, either by easing border restrictions or starting some sort of dialogue. That will surely be a good thing for Israelis and for people living in Gaza.

I'll watch the situation unfold with interest.

[edit on 22-1-2010 by mattpryor]

Originally posted by pauldamo
yeah!another false flag on it's way,i don't think this announcement will stop Israels' policy of expansion, and if following the ideas of a book written about them, by them, that gives them credence, i think this is the way they will go.

[edit on 21-1-2010 by pauldamo]

How would life really be without the thought that everything is a false flag. Oh, it would be... reality.
Just the cost effectiveness of these supposed false flags doesn't add up, further, common sense allows one to realize that efforts to deceive aren't spent on commoners.

Originally posted by JJay55
That doesn't mean peace. That means this is the last chance in Islamic terms. After the hunda is over then it's all out war.
Hunda is a call to prepare for battle. When the time period is over then the battle begins. That's Islamic tradition.

Sure we would like to think this means peace because we are good minded people. But in fact, Islamic terms mean something quite different.
With Iran preparing nukes, Pakistan aiming their 100 nukes which are in the hands of AQ/ISI/Taliban, Somaila ceasing the shipping lanes, cells placed and waiting in the UK and US, Yemen and Syria new hotspots, and Chavez (OPEC Member) picking up the slack across the ocean then it looks like Israel is surrounded on all sides when the battle begins.

Of course the US will leave Israel out in the cold. We have our troops scattered and thin and can't afford to lend a hand. We are occupied with Venezuela, Haiti, protecting our Mexican border, flushing out Islamic terrorism cells, increased domestic crime and anger due to economic conditions, Afghanistan and Iraq, natural disasters in California mud and Florida freeze, and it's only the beginning of 2010.

A peace agreement is taqiyya and a psychological move to let everyone take a breath. That allows the soul to reach heaven as bodies are killed in a massive attack. Hunda is a concept that is serious and not what we believe in Western terms.

You might be on to something there, very thought-provoking post.

Is the world being set up for something big? In all seriousness, I just had a "click" moment after reading your post. It all fits in so well. What are the two biggest threats to Islamic Jihad? Israel and the USA. The best time to strike your enemy is when they are at their weakest. How would you rate the strength of the USA at the moment compared to a decade ago? What about the reputation of Israel?

How about border security and regulation in the West? How about the number of immigrants? The decrease in military personnel present inside their own countries?

It is almost the perfect time to strike Israel. All that is needed is a catastrophic type of event to make it look like Western aggression has crossed the line by attacking a scared Islamic structure.

It has become so clear. We have overlooked the asnwer. We have been fooled and decieved into focussing on the wrong enemy.

The nation that holds all the money, resources and influence needed for the successful destruction of Western Civilisation.

Saudi Arabia.

[edit on 22/1/2010 by Dark Ghost]

I'm sorry but anything that involves David Abraham is going to be as a dodgy as an Intelligence document prepared by Alistair Campbell.

www.dailymail.co.uk...

Give you an idea of how reputable this guy is ! In fact stick him and Tony Blair together as Middle East envoys and yes, grab your apocolypse suits, these divs would rob, steal and lie for a pork pie and a bag of crisps.

Originally posted by Dark Ghost


Saudi Arabia.

Dude we should have went to Saudi after 911, not Afghani.

Just my opinion.

I have always been extremely weary of their influence. It spreads far and around the world.

They are extremely powerful right now.

I also agree with many of the comments in this thread, and I thank you guys for pointing out some interesting information to me.

I guess things are about to heat up world wide. Oh well, not like I can prevent this snowball from rolling down the hill. Best I get out of the way.

Originally posted by mmiichael

Originally posted by Mdv2

I haven't seen anyone mentioning Hamas to be the good boys. They are terrorists, but the fact remains that they have significant power in Gaza and on a fair share of the Palestinian people. As I previously stated, Israel should be forced to engage in a dialog. Like I also stated, Hamas has equally often rejected to recognize Israel as they accepted it, but that cannot be a reason to stop further dialog. If you think like that, they could rather bomb Israel and the Palestinian territories. Each and every opportunity should be taken. I only doubt Israel is seriously interested in a two-state solution.

All due respect. Israel has found after dealing with Arab leaders and various factions that they never keep their word. Promises are frequently made. Every agreement is broken eventually.

Israel realizes whatever situation they create to accomodate Hamas will eventually be turned around to a disadvantage.

If you have a business partner that consistently lies and steals from you - and then promises not to do it again. But returns to the same pattern again and again - what do you do?

That is the real situation.

Unfortunate for all involved.

In your opinion!

breaking the ceasefire and committing war crimes and crimes against humanity in Gaza. Till date it has been building more and more settlements.

[edit on 21-1-2010 by December_Rain]

Kind of a one sided, statement there eh guy? Ask what Hesbollah and Hamas were doing prior to the Isreali offences? It takes two to tango!

I digress if Hamas is now declaring this without any other conditions..... Then I think this is a great thing for the middle east.